Clothing for the Cold question

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:52:01 -0400, dgk
wrote:

On 18 Oct 2004 19:04:37 GMT, David Reuteler wrote:

Badger_South wrote:
The function of biking gloves isn't really to keep your hands warm,
though.
I use mine to wipe the tires, check the chain, reduce some vibration
and
prevent road rash.

they're snot rags. in the winter that's their secondary purpose (first
is
warmth). try also a lighter wool glove underneath something heavier
like
the pearl izumi pittards glove or one of the lobster gloves if it gets
much below 10F.

most, making them nice for a second layer. The advantage of wool over
acryllic is that even when wet, wool can keep you warm, I believe.

i love wool. this is my favourite base layer:

http://www.vintagevelos.com/baseLS-extreme.html

this under a l/s wool jersey and a sugoi jacket gets me down to 10F.
not
that it ever gets that cold here in sw idaho. dressing for winter is
yet
another wasted skillset for me (somewhat happily so, i suppose).

I saved that link. First I'll see if I can get by with Mom's sweaters.
I have an abundance of them. Luckily there are a few grandkids popping
out so she shifted to making sweaters for them.

The weather here in northern California just dropped from the low 90's
to low 60's with rain, in one week. I haven't been on the bike for about
4 days now and I am trying to come up with a strategy. Since you always
get warmer as you ride I am thinking of using my back pack for clothing.
That means starting out well dressed and as I heat up or the weather gets
warmer during the day I can put the sweater, gloves or whatever in the
back pack. This may work until it gets really cold and heavy jackets are
needed, but that is where I stop anything like a long trip. I found out
last year that it is too easy to get all sweaty in a thick jacket, and
taking it off puts you back into the freezing mode. Multiple sweat tops
and two pair of gloves, thick and thin, might work, but there is still
that issue of having to ride with a back pack.
I was hoping for a gradual cooldown and not a kablam.
This looks like a good time for ideas.
Bill Baka


--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

"Bill Baka" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:52:01 -0400, dgk
wrote:

On 18 Oct 2004 19:04:37 GMT, David Reuteler wrote:

Badger_South wrote:
The function of biking gloves isn't really to keep your hands warm,
though.
I use mine to wipe the tires, check the chain, reduce some vibration
and
prevent road rash.

they're snot rags. in the winter that's their secondary purpose
(first
is
warmth). try also a lighter wool glove underneath something heavier
like
the pearl izumi pittards glove or one of the lobster gloves if it gets
much below 10F.

most, making them nice for a second layer. The advantage of wool over
acryllic is that even when wet, wool can keep you warm, I believe.

i love wool. this is my favourite base layer:

http://www.vintagevelos.com/baseLS-extreme.html

this under a l/s wool jersey and a sugoi jacket gets me down to 10F.
not
that it ever gets that cold here in sw idaho. dressing for winter is
yet
another wasted skillset for me (somewhat happily so, i suppose).

I saved that link. First I'll see if I can get by with Mom's sweaters.
I have an abundance of them. Luckily there are a few grandkids popping
out so she shifted to making sweaters for them.

The weather here in northern California just dropped from the low 90's
to low 60's with rain, in one week. I haven't been on the bike for about
4 days now and I am trying to come up with a strategy. Since you always
get warmer as you ride I am thinking of using my back pack for clothing.
That means starting out well dressed and as I heat up or the weather gets
warmer during the day I can put the sweater, gloves or whatever in the
back pack. This may work until it gets really cold and heavy jackets are
needed, but that is where I stop anything like a long trip. I found out
last year that it is too easy to get all sweaty in a thick jacket, and
taking it off puts you back into the freezing mode. Multiple sweat tops
and two pair of gloves, thick and thin, might work, but there is still
that issue of having to ride with a back pack.
I was hoping for a gradual cooldown and not a kablam.
This looks like a good time for ideas.

This picture shows a group of us heading out for a couple of hour ride with
a starting temp of 0 F last winter.
http://home.comcast.net/~peter_cole/P2190003.JPG
(I'm the tall one in black with a yellow helmet)

I was way too warm. The secret to cold weather riding is vents/zippers and
layers. This allows you to fine tune insulation and moisture control. The 2
real problem areas are hands and feet. The cheap hand solution is mittens &
shells for real cold, or 2 pairs of gloves. I use thin X/C skiing gloves
under fleece gloves most of the time, mittens only for real frigid. Bigger
shoes with extra socks is the cheapest solution for feet, even sneakers
work fine down to single digits with thick enough socks.

