Why does Dura Ace cost way more than Ultegra

StaceyJ wrote:
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
A Muzi wrote:


On which planet is Ultegra cheap????


"Planet OEM"


I recently read an article in a trade publication positing that 'Planet
OEM' underlies the recent trend of mail order companies
(Performance/Supergo, Colorado Cyclist, Excel Sports, etc.)
establishing their own bike lines. Once you become a 'manufacturer',
you may access all of your pieces/parts at OEM pricing, which (so I've
read) significantly undercuts even the most aggressive bulk purchasing
of retail components.



And it's so easy to become a "manufacturer" today; Just commit to
several hundred frames with one of the Asian robo-welder facilities and
they'll stick any name you want on "your" bike. Poof! you have a line
of bikes every bit as valid as the entry level Treks, Specializeds,
etc. (In fact, they were probably made in the same plant.) And, you
stand to make far more money on finished bikes, frames and raw
components. And, you can give your customers a better value to boot.

"Mark Janeba" wrote in
message ...
wrote:

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
Yeah, funny indeed. Makes you wonder if the guy ever actually
rode a
bike with DT shifters, or just listened to the folklore
chirped by the
kiddies at the LBS.

I rode with downtube shifters and toeclips. Rode my first
century when
I was 11. How old were you and the other internet bicyclists
before
you were old enough to ride real miles?

That's impressive. I can't get my 10 year old to ride more than
25 miles -- on the back of my tandem. No way I'll get him to do
100 miles by next year on his gripshift cruiser. Plus, I think
that the Children's Services Division would take him away if I
got him to ride that far.


First century at 16, with stem-mounted friction shifters,
toeclips and
sneakers, and even the mis-named "safety" brake levers. First
double
century at 17, with DT friction shifters, and toeclips.

That's impressive, too -- but less impressive than 11 years old.
I therefore reject your opinons on the importance of STI. Sorry.
Perhaps if you had done 200 miles at 10 years old you would be
more credible.

snip

I agree that Ergo is (much) nicer, but it and STI certainly
haven't made
the massive differences you are claiming. Cycling was alive
and well in
the early 80's pre-*indexing*, much less pre-Ergo/STI. AFAICT,
the
popularity of road cycling was still declining in the US for
years after
the introduction of indexed shifting, STI, and Ergo. I can't
see that
they had any significant impact at all, or if so, that impact
was
overwhelmed by the Lance factor.

And let's not forget that us hardened cyclists thought that
click-shifting was a crutch for girly-men who could not master
friction shifting. Serious cyclists were not lining up to buy
SIS. We were spitting at the ground and grumbling about the
technical and aesthetic superiority of Nuovo Record friction
shifters and All Things Campagnolo.

SIS was also f****** expensive and available only in Dura Ace.
Same with STI. I did not see a bunch of couch potatoes lining up
to shell out good money to buy Dura Ace click shifters when they
came out. The butt-crack crowd seemed to be more interested in
Stumpjumpers. I think fat tires, upright position and
thumbshifters lured a lot of beginners away from road bikes. The
market went that way, too.

Frankly, I thought that road riding fell out of popularity due to
the trend away from wool shorts and towards revealing lycra
shorts. -- Jay Beattie.

Matt O'Toole wrote:

All modern Shimano hubs are better sealed than D-A used to be.

Except Sora that still have inferior contact seals only, just like
(very) old Dura-Ace.

Dunno what the weight difference actually is. ???

I had both and Ultegra ST-6500 weighed 451 g, while ST-7700 392 g. New,
10 speed STI levers are even heavier, 30 - 40 g on average.

--
Best regards,
Rado bladteth Rzeznicki
(swap 'w' with 'v' when replying)

Tim McNamara wrote:
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" writes:

shimano are experts at OEM

From what little I've read in trade magazines and other media sources,
Peter has nailed a large part of the reason for Shimano's dominance.
Shimano has been very attentive to designs that reduce labor time (and
hence costs) for bike manufacturers. Some of what is touted as
Shimano's technical innovation in the bike press was actually
developed to make bike assembly faster and cheaper, such as cassettes,
cartridge BBs and V-brakes. Shimano has also been attentive to how
components are packaged in order to facilitate efficient building.
Campagnolo fell behind in all of these areas and this has cost them
much OEM market share. They've been playing catchup ever since.

