Chinese Carbon Wheelset

On Monday, 26 August 2019 12:25:27 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/25/2019 7:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I went to meet my neighbor for a ride, and he says, hey, could you try riding my bike, it just isn't shifting well. So I got on his bike (which is way too small), and it had an odd shifting issue that didn't quite feel like new chain/cassette issues. It was subtle and more like a loose freehub body. So I tell him that, and he goes, O.K., let me check. He pops off the cassettes, checks the body, which isn't loose, but the cones on his Campy hub/wheel are a little loose, so he pulls out his cone wrenches, adjusts the hub, throws the cassettes back on and pops the wheel back in his Pinarello. Shifts like a charm. Took 8 minutes.

Yes, some people are good bike mechanics. Most people are not.

This will always be the case. Different people know different things,
which is OK. But I think it's a bad idea to push actually fragile
equipment to people who need rugged reliability a lot more than tiny
improvements in speed.

Grrrrrr. Rugged reliability! You know, I've never seen anyone force a super-light bike on someone, and I've been to a lot of bike shops. My son sold bikes and let people make stupid purchases, but they were usually double suspended fat bikes and other odd-ball bikes. He worked in Specialized and Trek shops, and I don't recall one instance of him forcing an S-Works Tarmac on some unsuspecting old lady or a Madone.

I'm not accusing (most) bike shop people of pushing Madones on old
ladies... even though I had a friend who decided to get into biking at
about age 65, and was sold a similar bike. I suspect the guy's (much
younger) cyclist girl friend was responsible for the bad choice, but the
shop certainly abetted the decision. (The guy gave up riding after a few
months.)

But I think the industry does tend to promote unneeded sophistication
and, in some cases, fragility. It's parallel to the auto industry
pushing SUVs - each unit is much more profitable.

It's not just carbon fiber. How about gearing? Only a microscopic
percentage of cyclists get any benefit out of more than 8 rear cogs.
Everyone with 9, and especially 10 or 11, pay for more expensive parts
that are less failure tolerant and wear quicker.

How about all the bottom bracket standards we've (or rather, you've)
gone through? Each one intended to be lighter and stiffer - and weirder.
Some consumers are now left up the creek without a crank.

We've been around and around about road discs. Yes, they make sense for
your rainy commutes, but they really don't make sense for most riders.
But hey, they are "in"! Why buy a bike with rim brakes? Just because
they work as well for almost everyone, are easier to adjust, easier to
repair, cost less and are less fashionable?

Wheels: Ever fewer spokes, of ever weirder designs, in ever lighter
wheels. Do you remember days when spoke nipples didn't crack rims?

I do remember, partly because I'm still using wheels like that. I
remember when all my friends rode aluminum or steel frames, 5 or 6 or 7
rear cogs, square taper bottom brackets, etc. We're older now, but we
and even the younger riders are no faster and ride no further now than
in those days.

I think the major problem is that "what's best" is still being defined
as "what racers use." I think most bike makers still promote that
mindset. I think it's a disservice to most bicyclists.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Spoke nipples not cracking rims? No, but I do remember when spokes would be so over tightened that the wheel would buckle or the nipple would pull through the rim.


Regarding disc brakes. I bet the same thing was said when caliper brakes first started appearing on bicycles and then again when they changed from center-pull to side-pull and once again changed to dual-pivot. A lot of people don't need caliper brakes as a coaster brake would work just fine for them.. Ditto for gears. I know many people buy a multi-gear bicycle, find the one gear they like most and never shift out of that gear again. Thus multi-gear bicycles shouldn't be sold to people either. I remember a BICYCLING magazine article that emphatically stated that bicycles did NOT need FIFTEEN gears even for touring.

A lot of people buy what the LIKE not necessarily what best suits them.

I wonder what that 68 years old guy told the sales person whilst shopping for the new bike? Were you there? Then most likely you DON'T know EXACTLY what was said or suggested.

I remember the old bike fitting advice, such as Knee Over Pedal Spindle, that is mostly not agreed with these days.

Maybe we should all go back to riding wood frame bicycles with wood rims, solid rubber or iron tires and no cranks? After all, all the other stuff is just to make things either easier to use or to make the bicycle lighter.

Cheers

On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 5:52:35 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/26/2019 1:24 AM, James wrote:
On 26/8/19 1:48 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't
imagine why.


Imagine harder.

-- JS

Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN
"carbon paste" let alone used it for anything.



Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.Â* You wrote:

"In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was
the seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon
Â*seatpost and install an aluminum one."

