Effects of too much cycling

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Jon B. Slocomb wrote:

Re the various "statins", like many other modern medicines (and some
very old ones) they may be a hazard to health so the question is which
may be the greatest hazard the fat in the pipes or the medicine.

That was my problem. I've been to 3 cardiologists, have had a triple
bypass operation, and had 2 stents installed last year. I tend to
collect plaque in the arteries and most of my ancestors have died from
either a heart attack or stroke.

Have either of you tried supplementing with lysin + ascorbic acid?
Chances are high that I will drop dead writing this message.

Don't you! It might not be sufficient to get filed as a bicycle-related death.

Sepp Ruf wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Jon B. Slocomb wrote:

Re the various "statins", like many other modern medicines (and some
very old ones) they may be a hazard to health so the question is which
may be the greatest hazard the fat in the pipes or the medicine.

That was my problem. I've been to 3 cardiologists, have had a triple
bypass operation, and had 2 stents installed last year. I tend to
collect plaque in the arteries and most of my ancestors have died from
either a heart attack or stroke.

Have either of you tried supplementing with lysine + ascorbic acid?
^^^
Fixed that.

Chances are high that I will drop dead writing this message.

Don't you! It might not be sufficient to get filed as a bicycle-related death.

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:55:09 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

You might be close with the fat/weight loss theory as it mentions
some of the drugs used for weight loss can cause muscle breakdown.

Why are you thinking that this vascularization is due to muscle
breakdown? This guy is racing in the Tour de France. If he is having
significant muscle breakdown, he would be unable to race his bike.

I think the dramatic looks of the photos are the result of body fat
loss from the race on top of the abnormally low body fat that pro
cyclists have to begin with, engorgement from the day's stage,
lighting angle and maybe some pre-race embrocation. Not to mention
having shaved legs, of course.

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 19:34:44 +0200, Sepp Ruf
wrote:

Have either of you tried supplementing with lysine + ascorbic acid?

Yes. When I had the muscle aches, it helped a little. More effective
was magnesium taurate or magnesium citrate. I measured how much
ascorbic acid I was dumping in my urine and concluded that none of it
was being absorbed. I'm rather wary of such supplements as I've had
some minor adverse reactions with my prescription drugs in the past.

Hint: Never take any drugs you can't pronounce.

Chances are high that I will drop dead writing this message.

Don't you! It might not be sufficient to get filed as a bicycle-related death.

Since I'm still riding my indoor exercise bicycle, it's a likely
possibility. After reading the article on rhabdomyolysis and the
risks of excessive exercise, I've decided to do something about the
problem. I've stopped reading such articles.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 12:26:00 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Snipped
Just about anything in sufficient dosage and over extended periods is
dangerous. You can get sick from drinking too much water.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

You can get DEAD from drinking too much water. See hyponatremia.

Cheers

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 13:10:23 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:55:09 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

You might be close with the fat/weight loss theory as it mentions
some of the drugs used for weight loss can cause muscle breakdown.

Why are you thinking that this vascularization is due to muscle
breakdown? This guy is racing in the Tour de France. If he is having
significant muscle breakdown, he would be unable to race his bike.

No. My comment was in reference to the question about what was
causing the muscle breakdown. We know that it was initiated by a
dramatic increase in exercise at a spin class, but the exact failure
mechanism is unknown. The question was whether it was caused by fat
loss or insufficient blood flow. My guess(tm) was insufficient blood
flow, which I have NOT been able to substantiate, yet.

I think the dramatic looks of the photos are the result of body fat
loss from the race on top of the abnormally low body fat that pro
cyclists have to begin with, engorgement from the day's stage,
lighting angle and maybe some pre-race embrocation. Not to mention
having shaved legs, of course.

Dunno. I would need to determine the normal size of the visible blood
vessels and compare them with the sizes of the racer in the photo.
Also, the number of capillaries to check if there has been any
increase (angiogenesis). If the inside diameter and/or number of
blood vessels has been significantly increased, that means that his
body has responded to the repeated demands for more blood flow by
enlarging the inside diameter. Making the comparision after a race is
not really a valid comparison. I don't know if there is any tie in
with body fat in this process.

Disclaimer: This is very much outside of my areas of experise.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 14:53:57 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 12:26:00 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Snipped
Just about anything in sufficient dosage and over extended periods is
dangerous. You can get sick from drinking too much water.

You can get DEAD from drinking too much water. See hyponatremia.
Cheers

Yep. I know a couple that did that to themselves. Someone convinced
them that everyone was perpetually dehydrated and that they should
drink some outrageous amount of water per day. So, they carried
around water bottles wherever they went and drank from them almost
continuously. I don't recall exactly how long it took for both of
them to land in the hospital but I think it was about 6 months.

"Hyponatremia: Epidemiology"
https://www.aace.com/sites/all/files/blevins_hyponatremia_ss2013AM.pdf
Looks like it's fairly common:
15% of hospitalized patients
1% incidence and 2.5% prevalence
67% of cases were hospital acquired.
18-22% incidence in chronic care facilities
It gets worse:
104 patients with Na+ 125 mEq/L in a 6 month period
42% of diagnoses incorrect
33% of patients with significant management errors
Overall mortality 27%
41% in those with errors in management
20% in those managed appropriately

Oh, swell. Go to the hospital and get even more sick or die.

Yes, water is dangerous.
http://www.dhmo.org

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 9:12:55 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 14:53:57 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 12:26:00 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Snipped
Just about anything in sufficient dosage and over extended periods is
dangerous. You can get sick from drinking too much water.

