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Alexa says, 'Take the lane'



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 1st 17, 04:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Alexa says, 'Take the lane'

On 8/31/2017 9:43 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:12:12 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
... to put it much more briefly: No technique is perfect. That's true of
every human activity on earth.

But on the road you describe, is it usually better to ride near lane
center? Or is it usually better to hug the gutter as close as you can?


No, I'm a true believer of taking the lane in some places -- although the two of us may differ on when or where.

My point is that like any true believer, there is a certain amount of faith or self-delusion that taking the lane will be safer.


I can't characterize it as "faith or self-delusion." In my case, at
least, it's predicting a likely outcome based on thousands of
observations over many years. Nothing's perfect, but IME it's hundreds
to one that being lane-centered in a narrow lane helps more than it hurts.

It is often the case that the truly punctilious drivers will give you ten feet of clearance even when you're in the gutter or on the shoulder. It's odd. They'll sit behind you 'til the cows come home if you take the lane.


True. In some cases, I do wave them around. I suppose it may incur some
tiny risk of liability on my part, but I hate keeping an eye on those
timid drivers. Also, I feel a bit sorry for them.

And then other drivers will practically run you down when you take the lane. They get enraged and do stupid things to get around you, typically in tight spaces with oncoming traffic.


Yep. Nothing's perfect.

--
- Frank Krygowski
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  #22  
Old September 1st 17, 06:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 3,345
Default Alexa says, 'Take the lane'

On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 8:05:32 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/1/2017 9:54 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:02:23 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 5:56 PM,
wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/30/2017 10:33 AM,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 5:39:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3453744

There are some tunnels on the San Francisco Penesula that are damned scary. One in particular has you 100 yards into the approach on a slight downhill grade going 20 mph or so and there's a sign that reads "Bicycles not Recommended".

Coming from bright sunlight into the tunnel cars do NOT turn on their lights and bicycles become invisible as the cars speed up to 50+ mph. There is a shoulder wide enough that you aren't in too much danger.

But the other side of the tunnel you are in the number 1 lane of a freeway exit that is four lanes wide with cars exiting the freeway at 70+ mph.

Hugging the left curb until there's a break in traffic I managed to get across into the right shoulder but you can be damn certain I won't be making that mistake again.

Two blocks before that entrance there is a sign that says - "bicycles recommended route" - but there is a lot of truck traffic in that area and it's very easy to miss the sign while watching the traffic.

This is the sort of thing that causes Joerg to make his comments about bicycle paths. Of course as we all know this wouldn't even give Frank a pause.

There are certainly places that "give me pause." I recall years ago, on
a solo overnight camping trip, I rode toward Pittsburgh before heading
further south. At one point near rush hour I found myself trapped on a
limited access highway along a river, probably 45 mph speed limit with
two narrow lanes (maybe nine feet wide), rough pavement, high traffic
and a wall at my right side. I had to ride it for maybe two or three
miles before managing to get to an intersection where I could escape.

Cycling was legal there, but I wouldn't repeat the experience. It was
VERY unpleasant, and had I known the situation ahead of time I'd have
found some alternative. But sometimes these things happen, especially
riding in unfamiliar areas.

BTW, what did I do while riding that stretch of road? I controlled the
lane, of course. Yes, motorists didn't like it. Many honked. But there
was literally no alternative to riding lane center. Letting people
squeeze by without changing lanes would have been stupidly risky.

There, now that didn't hurt did it? That is, admitting that there are some times where vehicular riding just isn't right. I do vehicular riding as much as possible but there are simply times when a bike path is a relief.

Like many vehicular cycling skeptics, you're pretending that vehicular
cyclists say things they never say. You're constructing straw men to
argue against, as a way to pretend to yourself that you've won some
argument.

Of course there are roads that are better and roads that are worse. Some
are far worse. I've never said a cyclist can comfortably ride absolutely
everywhere. I don't know a single cyclist that has said that, and I've
met and corresponded with the most prominent people who have developed
and taught vehicular cycling techniques.


And all you're doing here is complaining that you were caught saying exactly the same thing as Joerg after telling him he's full of crap.


Joerg posted a photo of a totally empty, completely straight two lane
road in open country and said it was very dangerous.

I said riding in fast, dense rush hour traffic in a nine foot lane was
very unpleasant.

Are you claiming those two statements are exactly the same?


I can post a photo of Highland Rd. in the Livermore Valley that can be completely empty. When the freeways are full people will use these narrow roads as shortcuts going at or above freeway speeds and leaving no room at all for bicycles dodging potholes.

Are you suggesting that this wasn't the case with Joerg's photos?

It sounds to me like you're arguing purely to keep from looking like what you actually appear to be.
  #23  
Old September 1st 17, 07:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Alexa says, 'Take the lane'

On 9/1/2017 1:16 PM, wrote:
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 8:05:32 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/1/2017 9:54 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:02:23 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 5:56 PM,
wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/30/2017 10:33 AM,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 5:39:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3453744

There are some tunnels on the San Francisco Penesula that are damned scary. One in particular has you 100 yards into the approach on a slight downhill grade going 20 mph or so and there's a sign that reads "Bicycles not Recommended".

