Voodoo Wazoo has my head spinning

Hello - Does anyone have information regarding a Voodoo Wazoo Cyclocross
frame?

To clarify, I have heard that Voodoo is no more but ... the Phat Tire web
site is selling new frames. I'm not clear whether these are NOS or newly
manufactured. And I cannot find any important specifications.
http://www.phattire.com/vocybifr.html

More to the point, I need a fork for a frame that is in shipment but all
major builders ask the same (2) questions for a frame fit: 1) What is the
build height? and 2) what is the fork offset?

I know that european bikes lean toward a 390mm while American lean toward
400mm heights. I also know that the Phat site attempts to sell a Redline
Carbon fork (Conquest?) but it's specifications aren't clear. Can anyone add
clarity to this Voodoooooooo dilema??? Thanks in advance...

"JF" writes:

Hello - Does anyone have information regarding a Voodoo Wazoo
Cyclocross frame?

To clarify, I have heard that Voodoo is no more but ... the Phat
Tire web site is selling new frames. I'm not clear whether these are
NOS or newly manufactured. And I cannot find any important
specifications. http://www.phattire.com/vocybifr.html

More to the point, I need a fork for a frame that is in shipment but
all major builders ask the same (2) questions for a frame fit: 1)
What is the build height? and 2) what is the fork offset?

What's "build height?" Are you referring to headset stack height +
head tube length to determine steerer length? Just use threadless,
it'll come with a way-long steerer, and you just cut off the excess.

Or are you referring to the effective fork leg length, the distance
from the center of the axle to the end of the sockets in the fork
crown? That's a little more arcane, and if you give the builder the
frame and your front wheel, he'll figure it out. Ditto fork offset,
which is usually 40-45 mm and really isn't as significant a number as
many people would have you believe. Many afermarket forks split the
difference with a 43 mm offset.

I know that european bikes lean toward a 390mm while American lean
toward 400mm heights. I also know that the Phat site attempts to
sell a Redline Carbon fork (Conquest?) but it's specifications
aren't clear. Can anyone add clarity to this Voodoooooooo dilema???
Thanks in advance...

390 mm vs 400mm measured from where to where?

"Tim McNamara" wrote:

What's "build height?"

390 mm vs 400mm measured from where to where?

From axle centre to crown race seat. (Sorry JF - I can't help either)

James Thomson

"James Thomson" writes:

"Tim McNamara" wrote:

What's "build height?"

390 mm vs 400mm measured from where to where?

From axle centre to crown race seat. (Sorry JF - I can't help
either)

Well, that depends on what wheels and tires the OP wants to use, and
also whether he wants fender or mudguard clearance, etc. If he wants
fenders and 32 mm tires, that measurement might be 430 mm.

"Tim McNamara" wrote:

Well, that depends on what wheels and tires the OP wants to use,
and also whether he wants fender or mudguard clearance, etc.

Tim, frames are built either with a fork in mind, or an acceptable range
that will give varying handling depending on length and offset. This is
often a question that arises when, for example, attempting to choose a
suitable rigid for for an mtb frame without knowing what length of
suspension fork it might have been designed for, if any. In that case it
might vary from 380mm to 450mm and on up. The fork length needs to be right
for the geometry of the frame, not just to accommodate the wheel and tyre.

If he wants fenders and 32 mm tires, that measurement might
be 430 mm.

JF's cross bike will obviously be designed for a fork that fits a 700c rim,
a 32mm cross tyre, and leaves some room for air and mud. How much is the
question. The nearest equivalent I have to hand is a Dawes Galaxy touring
fork which will take a 700x37c tyre, an SKS fender, and still has plenty of
daylight in between. Axle-to-crown-race measures 390mm. As JF says, Amercan
'cross bikes tend to have a slightly taller fork. I still can't help answer
his question.

James Thomson

"James Thomson" writes:

"Tim McNamara" wrote:

Well, that depends on what wheels and tires the OP wants to use,
and also whether he wants fender or mudguard clearance, etc.

Tim, frames are built either with a fork in mind, or an acceptable
range that will give varying handling depending on length and
offset.

Oddly enough, I know how frames are designed- having done it myself.
After 30+ years of being a bikie and learning how to build frames,
it's possible one might pick this sort of thing up.

The "modern" trend is for frame builders not to build forks, that
being the most time intensive and therefore least profitable aspect of
frame building, and for rather generic aftermarket aluminum or carbon
fiber forks being used instead. Take a look aorund at Web sites and
catalogs- frames sold without forks are the norm. However, any
competent frame builder ought to be able to construct a fork with the
information I suggested. If they can't then the OP ought to take his
business elsewhere.

This is often a question that arises when, for example, attempting
to choose a suitable rigid for for an mtb frame without knowing what
length of suspension fork it might have been designed for, if
any. In that case it might vary from 380mm to 450mm and on up. The
fork length needs to be right for the geometry of the frame, not
just to accommodate the wheel and tyre.

Umm, yes. And in other news, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still
dead.

If he wants fenders and 32 mm tires, that measurement might be 430
mm.

JF's cross bike will obviously be designed for a fork that fits a
700c rim, a 32mm cross tyre, and leaves some room for air and
mud. How much is the question. The nearest equivalent I have to hand
is a Dawes Galaxy touring fork which will take a 700x37c tyre, an
SKS fender, and still has plenty of daylight in
between. Axle-to-crown-race measures 390mm. As JF says, Amercan
'cross bikes tend to have a slightly taller fork.

Sez who? You've measured all of 'em?

I still can't help answer his question.

That doesn't seem to stop you from lecturing me, though.

JF wrote:
Hello - Does anyone have information regarding a Voodoo Wazoo Cyclocross
frame?

