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#11
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rear-facing dropouts
Tosspot wrote:
Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather than dropouts? Stops the rear wheel falling off. Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come loose the chain will still hold the wheel to make time for an emergency stop? Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]" between track ends and dropouts? I always considered dropouts better and more modern but now that I think about it I don't know how or why I came to that. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
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#12
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rear-facing dropouts
On 10/24/2018 1:14 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Tosspot wrote: Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather than dropouts? Stops the rear wheel falling off. Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come loose the chain will still hold the wheel to make time for an emergency stop? Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]" between track ends and dropouts? I always considered dropouts better and more modern but now that I think about it I don't know how or why I came to that. Click to enlarge images: http://www.yellowjersey.org/sisend.html For single gear (fixed, FW, internal gearbox) you need an inch of horizontal adjustment so any design except single-point ends work. For modern index derailleur gearing there are other subtleties to optimize shift response. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#13
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rear-facing dropouts
On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 2:14:41 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Tosspot wrote: Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather than dropouts? Stops the rear wheel falling off. Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come loose the chain will still hold the wheel to make time for an emergency stop? Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]" between track ends and dropouts? I always considered dropouts better and more modern but now that I think about it I don't know how or why I came to that. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 One advantage with rear facing track ends is that you can have the tire nearly touching the seat tube and still be able to get the wheel off without having to deflate it. That's because you don't need space with track ends to pull the wheel forward so the axle clears the slot. You do with forward facing dropouts. Forward facing dropouts give you a good place to hang your derailleur. Cheers |
#14
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rear-facing dropouts
On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 4:55:46 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/24/2018 9:37 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote: As for terminology, here is what it says: Track bikes have rear-facing dropouts and 120mm-space hubs (rather than 130mm of a road bike). Rear-facing dropouts offer a stronger and simpler solution to adjusting chain tension and accommodating variations in sprocket (gear) sizes. Page 188, @book{complete-road-bike-maintenance, author = {Guy Andrews}, ISBN = {978 1 4081 7093 9}, publisher = {Bloomsbury}, title = {Complete Road Bike Maintenance}, year = 2013 } Nonsense. There's no functional difference for chain tension or gearing between this: http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/mer11b.jpg and this: http://www.yellowjersey.org/endaxis.jpg Hell, yes, of course there is a difference between rear facing and forward facing slots. The weight of the chain cannot pull the wheel out of the slot while you're trying to fix it with rear facing slots, whereas with forward facing slots you need a second person to hold the wheel in the slot while you turn the spanner. Andre Jute In real life people don't have a third, fourth and fifth hand. Well, my bonobo often seemed to be quadridexterous, but they were chimps, not bicyclists. |
#15
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rear-facing dropouts
On 10/24/18 9:29 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 2:14:41 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote: Tosspot wrote: Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather than dropouts? Stops the rear wheel falling off. Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come loose the chain will still hold the wheel to make time for an emergency stop? Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]" between track ends and dropouts? I always considered dropouts better and more modern but now that I think about it I don't know how or why I came to that. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 One advantage with rear facing track ends is that you can have the tire nearly touching the seat tube and still be able to get the wheel off without having to deflate it. That's because you don't need space with track ends to pull the wheel forward so the axle clears the slot. You do with forward facing dropouts. Forward facing dropouts give you a good place to hang your derailleur. There is no real reason 'track' fork ends can't have a derailleur, they just don't. The advantages of each style are well known, but basically single/fixes/hubs like a track end for 'easy' chain adjustment, every body else would use forward facing or vertical for ease of getting the rear wheel off/on. In my case, I use a vertical, with one of these, albeit generic, https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/singleator Which works very well imho, giving me the perceived advantages of a hub drive, without the hassle of chain tensioning or the fudge or a short reach derailleur. Yes Andre, I know, I can live with it. See also https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Drop..._101_3354.html |
#16
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rear-facing dropouts
On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 1:16:32 AM UTC-4, Tosspot wrote:
Snipped There is no real reason 'track' fork ends can't have a derailleur, they just don't. The advantages of each style are well known, but basically single/fixes/hubs like a track end for 'easy' chain adjustment, every body else would use forward facing or vertical for ease of getting the rear wheel off/on. In my case, I use a vertical, with one of these, albeit generic, https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/singleator Which works very well imho, giving me the perceived advantages of a hub drive, without the hassle of chain tensioning or the fudge or a short reach derailleur. Yes Andre, I know, I can live with it. See also https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Drop..._101_3354.html Looks a lot as though that Sinleator was developed from either a V-brake caliper or an old school straight arm cantilever brake arm. Cheers |
#17
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rear-facing dropouts
Andre Jute wrote:
whereas with forward facing slots you need a second person to hold the wheel in the slot while you turn the spanner. Easier to turn the bike upside down and let the axis fall into the dropout with the chain on. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#18
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rear-facing dropouts
On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 3:37:48 AM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute wrote: whereas with forward facing slots you need a second person to hold the wheel in the slot while you turn the spanner. Easier to turn the bike upside down and let the axis fall into the dropout with the chain on. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Yet MILLIONS of people who own bicycles with forward facing dropouts and nutted rear axles manage to replace a rear wheel all by themselves often at the side of the road and without having to turn the bicycle upside down either. Cheers |
#19
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rear-facing dropouts
On 10/25/2018 12:16 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 10/24/18 9:29 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 2:14:41 PM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote: Tosspot wrote: Is there a reason, besides the common use of hub gearboxes, so many Dutch commuters these days have track ends rather than dropouts? Stops the rear wheel falling off. Is this a joke or do you mean if the nuts come loose the chain will still hold the wheel to make time for an emergency stop? Yeah, what *are* the "functional difference[s]" between track ends and dropouts? I always considered dropouts better and more modern but now that I think about it I don't know how or why I came to that. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 One advantage with rear facing track ends is that you can have the tire nearly touching the seat tube and still be able to get the wheel off without having to deflate it. That's because you don't need space with track ends to pull the wheel forward so the axle clears the slot. You do with forward facing dropouts. Forward facing dropouts give you a good place to hang your derailleur. There is no real reason 'track' fork ends can't have a derailleur, they just don't. The advantages of each style are well known, but basically single/fixes/hubs like a track end for 'easy' chain adjustment, every body else would use forward facing or vertical for ease of getting the rear wheel off/on. In my case, I use a vertical, with one of these, albeit generic, https://surlybikes.com/parts/drivetrain/singleator Which works very well imho, giving me the perceived advantages of a hub drive, without the hassle of chain tensioning or the fudge or a short reach derailleur. Yes Andre, I know, I can live with it. See also https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Drop..._101_3354.html see also : http://www.yellowjersey.org/RIVTRACK.JPG -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#20
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rear-facing dropouts
On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 11:59:37 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 3:37:48 AM UTC-4, Emanuel Berg wrote: Andre Jute wrote: whereas with forward facing slots you need a second person to hold the wheel in the slot while you turn the spanner. Easier to turn the bike upside down and let the axis fall into the dropout with the chain on. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Yet MILLIONS of people who own bicycles with forward facing dropouts and nutted rear axles manage to replace a rear wheel all by themselves often at the side of the road and without having to turn the bicycle upside down either. Cheers Congratulations to you and to them, Ridealot. You've all failed Ergonomics 101. Andre Jute "Best I can do, guv," isn't good enough |
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