It's hard to beat synthetic fleece for light weight warmth and good vapor
transfer. I prefer not to use fancy "windblocking" fleece, since a thin
nylon/poly vest worn over is cheaper and allows better tuning. Stretch
synthetic fleece tights work amazingly well, if you don't do tights, fleece
warm-ups work, but the circulating air makes them much less effective for
warmth.

If I'm going out long, or alone, I always pack an extra layer in case I get
chilled or have to stop. I might bungee extra clothes to a rear rack,
camelback, or even the handlebar. Another advantage of fleece is that it
rolls up small. Usually, 3 light layers on top is enough, opening zippers,
removing the outer wind vest, etc. allows enough adjustability. A typical
setup on a 20-40 deg. day is stretch fleece LS top, regular mid-weight
fleece LS jacket, poly wind vest (mesh back), with stretch fleece tights
over regular bike shorts.

Cold rain is the hardest thing to dress for. I use a full supplex (DWR)
jacket with a lot of vents, PVC rain pants shortened to knicker length,
latex shoe covers, and neoprene gloves. I picked up the last 2 items at a
mail-order industrial supply house (McMaster-Carr). In all my cold rain
glory:

http://home.comcast.net/~peter_cole/ice5.jpg

I have just come though a winter (New Zealand) cycling most days.

I wore polypro, or merino (fine wool) thermals as a base - long
sleeved. Followed by lycra, or similar, followed by cycling jackets.

My biggest issue was keeping the neck and torso warm, as arms and legs
warm up naturally.

I have at least 2 of each type of underclothing, as after each ride,
or a couple they got pretty wiffy.

The specialist stuff I wear comes almost exclusivly from here, this
stuff is awesome, where I live any sport meets see many people in this
brand...
http://www.groundeffect.co.nz/products.php?category=RAI

Flash gordon, is for rain, phantom for wind and vespa for wind.

The best thing about "specialist gear" is in their cut, light weight,
long tails, warm fleece necks, arms cut to a cycle bend, thumb loops
to hold sleeves down and underarm vents to release heat.

For leggings I have http://www.groundeffect.co.nz/products.php?category=LON
Daddy long legs, I was disapointed to find that lycra leggings do not
keep you very warm, as a reuslt wore polypro leggings as well
underneath, + cycle shorts (black mambas)
http://www.groundeffect.co.nz/products.php?category=SHO

Socks are thermal hiking socks. Gloves, fingerless ski gloves - wool,
pollypro mix. (fingers warm up fast) Heck everything warms up fast if
you are really doing some work :-)

Specialist gear generally costs more, but if you are careful to get a
good brand they are well worth it, especially the over clothes for the
cuts and other features above. If you keep it exclusivly for cycling
the they last forever.

Finally ended up at Target where there is a line of stuff made from
something called C9, which I guess is the house brand of
polyester/spandex. I bought a few shirts at $14 or so and a light
jacket type for a few bucks more. Plus a fleece (that word seems to be
around a lot, including 80% cotton mixes) mid-layer thing that was
100% polyester.

This morning I wore a shirt and the jacket type thing, plus a cheapo
windbreaker and was fine this morning, although the temperature wasn't
supercold (42F). I did not feel wet at all, as I have in the past with
cotton stuff.

Is there some reason that this C9 stuff is not as good as the more
expensive varieties? I think it will be even warmer once I use the
fleece layer.

I've looked at the C9 stuff at Target, and is basically what I expected:
Lightweight low-grade fabrics cheaply made to hit a price point.

If it's working for you, great, but I'd expect it will wear out well before
better quality garment.


Chris Neary


"Science, freedom, beauty, adventu what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

"dgk" wrote in message
...
I've been bike commuting since May and would like to keep doing it but
my normal TShirt/Shorts combo is not going to make it happen. So I've
read a bunch of threads on the threads and have an idea of what would
be required. Plus I've read the IceBike site.

