Rear Wheel Alignment

On 30/10/2015 00:29, John B. wrote:

One side has a threaded hole, i.e., the adjusting screw is not there
at all and the other side has the body of the screw completely filling
the hole, i.e., both ends broken off flush with the drop out.

The thread is an M3-something thus the I.D. of the threaded hole is
about 2.5mm.

Ok. So if you do nothing you've got the option of pulling it all the way
to the end of the dropout and it being aligned - or aren't they
straight, or is it too far back? It seems like you're in the position
you'd be in with no screws, which seems entirely reasonable.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 05:10:53 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 30/10/2015 00:29, John B. wrote:

One side has a threaded hole, i.e., the adjusting screw is not there
at all and the other side has the body of the screw completely filling
the hole, i.e., both ends broken off flush with the drop out.

The thread is an M3-something thus the I.D. of the threaded hole is
about 2.5mm.

Ok. So if you do nothing you've got the option of pulling it all the way
to the end of the dropout and it being aligned - or aren't they
straight, or is it too far back? It seems like you're in the position
you'd be in with no screws, which seems entirely reasonable.

Assuming that the two "dropouts" are aligned then of course you are
correct. But what does one do if they are not? Scrap the frame?
--
cheers,

John B.

On 10/29/2015 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 19:07:32 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 29/10/2015 11:17, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 02:55:19 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 29/10/2015 01:42, John B. wrote:

In brief, attempting to remove the broken screw presents the
possibility of damage to the frame end while not removing it means
that the wheel will likely further away from the derailer then on the
usual vertical drop out frame end. So the question is, is this
meaningful?

Comments?

I'd be tempted to file the bit of the screw inside the dropout off.

Can't, there is no "end" there :-(

If there's no end on either side, surely the dropouts are just as if
there were no screws in them at all? You said there's a bit of broken
screw inside the drop out, but then that there's nothing. Maybe a
picture would help?

One side has a threaded hole, i.e., the adjusting screw is not there
at all and the other side has the body of the screw completely filling
the hole, i.e., both ends broken off flush with the drop out.

The thread is an M3-something thus the I.D. of the threaded hole is
about 2.5mm.
--
cheers,

John B.


DIN metric m3x0.5. Taps and stainless screws are readily
available.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/29/2015 8:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:14:24 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 10/29/2015 2:16 PM, Barry Beams wrote:
Encountered a stuck dropout adjuster on an old Schwinn Paramount frame, and the adjuster did free up by doing this.
Like any stuck screw or bolt, spray with PB Blaster and let soak for a few minutes. If still stuck, soak more and let sit for a few hours. Also can use a small flame tip of a propane torch to heat the bolt at the head and thread ends. You may then have to touch up the frame's paint if not careful.

Btw, Been lurking the list since some comments on my lights appeared. I'll be glad to discuss and demo my lights privately with anyone. The uninformed discussion that went on on this list behind my back, without copying me or inviting me to comment, showed that this isn't a forum to have a lively techie discussion without encountering trolls and self appointed experts who try to contradict, in my case, entities like the US Patent Office, NASA, top recognized professional experts in optics, LED driver circuits, lean startup marketing methodology, and others around Silicon Valley.
Barry
www.barrybeams.com


On Thursday, October 29, 2015 at 5:23:35 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/28/2015 8:42 PM, John B. wrote:

The new(old) bike frame that I am slowly rebuilding into a light road
bike, has horizontal, the opening facing forward, frame ends on the
rear triangle, as did many older bikes. Unfortunately the R.H.
adjusting screw is frozen in the frame end and so far efforts to
remove it have failed and I am afraid to get too aggressive as there
isn't that much metal available that one wants to take the chance of
drilling and having the drill go off center.

What I have been thinking about doing is, perhaps, braze a shim,
perhaps 1/8" - 1/4" thick into the R.H. frame end, to establish a
fixed position for the R.H. axle end, and use the L.H. adjustment
screw, which is not installed and the threaded hole is in good
condition, to align the wheel.

The problem is that if both the right and left hand screws are
installed than the rear axle can aligned and also can be moved forward
in the slot by about one inch so the question is whether this is a
critical measurement.

Moving the axle will of course vary the distance between the upper
derailer pulley and the free hub but riding the bike with its
originally install derailer and the wheel as far back in the frame end
as possible and other bikes using vertical drop outs that have had the
upper idler pulley at various distances from the free hub, seem to
indicate that the distance between the derailer pulley and the cogs is
not a critical factor (which is not to say that it can be completely
ignored).