IMHO the main reason for most riders to choose between Campy and
Shimano is whether they prefer the STI-style or Ergo-style brifters.

How exactly are Americans going to choose between Campagnolo and
Shimano on their bicycles when almost 100% of the bicycles sold in the
factory bike shops are Shimano equipped. Trek, Cannondale,
Specialized, Giant are either 100% exclusive Shimano or only have one
token bike in Campagnolo in their lineup. These four brands account
for almost all bikes sold at bike shops in the US. There is no choice
of whether an American bike rider wants Shimano or Campagnolo. Your
choice is which Shimano group. In my midwest metropolis of about
400,000 people and a dozen bike shops, there are maybe, maybe 5
Campagnolo equipped bikes on the dozen shop floors. Compared to a
thousand Shimano equipped bikes on these dozen shop floors.

The only American bike rider who can choose between Campagnolo and
Shimano are the tiny, tiny percentage of riders who buy separate
frames/forks and build the bike themselves. Compared to the factory
bike sales, this is a miniscule percentage. American bike riders want
to buy a bike, not all of the parts and assemble it themselves or pay
to have someone assemble it. How many people using the internet bought
a complete computer or assembled it themselves with the box, mother
board, chips, modem, fan, drives, software, etc. Its probably the same
percentages in computers as bicycles.



The next reason is whether you are going to ride a lot and whether
durability and rebuildability are important to you, in which case
Campy gets the nod.

From a marketing perspective, Campy seems to equate Chorus with
Dura-Ace, and therefore Record is a cut above Dura-Ace as defined by
price point.

A Muzi wrote:
Donald Gillies wrote:

I think the correct way to phrase your question is, "Why is Ultegra
so dang cheap?" I have always been astonished at the pricepoint for
Ultegra components, the incredibly low cost of Ultegra seems to have
kept Campagnolo on its back for the past 10 years at least.

Huh?

With a Centaur package running $1030 to an Ultegra's $1450
we built three Shimano bikes last year - and scores of Centaur.

Your Centaur build kit seems to be $200 less than others and your
Ultegra seems to be $300 more than others.

GVH Bikes has Centaur build kit double for $1250, Ultegra for $1175.
Chorus $1650, Dura Ace $1795, Record $2225. All 10 speed kits.

Colorado Cyclist lists its build kits as Chorus $1749, Dura Ace $1869,
Record $2259, Ultegra $1179. All 10 speed with similar wheelsets,
parts. About a 10% decrease in price if you buy a frame/fork from
them.

Excel build kits are Centaur $1299, Chorus $1769, Record $2249, Dura
Ace $1891, Ultegra $1144.

Centaur and Ultegra are pretty equal in price. Chorus is $200 cheaper
than Dura Ace and $300 more than Ultegra. Record is $400 more than
Dura Ace. Roughly.




On which planet is Ultegra cheap????

Campagnolo on its back?? They sell everything they make.
Many manufacturers in many industries would love to be able
to say that.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 8 Jan 2006 00:41:37 -0800, wrote:

The only American bike rider who can choose between Campagnolo and
Shimano are the tiny, tiny percentage of riders who buy separate
frames/forks and build the bike themselves. Compared to the factory
bike sales, this is a miniscule percentage. American bike riders want
to buy a bike, not all of the parts and assemble it themselves or pay
to have someone assemble it. How many people using the internet bought
a complete computer or assembled it themselves with the box, mother
board, chips, modem, fan, drives, software, etc. Its probably the same
percentages in computers as bicycles.

There's a much larger proportion that has the shop assemble a bike from
components selected by the buyer, though. That goes for both computers and
bikes.

Jasper