So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent
Â*than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But
Â*even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part
Â*interfaces.

I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less
Â*than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF
parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common.



To be fair, it is easy to over torque many fasteners on a modern bicycle
that have no CF involved.

Most A head stems, for example, are aluminium and spec'ed for ~7 Nm.
Easy when you own a reasonable torque wrench designed for that low
torque range, and easy to strip for those with fists of ham.

And it's been easy to over torque stuff and damage parts for
generations.Â* All cranks for square taper BBs for example.Â* If you
properly grease the axle and nut or bolt, it is easy to pull a crank on
too far by over torquing the fastener.

Heck, if you over tighten spoke nipples you'll pull a nipple through an
aluminium rim sooner or later, or damage a hub or break spokes!

That's true, but the examples you gave pertain mostly to either
lightweight equipment or equipment (cranks, spokes) that the casual
cyclist doesn't typically deal with.

Casual cyclists are the ones who are least likely to have torque
wrenches, or to bother reading manuals for torque specs. Those people
are most likely to adjust just a few things: Saddle height and tilt,
stem height, handlebar tilt, and left-to-right handlebar straightness.
Those can and should be designed to withstand ham-fisted newbie
mechanics, and to not require exotic elixers that ordinary homeowners
have never heard of.

Maybe this could be a compromise: Make every bike in two models. One
model would withstand the hacking of a typical garage mechanic. The
other model would require a torque table and torque wrench. But the
delicate model would come with bright red or bright yellow "DELICATE!"
labels permanently fastened at every vulnerable joint. And somewhere on
the frame, another bright yellow label saying "This DELICATE model is
124 grams [or whatever] lighter than its stronger mate."


--
- Frank Krygowski

Took some photo's of my bikes just now:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uhKVvw1B4Yu7YGEU8

All my 'delicate' bikes came with a simple torque wrench, manual (book and CD ROM) and a sachet of carbon paste. One bike I picked up and got as Jay mentioned a 20 minutes instruction speech/lecture. 'Any further questions' he asked at the end. Pffff. They are doing their best Frank. If you ignore all this its your own fault end can end in a costly and in a rare occasion in a painful experiment. BTW the use of carbon paste isn't a safety requirement. You don't have to use it just don't use grease on CF parts honor the torque spec. As far as I can remember the technical handicapped didn't use grease at all in the past, hence all the stuck aluminum seat posts.

Lou

On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 1:16:36 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/25/2019 2:39 PM, wrote:


So instead of your constant bitching and whining about lightweight CF components what do you suggest?
- you can only buy CF components/bike if you can show a certificate that you are qualified to use and maintain them correctly?,
- ban all lightweight CF frames/components for all people except Pro riders?,
- weight limit of 2 kg for a frameset?,
- you can only buy lightweight CF components if you can ride an average of 40 km/hr on flat terrain for at least two hours?
- a buyer of a CF bike has to read the f*cking manual aloud in the store first?

What I'd suggest is that the industry and the cycling community stop
pretending that every gram is critical, that every rider needs what's
being raced in Le Tour, that every new gizmo or fashion is an
unqualified improvement, that every rider who doesn't ride a bike like
Lou's is a stodgy "Fred" who deserves to be mocked.


How is that going to work in practice?

Lou

On Monday, 26 August 2019 13:23:45 UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 1:16:36 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/25/2019 2:39 PM, wrote:


So instead of your constant bitching and whining about lightweight CF components what do you suggest?
- you can only buy CF components/bike if you can show a certificate that you are qualified to use and maintain them correctly?,
- ban all lightweight CF frames/components for all people except Pro riders?,
- weight limit of 2 kg for a frameset?,
- you can only buy lightweight CF components if you can ride an average of 40 km/hr on flat terrain for at least two hours?
- a buyer of a CF bike has to read the f*cking manual aloud in the store first?

What I'd suggest is that the industry and the cycling community stop
pretending that every gram is critical, that every rider needs what's
being raced in Le Tour, that every new gizmo or fashion is an
unqualified improvement, that every rider who doesn't ride a bike like
Lou's is a stodgy "Fred" who deserves to be mocked.


How is that going to work in practice?

Lou

Unfortunately, Frank often mocks everyone who doesn't equip themselves like him, dress like him or ride more modern bicycles or components than him.

Cheers

On 8/26/2019 12:53 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


Some people will over torque something no matter what sort of warnings you put on things. You've posted here many times of instances of your incompetent engineering or other friends who didn't know how to do either a simple repair or adjustment on a bicycle.

