Rear Wheel Alignment

The new(old) bike frame that I am slowly rebuilding into a light road
bike, has horizontal, the opening facing forward, frame ends on the
rear triangle, as did many older bikes. Unfortunately the R.H.
adjusting screw is frozen in the frame end and so far efforts to
remove it have failed and I am afraid to get too aggressive as there
isn't that much metal available that one wants to take the chance of
drilling and having the drill go off center.

What I have been thinking about doing is, perhaps, braze a shim,
perhaps 1/8" - 1/4" thick into the R.H. frame end, to establish a
fixed position for the R.H. axle end, and use the L.H. adjustment
screw, which is not installed and the threaded hole is in good
condition, to align the wheel.

The problem is that if both the right and left hand screws are
installed than the rear axle can aligned and also can be moved forward
in the slot by about one inch so the question is whether this is a
critical measurement.

Moving the axle will of course vary the distance between the upper
derailer pulley and the free hub but riding the bike with its
originally install derailer and the wheel as far back in the frame end
as possible and other bikes using vertical drop outs that have had the
upper idler pulley at various distances from the free hub, seem to
indicate that the distance between the derailer pulley and the cogs is
not a critical factor (which is not to say that it can be completely
ignored).

In brief, attempting to remove the broken screw presents the
possibility of damage to the frame end while not removing it means
that the wheel will likely further away from the derailer then on the
usual vertical drop out frame end. So the question is, is this
meaningful?

Comments?



--
cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 9:43:00 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
The new(old) bike frame that I am slowly rebuilding into a light road
bike, has horizontal, the opening facing forward, frame ends on the
rear triangle, as did many older bikes. Unfortunately the R.H.
adjusting screw is frozen in the frame end and so far efforts to
remove it have failed and I am afraid to get too aggressive as there
isn't that much metal available that one wants to take the chance of
drilling and having the drill go off center.

snipped
The problem is that if both the right and left hand screws are
installed than the rear axle can aligned and also can be moved forward
in the slot by about one inch so the question is whether this is a
critical measurement.

Moving the axle will of course vary the distance between the upper
derailer pulley and the free hub but riding the bike with its
originally install derailer and the wheel as far back in the frame end
as possible and other bikes using vertical drop outs that have had the
upper idler pulley at various distances from the free hub, seem to
indicate that the distance between the derailer pulley and the cogs is
not a critical factor (which is not to say that it can be completely
ignored).

In brief, attempting to remove the broken screw presents the
possibility of damage to the frame end while not removing it means
that the wheel will likely further away from the derailer then on the
usual vertical drop out frame end. So the question is, is this
meaningful?

Comments?



--
cheers,

John B.

Sometimes tapping rapidly and with moderate force on the end of a seized bolt canhelp jar it loose whilst torque is applied at the same time.

Thos dropout adhusting bolts are there mostly to make rear wheel changes go faster in competition. They are not mandatory but do make alligning the wheel a bit easier.

Cheers

On 10/28/2015 9:42 PM, John B. wrote:

The new(old) bike frame that I am slowly rebuilding into a light road
bike, has horizontal, the opening facing forward, frame ends on the
rear triangle, as did many older bikes. Unfortunately the R.H.
adjusting screw is frozen in the frame end and so far efforts to
remove it have failed and I am afraid to get too aggressive as there
isn't that much metal available that one wants to take the chance of
drilling and having the drill go off center.

What I have been thinking about doing is, perhaps, braze a shim,
perhaps 1/8" - 1/4" thick into the R.H. frame end, to establish a
fixed position for the R.H. axle end, and use the L.H. adjustment
screw, which is not installed and the threaded hole is in good
condition, to align the wheel.

The problem is that if both the right and left hand screws are
installed than the rear axle can aligned and also can be moved forward
in the slot by about one inch so the question is whether this is a
critical measurement.

Moving the axle will of course vary the distance between the upper
derailer pulley and the free hub but riding the bike with its
originally install derailer and the wheel as far back in the frame end
as possible and other bikes using vertical drop outs that have had the
upper idler pulley at various distances from the free hub, seem to
indicate that the distance between the derailer pulley and the cogs is
not a critical factor (which is not to say that it can be completely
ignored).

In brief, attempting to remove the broken screw presents the
possibility of damage to the frame end while not removing it means
that the wheel will likely further away from the derailer then on the
usual vertical drop out frame end. So the question is, is this
meaningful?

Comments?

This all sounds to me like it's not critical.

I always figured the purpose of the adjusting screws on some dropouts
was to facilitate super-quick (i.e. racing) wheel changes, or otherwise
make installation of a rear wheel more convenient. Without them, you
can just take longer to fiddle with the wheel position before tightening
the rear axle in place.