Where do you live? This is probably the most important factor in helping
you. Here, typical winter temps are in the lower 40s and raining.
Occasionally it dips down lower, but then it usually isn't wet. So that's
going to influence what I'd suggest.

Torso:
Bottom layer: something that wicks -- a polyester or silk long-sleeved
undershirt. Pricey brands are unnecessary.
Middling layers: If you want to save money, an excellent warmth layer is a
wool sweater, an old or used one. If it's moth-eaten, it doesn't matter,
because who's going to see the holes? I don't know about acrylic. Fleece is
ok, too. If it's really cold, you can do both wool and fleece.
Top layer: wind or waterproof top layer is nice. Even better when the top
layer does both, and breathes, too, but that starts to get pricey.
Visibility layer: you might want to consider a dorky reflective vest and
high-vis colors for your jacket. You may feel stupid wearing a lime green
jacket and a hazard orange vest over it, but most winter commuting is done
in the dark, and you want to be *seen*.

Legs:
A decent pair of winter-weight tights is what I recommend. Yes, these will
be pricey in October -- the time to buy them is when they go on sale in the
spring. I see the REI-outlet site has Pearl Izumi Therma Fleeces on sale
now, but they're still 50 bucks a pair. Survive now on the least number you
can own, and buy them at the end of the season. If it's not wet or sloppy,
you can wear these several times without washing. I wouldn't bother with
rain pants -- they sound both uncomfortable and inflexible, but I've never
tried them, so what do I know.

Feet:
Wool socks, booties for when it's really wet or cold.

Head:
Polypro cap for under the helmet when it's really cold. I would suffocate in
a balaclava, but people in colder places than here swear by them.

Gloves:
Long-finger gloves are a requirement. You can use an old pair of ski gloves
for this, but bicycle gloves often have a reflective strip or piping, and
considering that you really want to show up when its dark during commuter
hours, these might be worth while springing for.


Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
please substitute yahoo for mousepotato to reply
Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

Badger_South wrote in message
The function of biking gloves isn't really to keep your hands warm, though.
I use mine to wipe the tires, check the chain, reduce some vibration and
prevent road rash. A silk liner underneath the bike gloves seems like a
nice option. In that case you'd want to get one size larger biking gloves,
maybe? I have only been back to biking for one winter and I wore medium
weight polypro gloves at the time. I'll have to see how full fingered
biking gloves do with the cold.


Actually there are some gloves that keep your hands warm in even very
cold weather. Pear Izumi Lobsters are one version and there are some
others. I can wear mine only when the temp is below ~35 F.I've worn
them to ~20 F and my hands were the least of my cold problems :-)
Above that I have some full fingered neoprene gloves that keep my
hands warm but get ery wet-but they dry in a few hours.

Let me react a bit to the whole price thing. Over the years I've come
to the conclusion that often the most costly initial purchase is the
least expensive over time. I understand and appreciate that some folks
simply do not have the $$$ available to put out for expensive gear.
But if you can it is often the least expensive long term solution. I
have lots of gear that has over ten years of hard use on it. the
algebra is pretty simple -- if something costs twice as much and last
four times as long it is really one half the cost per unit of time.

As to the cheap labor issue. I understand the issue but in practical
terms almost all soft goods are manufactured in "low wage" areas. That
goes for top of the line as well as inexpensive junk. So, if you
cannot live with yourself if the product is made at 3rd world wages-
you will be limited to a small array of product. That's OK if that is
your belief!

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:45:14 GMT, Peter Cole
wrote:
big snip
If I'm going out long, or alone, I always pack an extra layer in case I
get
chilled or have to stop. I might bungee extra clothes to a rear rack,
camelback, or even the handlebar. Another advantage of fleece is that it
rolls up small. Usually, 3 light layers on top is enough, opening
zippers,
removing the outer wind vest, etc. allows enough adjustability. A typical
setup on a 20-40 deg. day is stretch fleece LS top, regular mid-weight
fleece LS jacket, poly wind vest (mesh back), with stretch fleece tights
over regular bike shorts.