Yes, but giving them delicate components that save a few grams? That's
not a solution.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/26/2019 1:35 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 26 August 2019 13:23:45 UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 1:16:36 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/25/2019 2:39 PM, wrote:


So instead of your constant bitching and whining about lightweight CF components what do you suggest?
- you can only buy CF components/bike if you can show a certificate that you are qualified to use and maintain them correctly?,
- ban all lightweight CF frames/components for all people except Pro riders?,
- weight limit of 2 kg for a frameset?,
- you can only buy lightweight CF components if you can ride an average of 40 km/hr on flat terrain for at least two hours?
- a buyer of a CF bike has to read the f*cking manual aloud in the store first?

What I'd suggest is that the industry and the cycling community stop
pretending that every gram is critical, that every rider needs what's
being raced in Le Tour, that every new gizmo or fashion is an
unqualified improvement, that every rider who doesn't ride a bike like
Lou's is a stodgy "Fred" who deserves to be mocked.


How is that going to work in practice?

Lou

Unfortunately, Frank often mocks everyone who doesn't equip themselves like him, dress like him or ride more modern bicycles or components than him.

False. And I'll point out, Lou mocks me; I don't mock him.

I do discuss the disadvantages of certain equipment choices. That's
regarded as heresy by some - an odd position in a "discussion" group.

--
- Frank Krygowski

wrote:
On Monday, August 26, 2019 at 1:16:36 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/25/2019 2:39 PM, wrote:


So instead of your constant bitching and whining about lightweight CF
components what do you suggest?
- you can only buy CF components/bike if you can show a certificate
that you are qualified to use and maintain them correctly?,
- ban all lightweight CF frames/components for all people except Pro riders?,
- weight limit of 2 kg for a frameset?,
- you can only buy lightweight CF components if you can ride an average
of 40 km/hr on flat terrain for at least two hours?
- a buyer of a CF bike has to read the f*cking manual aloud in the store first?

What I'd suggest is that the industry and the cycling community stop
pretending that every gram is critical, that every rider needs what's
being raced in Le Tour, that every new gizmo or fashion is an
unqualified improvement, that every rider who doesn't ride a bike like
Lou's is a stodgy "Fred" who deserves to be mocked.


How is that going to work in practice?

Lou


Actually, I think the problem is with the clowns that think anyone riding a
bike like Lou’s and isn’t in the TDF is getting ripped off.

I went through a lot of bikes up to and including my Tarmacs. Never been
pushed to buy a TDF bike. Jeez an S-Works Venge is more than $12000. You
don’t see lowly Spec Tarmacs in the tour. That’s just hyperbole.

--
duane

On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 2:57:09 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 2:47:10 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 8:48:27 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/24/2019 9:58 PM, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 7:36 am, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, August 24, 2019 at 2:18:05 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 25/8/19 5:18 am, Tom Kunich wrote:


I have never used "carbon paste" for anything and can't imagine why.


Imagine harder.

--
JS

Why? I have had CF frames for a long time. I've never even SEEN
"carbon paste" let alone used it for anything.



Because you complained about a CF seat post slipping.Â* You wrote:

"In one point it again made that noise and it appears that it was the
seat post moving. Think that I'll throw away that Campy Carbon seatpost
and install an aluminum one."

So Tom is a case in point. He's got to be more mechanically competent
than most recreational cyclists. He's got decades of experience. But
even he doesn't know that carbon paste is recommended for many part
interfaces.

I think there must be tens of thousands of newbies who will know less
than that, and will over-torque or otherwise damage lightweight CF
parts, especially as CF gets less expensive and more common.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Rather than telling us another of your stories why don't you show us a factory recommendation for putting an abrasive material in between two surfaces.

https://lynskeyperformance.com/faq/

Q: What Grease is recommended to use with the frame during the build-up?

A:

Bottom Bracket Threads - Finish Line Copper Based Anti-Seize
Headset Cups - Finish Line Copper Based Anti-Seize (Tiny Bit)
Seatposts - Carbon Fiber Seatpost: Finish Line Carbon Fiber Grip Paste - Aluminum & Titanium Seatposts use no grease. Regardless of seatpost material and grease applied, we suggest pulling the seatpost out to clean it every 3 months to ensure you never have a seized seatpost issue.

I could locate more, but you're retired and can do it yourself.

-- Jay Beattie.

I suggest that you then follow your own advice and put an abrasive into your seat tube. Regardless of Lyskey's advice I would hesitate to put carbon paste into a Lyskey seat tube. While that carbon paste is unlikely to have any effect on titanium, it also wouldn't give you anything of value. On a STEEL or carbon fiber or even aluminum seat tube you are more likely to seize the seatpost rather than prevent it from moving.