Having said that: My 1972 commuter bike has flat rear dropouts with no
adjusting screws. Somewhere I acquired some clamp-on axle stops.
They're a bit hard to describe, but here goes: A thin (0.040"?) piece
of sheet steel is formed so its forward part sits within the dropout's
axle slot, and its rearward part sits outside that slot. It's connected
by a screw to a sort of custom nut that sits on the inner face of the
dropout. In effect, it's an axle stop that you adjust to the proper
position, clamp down firmly, and never move.

One goes on each dropout. Once clamped down, you can just slap your
axle all the way back and clamp the quick release - at least, in theory.
It's wise to double check alignment, of course.

I don't know what those gizmos are called. But I'd be surprised if
Andrew doesn't carry them.

And BTW, I agree that cog-to-idler-pulley clearance isn't all _that_
critical. Yes, perfection in that distance yields the best shifting,
but shifting can be very good without that perfection.

Also BTW: The 3 speed I built from an old Reynolds 531 frame has Campy
dropouts and used to have those adjusting screws. I worked for a while
to free them up, then said "Heck with it" and snapped them off.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 29/10/2015 01:42, John B. wrote:

In brief, attempting to remove the broken screw presents the
possibility of damage to the frame end while not removing it means
that the wheel will likely further away from the derailer then on the
usual vertical drop out frame end. So the question is, is this
meaningful?

Comments?

I'd be tempted to file the bit of the screw inside the dropout off.

soak screws in penetrating oil with wrapped soaked rag for 2-3 days, brush clean then torch. The heads are phillips ? clamp a vice grip on the screw driver shaft, press down on screwdriver, turn shaft with vise grips. try tighten loosen tghten loosen.

string the wheel. string from downtube touching seat tube with plywood shims spacing the string out beyond the last tube.

sight front of rim rearward rim half to precisely even both sides to string.

find a nut or bolt head fileable or best grindable down to snug into the axle slot or better figure on grinding a bolt/washer/nut assembly fitting in there.

fit into slot so the new slot fitting spaces the wheel precisely onto the string.

or use a strap or 'key' metal for the slot fitting.

is possible using only a nut with red locktite or shaft locktite as base.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 19:37:35 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 28, 2015 at 9:43:00 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
The new(old) bike frame that I am slowly rebuilding into a light road
bike, has horizontal, the opening facing forward, frame ends on the
rear triangle, as did many older bikes. Unfortunately the R.H.
adjusting screw is frozen in the frame end and so far efforts to
remove it have failed and I am afraid to get too aggressive as there
isn't that much metal available that one wants to take the chance of
drilling and having the drill go off center.

snipped
The problem is that if both the right and left hand screws are
installed than the rear axle can aligned and also can be moved forward
in the slot by about one inch so the question is whether this is a
critical measurement.

Moving the axle will of course vary the distance between the upper
derailer pulley and the free hub but riding the bike with its
originally install derailer and the wheel as far back in the frame end
as possible and other bikes using vertical drop outs that have had the
upper idler pulley at various distances from the free hub, seem to
indicate that the distance between the derailer pulley and the cogs is
not a critical factor (which is not to say that it can be completely
ignored).

In brief, attempting to remove the broken screw presents the
possibility of damage to the frame end while not removing it means
that the wheel will likely further away from the derailer then on the
usual vertical drop out frame end. So the question is, is this
meaningful?

Comments?



--
cheers,

John B.

Sometimes tapping rapidly and with moderate force on the end of a seized bolt canhelp jar it loose whilst torque is applied at the same time.


There isn't any end, they are broken off flush, I assume that someone
with no finesse tried to take them out :-(

Thos dropout adhusting bolts are there mostly to make rear wheel changes go faster in competition. They are not mandatory but do make alligning the wheel a bit easier.

Cheers

True, but I always liked the idea of a sort of fixed alignment rather
then have to wiggle the wheel every time :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 22:49:48 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/28/2015 9:42 PM, John B. wrote:

The new(old) bike frame that I am slowly rebuilding into a light road
bike, has horizontal, the opening facing forward, frame ends on the
rear triangle, as did many older bikes. Unfortunately the R.H.
adjusting screw is frozen in the frame end and so far efforts to
remove it have failed and I am afraid to get too aggressive as there
isn't that much metal available that one wants to take the chance of
drilling and having the drill go off center.

What I have been thinking about doing is, perhaps, braze a shim,
perhaps 1/8" - 1/4" thick into the R.H. frame end, to establish a
fixed position for the R.H. axle end, and use the L.H. adjustment
screw, which is not installed and the threaded hole is in good
condition, to align the wheel.

The problem is that if both the right and left hand screws are
installed than the rear axle can aligned and also can be moved forward
in the slot by about one inch so the question is whether this is a
critical measurement.

Moving the axle will of course vary the distance between the upper
derailer pulley and the free hub but riding the bike with its
originally install derailer and the wheel as far back in the frame end
as possible and other bikes using vertical drop outs that have had the
upper idler pulley at various distances from the free hub, seem to
indicate that the distance between the derailer pulley and the cogs is
not a critical factor (which is not to say that it can be completely
ignored).