In brief, attempting to remove the broken screw presents the
possibility of damage to the frame end while not removing it means
that the wheel will likely further away from the derailer then on the
usual vertical drop out frame end. So the question is, is this
meaningful?

Comments?



--
cheers,

John B.


Here's the spec for that:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/sisend.html

If needed there were bolt-in axle stops in the olden days,
probably simpler and cleaner than a brazed stop. Some French
bikes also had a nylon slip-in axle stop, easily fabricated.

Well, if you're decrying a lack of civility in modern
culture generally and on usenet in particular, that's not news!

Nobody I know feels any obligation to forward later usenet
discussions to the OP.

Back to tech, if it is important enough to Mr Slocumb, he's
well aware of EDM screw removal service which is the
ultimate 'killer app', almost like magic.


Yes, in fact I worked in a shop that had one back in, maybe, 1970. One
of the guys in the shop went to considerable effort and made a set of
coining dies to make fake 25 cent coins figuring that he could get a
cold drink and some change from the coke machine. Unfortunately
Coca-Cola had all ready figured that out and brass 25 cent coins, no
matter how beautifully made, wouldn't work. :-(

The problem is that in a still somewhat primitive (but very
economical) 3rd world country where even translating E+D+M doesn't
come up with a usable description :-). "Electric machine that eats
steel"?

p.s. Many usenet contributors eschew top posting.

In studying the Usenet I am often reminded of a quotation from the
Marquis de Sade's writing, that "Truth titillates the imagination far
less than fiction" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.


"Electric machine that eats steel"

That's an accurate description
http://www.brokentap.com/services.html



--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/30/2015 7:10 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 05:10:53 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 30/10/2015 00:29, John B. wrote:

One side has a threaded hole, i.e., the adjusting screw is not there
at all and the other side has the body of the screw completely filling
the hole, i.e., both ends broken off flush with the drop out.

The thread is an M3-something thus the I.D. of the threaded hole is
about 2.5mm.

Ok. So if you do nothing you've got the option of pulling it all the way
to the end of the dropout and it being aligned - or aren't they
straight, or is it too far back? It seems like you're in the position
you'd be in with no screws, which seems entirely reasonable.

Assuming that the two "dropouts" are aligned then of course you are
correct. But what does one do if they are not? Scrap the frame?

I mentioned the clamp-on axle stops that I have installed in my utility
bike. These seem to be functionally the same:
http://surlybikes.com/parts/small_parts/monkey_nuts

This shows them installed:
http://surlybikes.com//uploads/downl...Monkey_Nut.pdf

Surley uses these in front of the rear axle, on a bike with rear-opening
dropouts, to prevent the chain from pulling the wheel forward. You'd
want them behind the rear axle.

And Andrew mentioned that plastic ones are easily fabricated. Ditto
metal ones, say cut out of 1/4" thick aluminum plate via bandsaw and
file. Once you got the dimensions correct, they could simply be glued
into place. They don't carry any significant load.

--
- Frank Krygowski

- AMuzi / Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:59:52 +0100

On 10/29/2015 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:

The thread is an M3-something thus the I.D. of the threaded hole is
about 2.5mm.

DIN metric m3x0.5. Taps and stainless screws are readily
available.


Right, standard M3 thread.

.... here

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrisches_ISO-Gewinde#Regelgewinde_allgemeiner_Anwendung_.28DIN. C2.A013-1.29

.... standard measures of metric screws, nuts and tools can be found.
It is in German; the English language wiki entry is not comprehensive.

Column 1 is the nominal dimension
col 2 the standard thread pitch,
col 4 is the free diameter of a fitting nut
(as measured with a caliper -
the outer screw diameter measured in this way is coarsely
the 'M'-value in millimeters)
col 7-9 is the tool size required
(hex / Allen cilynder head / Allen rounded or countersunk head)
col 10 is the smallest hole size the screw fits through


jk


--
no sig

On 30/10/2015 11:10, John B. wrote:

Ok. So if you do nothing you've got the option of pulling it all the way
to the end of the dropout and it being aligned - or aren't they
straight, or is it too far back? It seems like you're in the position
you'd be in with no screws, which seems entirely reasonable.

