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Tire pressure on hot days?
"Peter Cole" wrote in message news:fFCQa.60384$Ph3.5911@sccrnsc04...
"Sam Huffman" wrote in message news My sister was in a race in last month during which the temperature went from about 60 degrees in the morning to 95 degrees in the mid-afternoon. The bike techs were pumping tires up to full pressure, but a friend advised her to drop the pressure to about 125 psi from her usual 175 psi due to the anticipated heat. (PV=nRT, I suppose). I'll be doing some light touring later this summer in similar conditions, and am wondering if this is something I should watch out for? I.e. let air out of my tires mid-day? I generally run close to the maximum listed tire pressure. Or is this yet another tire pressure myth? Something else to consider is the possibility that the temperature of asphalt and air near the ground is significantly hotter than the air where most people hold thermometers. I'm not sure how much of this may transfer to the tire and rim. |
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#12
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Tire pressure on hot days?
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:05:15 +0200, KGB wrote:
Conti. Grandprix can be pumped to 175 psi, but what about the rim, Mavic recomend up to about 130 psi With tubulars, the rims don't care what the pressure is. The bike would certainly ride like a rock, though. -- David L. Johnson __o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can _`\(,_ | only be cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and (_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis and Ferraris. -- Glenn Davies |
#13
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Tire pressure on hot days?
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 03:56:22 +0000, Werehatrack wrote:
On 14 Jul 2003 08:56:34 -0700, Sam Huffman may have said: I saw a reference to an experiment done on car tires in which an increase in ambient temperature from 67 to 85 degrees (~ 5%) Sorry, that's not a 5% change unless you're measuring the temp in Kelvin...and 85K is mighty cold. Um, if that were the Kelvin temperatures it would not be a 5% increase, but a 27% increase. I do believe the guy was converting Fahrenheit to Kelvin, computing the percentage change there, and noting that. 67F=292.6K, 85F=302.6K (302.6-292.6)/292.6 = 3.4%. Well, OK, he was a little off. As far as the rest of the claims go, I*have never experienced it, but there are those who claim their tires have blown off the rims while the bike is locked up inside a car. Sun streaming in, no air circulation. Certainly, though, on a long descent the air inside the tube can be seriously heated by the hot rims. Melting tubular glue was quite common. -- David L. Johnson __o | I don't believe you, you've got the whole damn thing all wrong. _`\(,_ | He's not the kind you have to wind-up on Sundays. --Ian (_)/ (_) | Anderson |
#14
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Tire pressure on hot days?
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 01:23:41 -0400, "David L. Johnson"
may have said: As far as the rest of the claims go, I*have never experienced it, but there are those who claim their tires have blown off the rims while the bike is locked up inside a car. Sun streaming in, no air circulation. And temps as high as 180F, possibly higher in the desert Southwest. Given the rather flexy beads and shallow rims of bike tires relative to the rim diameters, it would not be surprising to see a tire lift out of the bead if it was a high-pressure unit to begin with and had a temp increase of that severity. That's not really a *riding* hazard situation, though, it's a *storage and transport* issue. Except for the type of event you describe involving a long descent, I can't think of a reason to expect this sort of overheating problem *while riding*, since an environmental temp of that magnitude would have a certain amount of effect on the rider. Now, if a decent disc brake could be had for a non-ruinous price, even the braking heat problem could be ignored. Certainly, though, on a long descent the air inside the tube can be seriously heated by the hot rims. Melting tubular glue was quite common. If it were not for the concerns about weight and aerodynamics, it would be relatively easy to reduce this problem by making an aluminum rim with exposed short (on the order of 3 to 5 mm) heat dissipation ridges on the inner flat surface flanking the spokes. Aluminum carries heat and sheds it very well, so the effects of prolonged braking should not be hard to ameliorate in this way. (For the competition rider, of course, the two conerns mentioned would override the safety gain...but for the casual or commuter rider, I'd think there might be a market in areas where the terrain is more vertical than I'd personally want to try to ride.) --- My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy. |
#15
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Tire pressure on hot days?