Coming from bright sunlight into the tunnel cars do NOT turn on their lights and bicycles become invisible as the cars speed up to 50+ mph. There is a shoulder wide enough that you aren't in too much danger.

But the other side of the tunnel you are in the number 1 lane of a freeway exit that is four lanes wide with cars exiting the freeway at 70+ mph.

Hugging the left curb until there's a break in traffic I managed to get across into the right shoulder but you can be damn certain I won't be making that mistake again.

Two blocks before that entrance there is a sign that says - "bicycles recommended route" - but there is a lot of truck traffic in that area and it's very easy to miss the sign while watching the traffic.

This is the sort of thing that causes Joerg to make his comments about bicycle paths. Of course as we all know this wouldn't even give Frank a pause.

There are certainly places that "give me pause." I recall years ago, on
a solo overnight camping trip, I rode toward Pittsburgh before heading
further south. At one point near rush hour I found myself trapped on a
limited access highway along a river, probably 45 mph speed limit with
two narrow lanes (maybe nine feet wide), rough pavement, high traffic
and a wall at my right side. I had to ride it for maybe two or three
miles before managing to get to an intersection where I could escape.

Cycling was legal there, but I wouldn't repeat the experience. It was
VERY unpleasant, and had I known the situation ahead of time I'd have
found some alternative. But sometimes these things happen, especially
riding in unfamiliar areas.

BTW, what did I do while riding that stretch of road? I controlled the
lane, of course. Yes, motorists didn't like it. Many honked. But there
was literally no alternative to riding lane center. Letting people
squeeze by without changing lanes would have been stupidly risky.

There, now that didn't hurt did it? That is, admitting that there are some times where vehicular riding just isn't right. I do vehicular riding as much as possible but there are simply times when a bike path is a relief.

Like many vehicular cycling skeptics, you're pretending that vehicular
cyclists say things they never say. You're constructing straw men to
argue against, as a way to pretend to yourself that you've won some
argument.

Of course there are roads that are better and roads that are worse. Some
are far worse. I've never said a cyclist can comfortably ride absolutely
everywhere. I don't know a single cyclist that has said that, and I've
met and corresponded with the most prominent people who have developed
and taught vehicular cycling techniques.

And all you're doing here is complaining that you were caught saying exactly the same thing as Joerg after telling him he's full of crap.


Joerg posted a photo of a totally empty, completely straight two lane
road in open country and said it was very dangerous.

I said riding in fast, dense rush hour traffic in a nine foot lane was
very unpleasant.

Are you claiming those two statements are exactly the same?


I can post a photo of Highland Rd. in the Livermore Valley that can be completely empty. When the freeways are full people will use these narrow roads as shortcuts going at or above freeway speeds and leaving no room at all for bicycles dodging potholes.

Are you suggesting that this wasn't the case with Joerg's photos?


IIRC, he made no reference to large variations in traffic causing the
problem. He seemed to be saying that most of the occasional pickup truck
drivers passing by would be semi-murderous. And he posted a photo of an
empty road.

We have some roads around here that are fine at 1 PM, but nasty at 5 PM.
But those roads don't magically get better if I ride at the edge of the
pavement; they get worse, because of dangerously close passes, so if I
have to ride them I ride centered in the narrow lane.

BTW, on the worst one, I have pulled into driveways occasionally to let
a queue of cars get past me. This too is pretty standard practice,
despite what the skeptics pretend.

(That road's a narrow two-lane. At rush hour, I usually prefer the
alternative, much heavier traffic four-lane.)

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #24  
Old September 2nd 17, 10:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 6,374
Default Alexa says, 'Take the lane'

YELLOWSTONE developed touring shoulders ..eg there's a company 'BACKROADS'...

Blue shirts ... hard to see

Frequent upscale long distance rigs.

AAA weather. In facto the valley across the Snake River plain n Idaho Falls US 20 area onto West Yellowstone is AAA

I had a luxurious rest day in the sun on the new folding chair atop the main fault on Big Horn Mtn' trail head. Yum.

Now at the Lake 9/1, quality of life decreased dramaticalky. Like like the influx set fire to the mtn. Yak.

Worth a visit. Lotta older riders on the faithful route along the Firehole.
  #25  
Old September 2nd 17, 12:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 6,374
Default Alexa says, 'Take the lane'

A ride for J...hammer n be hunted.





  #26  
Old September 2nd 17, 01:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 6,374
Default Alexa says, 'Take the lane'

Nyack is uh unusually left over

“We’re not trying to put some spaceship in your neighborhood,” he said. “We want to create something that fits in with its character.”

Maybe several 22M AC YACHTS from Herreshoff.

I would be threatened for driving thru in my 90pt 544...a RT 9 lover.

Remeber , Jersey was all downhill after the bridge.

divinity deleted the old Bridge was abear at 3AM
  #27  
Old September 2nd 17, 02:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 6,374
Default Alexa says, 'Take the lane'

We are off for the early boid at OL Faithful
 




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