Cold rain is the hardest thing to dress for. I use a full supplex (DWR)
jacket with a lot of vents, PVC rain pants shortened to knicker length,
latex shoe covers, and neoprene gloves. I picked up the last 2 items at a
mail-order industrial supply house (McMaster-Carr). In all my cold rain
glory:

http://home.comcast.net/~peter_cole/ice5.jpg


Kind of hard core biking, isn't it? I draw the line at rain since the
tires throw it up in my face and that gets old in a hurry. Same thing
for puddles after the rain, either avoid or slow down to walking speed
to get past them. Snow would be better to ride in but this part of
California only gets rain all the time. It makes me miss Minnesota
where you could at least venture out in the quiet whiteness.
Bill Baka

"Bill Baka" wrote in message
news

Kind of hard core biking, isn't it? I draw the line at rain since the
tires throw it up in my face and that gets old in a hurry. Same thing
for puddles after the rain, either avoid or slow down to walking speed
to get past them. Snow would be better to ride in but this part of
California only gets rain all the time. It makes me miss Minnesota
where you could at least venture out in the quiet whiteness.

Hard core is only in your mind. It's either that, or stay home. New England
winters are just to long to endure cabin fever. Biking is really no
different than skiing, skating or hiking in the winter, and lots of people
do those. Heck, I'm still sailing. As they say: "There is no bad weather,
only bad clothes".

As for rain, get some fenders, they make a world of difference. The bike in
the picture is my road snow bike, so no fenders with the studded tires. All
of my other bikes have full fenders.

Badger_South wrote:

The function of biking gloves isn't really to keep your hands warm, though.
I use mine to wipe the tires, check the chain, reduce some vibration and
prevent road rash. A silk liner underneath the bike gloves seems like a
nice option. In that case you'd want to get one size larger biking gloves,
maybe? I have only been back to biking for one winter and I wore medium
weight polypro gloves at the time. I'll have to see how full fingered
biking gloves do with the cold.

Keeping my hands warm is an ongoing struggle, since I have some
inherited thing that stops circulation to my hands when it's cold.
I've come up with a system that seems to work best for me. It relies
on layering. I start with polypro glove liners, worn underneath my
normal fingerless riding gloves. That keeps me warm down to about
45F. I have different thicknesses of these glove liners -- one pair
is even "waterproof" (more like water resistant, really). If it gets
still colder, I have a pair of very lightweight Pearl Izumi nylon
shell gloves. These pull over my other gloves, block out the wind
and keep my fingers warm down to about freezing. For truly cold and
wet riding, I just picked up a pair of Pearl Izumi
waterproof/breathable shell gloves. I haven't tried them yet, but
tomorrow's storm promises to be a good shake-down for these gloves.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 23:36:30 +0000, Claire Petersky wrote:

Torso:
Bottom layer: something that wicks -- a polyester or silk long-sleeved
undershirt.

Silk is usually out of range in terms of price. If it's gonna be cold
enough, decent longjohns are great. Cheap cotton longjohns are not great;
cotton holds moisture. Polyester, or fancier outdoors-stuff is what
you want.

layer is nice. Even better when the top layer does both, and breathes,
too, but that starts to get pricey.

A jacket should have pit zippers and a back vent for Fall/Spring. In
winter you'll want to close it all up most of the time.

A decent pair of winter-weight tights is what I recommend.

Longjohns and comfortable pants (for me, not blue jeans; I use hiker-type
pants with lots of pockets) will do well also. When it's really cold I go
for cycling tights (the ones with wind-blocking front layers are great)
under the pants.

Feet:
Wool socks, booties for when it's really wet or cold.

For me, booties are essential, especially so for longer rides. Once your
feet really get cold, it's no fun. Hands can warm up if you ride harder,
but feet just keep getting worse.

Head:
Polypro cap for under the helmet when it's really cold. I would
suffocate in a balaclava, but people in colder places than here swear by
them.

Balaclavas are great in colder weather. I have three different weights.

Gloves:
Long-finger gloves are a requirement.

Some people swear by two-finger mittens ("lobster claws"), but unless you
are in the frozen North they are overkill IMO. I don't over-do gloves,
since if your hands get all sweaty you will be both cold and
uncomfortable. Glove liners can add extra warmth when it's really cold.

Emergencies: If you find yourself suffering, stop where you can find a
newspaper. Stuff layers in your shirt, and maybe also your sleeves and
pants, to block the wind. Plastic bags between your socks and shoes also
helps tremendously.

--

David L. Johnson

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