Assuming that the two "dropouts" are aligned then of course you are
correct. But what does one do if they are not? Scrap the frame?

Put the wheel in slightly more carefully?

Hope the alignment is such that the dropout which needs the back end
moving forwards is the one with the screw which works, so you can use
that to adjust it?

The axle doesn't have to be snug against something to work, it's just
slightly easier to put the wheel in if it is. Anybody using single speed
or hub gears where the horizontal dropout is the adjuster knows you have
to align both sides manually - no different from a derailleur bike if
you have one missing screw.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 07:59:52 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 10/29/2015 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 19:07:32 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 29/10/2015 11:17, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 02:55:19 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 29/10/2015 01:42, John B. wrote:

In brief, attempting to remove the broken screw presents the
possibility of damage to the frame end while not removing it means
that the wheel will likely further away from the derailer then on the
usual vertical drop out frame end. So the question is, is this
meaningful?

Comments?

I'd be tempted to file the bit of the screw inside the dropout off.

Can't, there is no "end" there :-(

If there's no end on either side, surely the dropouts are just as if
there were no screws in them at all? You said there's a bit of broken
screw inside the drop out, but then that there's nothing. Maybe a
picture would help?

One side has a threaded hole, i.e., the adjusting screw is not there
at all and the other side has the body of the screw completely filling
the hole, i.e., both ends broken off flush with the drop out.

The thread is an M3-something thus the I.D. of the threaded hole is
about 2.5mm.
--
cheers,

John B.


DIN metric m3x0.5. Taps and stainless screws are readily
available.

Yes, I utilize the services of a marine shop that has, literally, a
wall covered with little drawers holding stainless fasteners from
something like 2 mm to something like 5/8".

--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 17:19:53 +0100, "Jakob Krieger"
wrote:

- AMuzi / Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:59:52 +0100

On 10/29/2015 7:29 PM, John B. wrote:

The thread is an M3-something thus the I.D. of the threaded hole is
about 2.5mm.

DIN metric m3x0.5. Taps and stainless screws are readily
available.


Right, standard M3 thread.

... here

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrisches_ISO-Gewinde#Regelgewinde_allgemeiner_Anwendung_.28DIN. C2.A013-1.29

... standard measures of metric screws, nuts and tools can be found.
It is in German; the English language wiki entry is not comprehensive.

Column 1 is the nominal dimension
col 2 the standard thread pitch,
col 4 is the free diameter of a fitting nut
(as measured with a caliper -
the outer screw diameter measured in this way is coarsely
the 'M'-value in millimeters)
col 7-9 is the tool size required
(hex / Allen cilynder head / Allen rounded or countersunk head)
col 10 is the smallest hole size the screw fits through


jk

And one doesn't even need to read German, We have this document in
English too :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:36:10 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/30/2015 7:10 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 05:10:53 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 30/10/2015 00:29, John B. wrote:

One side has a threaded hole, i.e., the adjusting screw is not there
at all and the other side has the body of the screw completely filling
the hole, i.e., both ends broken off flush with the drop out.

The thread is an M3-something thus the I.D. of the threaded hole is
about 2.5mm.

Ok. So if you do nothing you've got the option of pulling it all the way
to the end of the dropout and it being aligned - or aren't they
straight, or is it too far back? It seems like you're in the position
you'd be in with no screws, which seems entirely reasonable.

Assuming that the two "dropouts" are aligned then of course you are
correct. But what does one do if they are not? Scrap the frame?

I mentioned the clamp-on axle stops that I have installed in my utility
bike. These seem to be functionally the same:
http://surlybikes.com/parts/small_parts/monkey_nuts

This shows them installed:
http://surlybikes.com//uploads/downl...Monkey_Nut.pdf

Surley uses these in front of the rear axle, on a bike with rear-opening
dropouts, to prevent the chain from pulling the wheel forward. You'd
want them behind the rear axle.

And Andrew mentioned that plastic ones are easily fabricated. Ditto
metal ones, say cut out of 1/4" thick aluminum plate via bandsaw and
file. Once you got the dimensions correct, they could simply be glued
into place. They don't carry any significant load.

True, but as I will be brazing other things on the frame why not just
braze one more :-)

(After all, the fervent warnings about the dangers of using rivnuts I
wouldn't dare to use them on a light weight frame so I use braze-on's
instead.... I've have yet to be warned about the dangers of that :-)

--
cheers,

John B.