You can get DEAD from drinking too much water. See hyponatremia.
Cheers

Yep. I know a couple that did that to themselves. Someone convinced
them that everyone was perpetually dehydrated and that they should
drink some outrageous amount of water per day. So, they carried
around water bottles wherever they went and drank from them almost
continuously. I don't recall exactly how long it took for both of
them to land in the hospital but I think it was about 6 months.

"Hyponatremia: Epidemiology"
https://www.aace.com/sites/all/files/blevins_hyponatremia_ss2013AM.pdf
Looks like it's fairly common:
15% of hospitalized patients
1% incidence and 2.5% prevalence
67% of cases were hospital acquired.
18-22% incidence in chronic care facilities
It gets worse:
104 patients with Na+ 125 mEq/L in a 6 month period
42% of diagnoses incorrect
33% of patients with significant management errors
Overall mortality 27%
41% in those with errors in management
20% in those managed appropriately

Oh, swell. Go to the hospital and get even more sick or die.

Yes, water is dangerous.
http://www.dhmo.org

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Another problm with too much water in the system is thatthe symptoms can mimic too little water in the system and a rushed overworked medicla person can make a mistake (sometimes a fatal mistake) and give the patient/victim more fluids that alone don't restore the electrolyte balance.

Cheers
p.s. My grandad used to say that if you were not sick when you went to a hospital you would be when you came out.

On 7/21/2017 8:39 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 9:12:55 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 14:53:57 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 12:26:00 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Snipped
Just about anything in sufficient dosage and over extended periods is
dangerous. You can get sick from drinking too much water.

You can get DEAD from drinking too much water. See hyponatremia.
Cheers

Yep. I know a couple that did that to themselves. Someone convinced
them that everyone was perpetually dehydrated and that they should
drink some outrageous amount of water per day. So, they carried
around water bottles wherever they went and drank from them almost
continuously. I don't recall exactly how long it took for both of
them to land in the hospital but I think it was about 6 months.

"Hyponatremia: Epidemiology"
https://www.aace.com/sites/all/files/blevins_hyponatremia_ss2013AM.pdf
Looks like it's fairly common:
15% of hospitalized patients
1% incidence and 2.5% prevalence
67% of cases were hospital acquired.
18-22% incidence in chronic care facilities
It gets worse:
104 patients with Na+ 125 mEq/L in a 6 month period
42% of diagnoses incorrect
33% of patients with significant management errors
Overall mortality 27%
41% in those with errors in management
20% in those managed appropriately

Oh, swell. Go to the hospital and get even more sick or die.

Yes, water is dangerous.
http://www.dhmo.org

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Another problm with too much water in the system is thatthe symptoms can mimic too little water in the system and a rushed overworked medicla person can make a mistake (sometimes a fatal mistake) and give the patient/victim more fluids that alone don't restore the electrolyte balance.

Cheers
p.s. My grandad used to say that if you were not sick when you went to a hospital you would be when you came out.


If not feet-first:
http://hospitalinfection.org/archive...ired-infection

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 08:25:03 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, July 21, 2017 at 2:03:33 AM UTC-7, Jon B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 20:45:54 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 07:57:33 +0700, John B.
wrote:

No mention of enlarged veins and arteries.

Maybe, but there's also no mention of insufficient body fat. Could be
we're both wrong. A bit mo

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3940504/
See: "Excessive muscular activity".
and: "Investigations for underlying cause".
There's too much to quote.

This is also interesting:
There is a large variety of causes for rhabdomyolysis, all
leading to muscle ischemia and cell breakdown. The most
common among adult populations are muscle exertion, illicit
drugs, alcohol abuse, medications, muscle diseases,
trauma, Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS), seizures
and immobility.

So, in order from the most likely, we have muscle exertion (exercise),
illegal drugs, booze, legal drugs, and so on as the likely causes. Or,
it might be a combination of two of these, such as exertion and drugs.
Some of the other PubMed articles mention something about "exercise
intolerance and exercise induced rhabdomyolisis" but are well above my
ability to decode the medical technobabble.

The reason I mentioned statins is that they are among the most
prescribed and best selling drugs. #2 is Crestor (rosuvastatin):
http://www.webmd.com/drug-medication/news/20150508/most-prescribed-top-selling-drugs
From personal experience with Lovastatin, Simvastatin, and
Atorvastatin, I know that they all can cause muscle pain and damage.
Combined with excessive exertion, I suspect the combination can do
real damage. All that statins had warnings that use might cause
rhabdomyolysis but there was no connection to excessive exercise
mentioned.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-cholesterol/expert-answers/rhabdomyolysis/faq-20057817

Re the various "statins", like many other modern medicines (and some
very old ones) they may be a hazard to health so the question is which
may be the greatest hazard the fat in the pipes or the medicine. I see
my cardiologist quarterly and that includes a blood test to be sure
that none of the three medicines, two - hypertension, one for
cholesterol, I take are causing problems.

As an aside, aspirin, after an estimated 2500 years of use is now
considered almost poisonous :-)
--
Cheers,

John b

"Conservative calculations estimate that approximately 107,000 patients are hospitalized annually for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID)-related gastrointestinal (GI) complications and at least 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur each year among arthritis patients alone." (Singh Gurkirpal, MD, “Recent Considerations in Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug Gastropathy”, The American Journal of Medicine, July 27, 1998, p. 31S)


I do not doubt it. But aspirin, which is classified as a NSAID, has
been in common use for something like 2500 years. Strange that no one
ever identified it as dangerous isn't it?

I even remember when the most commonly used "pain pill" was one or two
aspirins. Back in my younger days after an evening spent "in low
places" I used to take two aspirins before collapsing into bed with
the hope that would alleviate the "morning after pains".
--
Cheers,

John b