On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 4:54:10 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 3:57:10 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Exactly!

Lou and Duane will give examples to pretend everyone knows all about
care of super-light equipment. But we also have Tom who says "I don't
need no steenkin' carbon paste," AK who takes his bike to the shop to
adjust the derailleur, Joerg who says a rock and trailside nail are
proper chain repair tools, and more.

O.K., let's look at what I think is one of the best bang-for-the-buck CF bikes with a CF post. A Canyon. $2,3000 -- a smoking deal. https://tinyurl..com/y2qr3twe So, who is going to buy that bike? Someone who stumbles across the website? "Hey, lookey there, a thingamajig made out of fibers. I'm gonna get me one!"

So, then, let's go to a bike shop -- we'll pick one near my work: https://www.bikegallery.com/product/...c-342164-1.htm Sweet! A Domane SL5 on sale for $2,200 which has a CF seat post because the seat post is built into the frame. That bike comes with a wrench. It also comes with the staff at the downtown Bike Gallery who set the saddle height and tell you about the wrench. My Emonda landed there, and I had to go through the process which, for me, was about as informative as learning about the seatbelts on an airliner for the billionth time.

Hey, while we're at it, what's up with "this plane is equipped with two life rafts" -- and then not telling you how to get them down or what to do with them. It's not in the seat-back card. I wonder if those life rafts are really up in the roof at all.

Anyway, back to bikes, people are not dropping $2K and then trying to adjust their carbon seatposts with a crow-bar -- except perhaps in your Ohio village and Cameron Park, Ca. (why the riders also die of thirst and starvation).



It's not just people in my locale who don't know bike mechanics. I've
been in Portland, Oregon and told someone "Your quick release isn't
fastened right. Your wheel could pop out," and showed them how to clamp
it properly.

Did he actually need your help or was he, in typical Portland fashion, just letting you natter-on while he stood there politely. We don't even honk when people sit at lights. I had some guy stop and basically take over fixing a flat. WTF? I was fixing flats before you were born. Go away!


We're Warm Showers hosts,

I wouldn't admit that in public.


and I've fixed multiple problems
for multiple guests who were riding from New York City to Chicago or
further - the latest was last Saturday. When we were riding across
Montana, I saved a guy riding the other way who was stranded on a remote
highway. His (roughly) 20 spoke rear wheel had a broken spoke, and was
so out of true it wouldn't pass through his brakes. He didn't even know
how to open his quick release, although as I recall that didn't give
sufficient clearance either. I loosened his brake cable at the clamp
screw to allow him to make the next town - although I doubt the bike
shop there (which we had visited) carried his very non-standard spokes.
Heck, we were in Amsterdam last year, and the bikes on the streets were
far from models of mechanical perfection.

You should have told the Montana guy to get discs.

I went to meet my neighbor for a ride, and he says, hey, could you try riding my bike, it just isn't shifting well. So I got on his bike (which is way too small), and it had an odd shifting issue that didn't quite feel like new chain/cassette issues. It was subtle and more like a loose freehub body. So I tell him that, and he goes, O.K., let me check. He pops off the cassettes, checks the body, which isn't loose, but the cones on his Campy hub/wheel are a little loose, so he pulls out his cone wrenches, adjusts the hub, throws the cassettes back on and pops the wheel back in his Pinarello.. Shifts like a charm. Took 8 minutes.


This will always be the case. Different people know different things,
which is OK. But I think it's a bad idea to push actually fragile
equipment to people who need rugged reliability a lot more than tiny
improvements in speed.

Grrrrrr. Rugged reliability! You know, I've never seen anyone force a super-light bike on someone, and I've been to a lot of bike shops. My son sold bikes and let people make stupid purchases, but they were usually double suspended fat bikes and other odd-ball bikes. He worked in Specialized and Trek shops, and I don't recall one instance of him forcing an S-Works Tarmac on some unsuspecting old lady or a Madone.

-- Jay Beattie.

OK Jay, now you see what I'm thinking when you do that to me.

On Sunday, August 25, 2019 at 10:53:51 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 26/8/19 7:34 am, Tom Kunich wrote:

Let me get this straight - you suggest putting an abrasive in the seat tube?

Yes.

--
JS

I see tot was wasn't lou either who made that stupid statement. Go right ahead and do that if you think it proper. You're the one working on your bike.

And my apologies to you as well lou.