Werehatrack writes:
On 14 Jul 2003 08:56:34 -0700, Sam Huffman may have said: I saw a reference to an experiment done on car tires in which an increase in ambient temperature from 67 to 85 degrees (~ 5%) Sorry, that's not a 5% change unless you're measuring the temp in Kelvin...and 85K is mighty cold. David got it right; I had already converted to Kelvin, though apparently I should have used a calculator instead of my noodle 3.4% it is. resulted in tire pressure increasing from 35 to 36.5 psi (~ 4%), which is probably within experimental error. And, quite frankly, that's much less than the variation normally found from tire to tire on the average real-world non-competition vehicle. In other words, a difference of no consequence whatever. However the same experiment found that the tire in direct sunlight increased from 35 to 40 psi (~ 14%), which assuming the same result applies to bicycle tires, might become problematic if someone rides near or at maximum pressure normally. Those tires must have been getting awfully hot. or must have been in the freezer when they were aired up. The tires in the experiment were 35 psi at 67 degrees (no direct sunlight), 36.5 psi at 85 degrees in the shade, and 40 psi at 85 degrees in the sunlight. So based on that, 4% of the increase was from ambient temperature and 10% was from sunlight. I was wondering if anyone had any experimental or anecdotal evidence that might apply to cycling. The easy test you can do yourself is this; try changing the tire pressure on your bike by the 4% amount you mentioned, and see if you can detect the difference in a ride. I think you'll discover that you can't. My concern isn't the 4%, but rather the 14%. My guess would be the additional 10% from direct sunlight is a constant adder on top of the pressure change, so on a 60F - 95F day, one might expect a 17% increase in tire pressure. From that and the other input I've gotten it sounds reasonable to adjust tire pressure mid-day, though probably not crucial, given that a tire rated at 110 psi is more likely to blow if it's at 130 psi than at 110 psi. Thanks for the input, Sam |
#16
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Tire pressure on hot days?
On 14 Jul 2003 08:56:34 -0700, Sam Huffman
wrote: I saw a reference to an experiment done on car tires in which an ambient temperature from 67 to 85 degrees (~ 5%) resulted in tire increasing from 35 to 36.5 psi (~ 4%), which is probably within experimental error. However the same experiment found that the tire in direct sunlight from 35 to 40 psi (~ 14%), which assuming the same result applies to bicycle tires, might become problematic if someone rides near or at maximum pressure normally. Additional factors to keep in mind: 1. Direct sunlight on a black tubless tire with a wide auto tread and high profile would definately heat the tire significantly. The same light on a narrow bicycle tread, combined with the possible lighter color of the sidewall (or even the tread) and the fact that the tire has layers of nylon or kevlar between the tread and the tube (vs. just steel braid, covered in rubber, with no tube in an automotive tire), would have a different result. 2. While riding, the tire is subject to wind, and maybe shade, which cools it down, but is also subject to heating factors including normal (friction, rolling resistance) and climate-related (pavement in hot sun on a hot day get HOT; try cooking a frozen pizza on it and see what I mean). 3. Uhh, I forgot. Stupid phone calls distract me. What do people think they're doing, calling me at the office during standard business hours to discuss, of all things, business? -- Rick Onanian |
#17
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Tire pressure on hot days?
On 15 Jul 2003 08:49:20 -0700, Sam Huffman
wrote: The tires in the experiment were 35 psi at 67 degrees (no direct 36.5 psi at 85 degrees in the shade, and 40 psi at 85 degrees in the Maybe more importantly, size (width, profile, and rim) and position (front wheels turned away from car into sunlight? Wheel removed from the car and left standing in sun?). The factors relating to pressure change in an automotive tire that I can think of work this way: - Width: If the tread sees the sun, then it is more surface area getting direct heat. - Wider tires whose tread are sheltered by the car have more air in them to heat up for the same surface area exposed, so they will not heat up as quickly, and probably not as much. - Profile: This is the sidewall measured from the rim to the tread. This will get the most sunlight, and is generally thinner than the tread, probably resulting in transmitting the heat sooner and more strongly. - Rim size: Other two measurements being the same (if measured in absolute units, instead of the percentages used to sell the tires), changing the rim size of the tire results in, of course, more air volume, as well as more profile surface area (though less change in tread surface exposed to the sun). Bicycle tires have small profiles, depending on how you're comparing. Consider that a bicycle rim is bigger than an automotive rim, and a bicycle tire's outside diameter is yet smaller. Then calculate in the percentage difference in width, and you can figure out how a bicycle tire's profile relates to an automtive tire's profile, and also air volume. Now that I've said all that, I must say...I'm not nuts enough to actually DO all those calculations. Personally, I'd just try my luck at my preferred pressure. Where can I get 175psi tires, and what tubes will keep that pressure without leaking? My two road bikes have 125psi tires (Hutchinson Carbon Comp on my Giant TCR2, and Serfas Seca on my recently rescued, still un- identified Peugeot). Who am I kidding...125psi is more than stiff enough for me! Oh, one more thing: At 175psi, I doubt that rolling resistance has a chance to heat the tire. -- Rick Onanian |
#18
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Tire pressure on hot days?
On 14 Jul 2003 09:07:55 -0700, Sam Huffman
wrote: not. My cheapo floor pump goes to 160psi I think, so presumably some Ah, there's the other problem. If you come up with tires, tubes, and rims that do 175psi...How the hell do you pump them up that high? I'm in the roofing business, and although my compressors can provide 120psi, I can't get anywhere near it by the time it gets through a presta valve...I had to buy a floor pump, and it's tough pumping 125psi. How the hell do you get 175 in there??? -- Rick Onanian |
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