In brief, attempting to remove the broken screw presents the
possibility of damage to the frame end while not removing it means
that the wheel will likely further away from the derailer then on the
usual vertical drop out frame end. So the question is, is this
meaningful?

Comments?

This all sounds to me like it's not critical.

I always figured the purpose of the adjusting screws on some dropouts
was to facilitate super-quick (i.e. racing) wheel changes, or otherwise
make installation of a rear wheel more convenient. Without them, you
can just take longer to fiddle with the wheel position before tightening
the rear axle in place.


Perhaps not "critical" but on the side of the road, with the trucks
whizzing by and the rain pouring down, I hate to be wiggling the wheel
to align it :-( I always considered vertical drop outs as being a gift
of the Gods.

Having said that: My 1972 commuter bike has flat rear dropouts with no
adjusting screws. Somewhere I acquired some clamp-on axle stops.
They're a bit hard to describe, but here goes: A thin (0.040"?) piece
of sheet steel is formed so its forward part sits within the dropout's
axle slot, and its rearward part sits outside that slot. It's connected
by a screw to a sort of custom nut that sits on the inner face of the
dropout. In effect, it's an axle stop that you adjust to the proper
position, clamp down firmly, and never move.

Yup, seen 'em.

One goes on each dropout. Once clamped down, you can just slap your
axle all the way back and clamp the quick release - at least, in theory.
It's wise to double check alignment, of course.

I don't know what those gizmos are called. But I'd be surprised if
Andrew doesn't carry them.

And BTW, I agree that cog-to-idler-pulley clearance isn't all _that_
critical. Yes, perfection in that distance yields the best shifting,
but shifting can be very good without that perfection.

Actually not perfection as depending on the cassette, as adjusting the
top idler as close as can be on one end of the cassette may leave an
astonishing gap on the other end.

Also BTW: The 3 speed I built from an old Reynolds 531 frame has Campy
dropouts and used to have those adjusting screws. I worked for a while
to free them up, then said "Heck with it" and snapped them off.

True, my only thought is I would like to have the back end of the
dropouts to be an aligned wheel.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 02:55:19 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 29/10/2015 01:42, John B. wrote:

In brief, attempting to remove the broken screw presents the
possibility of damage to the frame end while not removing it means
that the wheel will likely further away from the derailer then on the
usual vertical drop out frame end. So the question is, is this
meaningful?

Comments?

I'd be tempted to file the bit of the screw inside the dropout off.

Can't, there is no "end" there :-(
--
cheers,

John B.

On 10/28/2015 8:42 PM, John B. wrote:

The new(old) bike frame that I am slowly rebuilding into a light road
bike, has horizontal, the opening facing forward, frame ends on the
rear triangle, as did many older bikes. Unfortunately the R.H.
adjusting screw is frozen in the frame end and so far efforts to
remove it have failed and I am afraid to get too aggressive as there
isn't that much metal available that one wants to take the chance of
drilling and having the drill go off center.

What I have been thinking about doing is, perhaps, braze a shim,
perhaps 1/8" - 1/4" thick into the R.H. frame end, to establish a
fixed position for the R.H. axle end, and use the L.H. adjustment
screw, which is not installed and the threaded hole is in good
condition, to align the wheel.

The problem is that if both the right and left hand screws are
installed than the rear axle can aligned and also can be moved forward
in the slot by about one inch so the question is whether this is a
critical measurement.

Moving the axle will of course vary the distance between the upper
derailer pulley and the free hub but riding the bike with its
originally install derailer and the wheel as far back in the frame end
as possible and other bikes using vertical drop outs that have had the
upper idler pulley at various distances from the free hub, seem to
indicate that the distance between the derailer pulley and the cogs is
not a critical factor (which is not to say that it can be completely
ignored).

In brief, attempting to remove the broken screw presents the
possibility of damage to the frame end while not removing it means
that the wheel will likely further away from the derailer then on the
usual vertical drop out frame end. So the question is, is this
meaningful?

Comments?



--
cheers,

John B.


Here's the spec for that:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/sisend.html

If needed there were bolt-in axle stops in the olden days,
probably simpler and cleaner than a brazed stop. Some French
bikes also had a nylon slip-in axle stop, easily fabricated.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 29/10/2015 11:17, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 02:55:19 +0000, Clive George
wrote:

On 29/10/2015 01:42, John B. wrote:

In brief, attempting to remove the broken screw presents the
possibility of damage to the frame end while not removing it means
that the wheel will likely further away from the derailer then on the
usual vertical drop out frame end. So the question is, is this
meaningful?

Comments?

I'd be tempted to file the bit of the screw inside the dropout off.

Can't, there is no "end" there :-(

If there's no end on either side, surely the dropouts are just as if
there were no screws in them at all? You said there's a bit of broken
screw inside the drop out, but then that there's nothing. Maybe a
picture would help?