To clarify, I have heard that Voodoo is no more but ... the Phat Tire web
site is selling new frames. I'm not clear whether these are NOS or newly
manufactured. And I cannot find any important specifications.
http://www.phattire.com/vocybifr.html

More to the point, I need a fork for a frame that is in shipment but all
major builders ask the same (2) questions for a frame fit: 1) What is the
build height? and 2) what is the fork offset?

I know that european bikes lean toward a 390mm while American lean toward
400mm heights. I also know that the Phat site attempts to sell a Redline
Carbon fork (Conquest?) but it's specifications aren't clear. Can anyone add
clarity to this Voodoooooooo dilema??? Thanks in advance...


the fork shown on that page is perfectly adequate, as is it's quoted price.

"Tim McNamara" wrote:

Oddly enough, I know how frames are designed- having done
it myself. After 30+ years of being a bikie and learning how to
build frames, it's possible one might pick this sort of thing up.

Noted. That's why I found your previous responses strange.

The "modern" trend is for frame builders not to build forks,
that being the most time intensive and therefore least profitable
aspect of frame building, and for rather generic aftermarket
aluminum or carbon fiber forks being used instead. Take a
look aorund at Web sites and catalogs- frames sold without
forks are the norm.

Of course, which is why it's increasingly important to have an idea of the
fork the frame-builder had in mind. Hence JF's question. You know that.

However, any competent frame builder ought to be able to
construct a fork with the information I suggested. If they can't
then the OP ought to take his business elsewhere.

Tim, you didn't suggest any information: you told JF to show his frame to a
fork builder. But he doesn't have the frame yet, hence his question.

This is often a question that arises when, for example, attempting
to choose a suitable rigid for for an mtb frame without knowing what
length of suspension fork it might have been designed for, if
any. In that case it might vary from 380mm to 450mm and on up. The
fork length needs to be right for the geometry of the frame, not
just to accommodate the wheel and tyre.

Umm, yes. And in other news, Generalissimo Francisco Franco
is still dead.

And this just in: "build height" means axle-to-crown-race-seat.

Axle-to-crown-race measures 390mm. As JF says, Amercan
'cross bikes tend to have a slightly taller fork.

Sez who? You've measured all of 'em?

Tim, you previously wrote:

Ditto fork offset, which is usually 40-45 mm

Would a reasonable response to that generalisation have been:

Sez who? You've measured all of 'em?


I still can't help answer his question.

That doesn't seem to stop you from lecturing me, though.

Tim: no lecture intended. You didn't know what "build height" means. It
might be new jargon to you, but it's a commonly understood phrase in
mountain biking when picking a suitable fork. You didn't know, and I did.
Surely, sharing information is what these forums are about.

If it's any help to JF, it seems earlier models of the Wazoo came with a
Kinesis Crosslight fork, which measures toward the high end of the range.

James Thomson

Hello All,

Good news ...I have contacted a number of fabricators and forums in addition
to this newsgroup and still haven't a clue as to the current status of
Voodoo. However, Viscous Cycles has kindly been digging around the industry
....and
has found that Joe Murray was involved with and for, designs at Voodoo. The
build height (axle to crown race) is 400 whereas a 390 will offset my
frame's intended geometry. You guys were helpful and your knowledge, humor
and insight is really appreciated. ....Thank you!

Have a very Happy Holiday! ...JF


"JF" wrote in message
news:ytByd.800588$8_6.445141@attbi_s04...
Hello - Does anyone have information regarding a Voodoo Wazoo Cyclocross
frame?

To clarify, I have heard that Voodoo is no more but ... the Phat Tire web
site is selling new frames. I'm not clear whether these are NOS or newly
manufactured. And I cannot find any important specifications.
http://www.phattire.com/vocybifr.html

More to the point, I need a fork for a frame that is in shipment but all
major builders ask the same (2) questions for a frame fit: 1) What is the
build height? and 2) what is the fork offset?

I know that european bikes lean toward a 390mm while American lean toward
400mm heights. I also know that the Phat site attempts to sell a Redline
Carbon fork (Conquest?) but it's specifications aren't clear. Can anyone
add
clarity to this Voodoooooooo dilema??? Thanks in advance...

"James Thomson" writes:

"Tim McNamara" wrote:

Oddly enough, I know how frames are designed- having done it
myself. After 30+ years of being a bikie and learning how to build
frames, it's possible one might pick this sort of thing up.

Noted. That's why I found your previous responses strange.

The "modern" trend is for frame builders not to build forks, that
being the most time intensive and therefore least profitable aspect
of frame building, and for rather generic aftermarket aluminum or
carbon fiber forks being used instead. Take a look aorund at Web
sites and catalogs- frames sold without forks are the norm.

Of course, which is why it's increasingly important to have an idea
of the fork the frame-builder had in mind. Hence JF's question. You
know that.

I do. I also know that reverse-designing the thing, if neccesary,
isn't all that difficult.

However, any competent frame builder ought to be able to construct
a fork with the information I suggested. If they can't then the OP
ought to take his business elsewhere.

Tim, you didn't suggest any information: you told JF to show his
frame to a fork builder. But he doesn't have the frame yet, hence
his question.

He'll have to wait until he can give the frame and his front wheel to
the builder. I thought that was fairly clear from my post.

This is often a question that arises when, for example,
attempting to choose a suitable rigid for for an mtb frame
without knowing what length of suspension fork it might have been
designed for, if any. In that case it might vary from 380mm to
450mm and on up. The fork length needs to be right for the
geometry of the frame, not just to accommodate the wheel and
tyre.

Umm, yes. And in other news, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is
still dead.

And this just in: "build height" means axle-to-crown-race-seat.

Having read every English language book on frame building available in
the US, "build height" is a term I've never seen. Hence my question.

snip

Tim: no lecture intended. You didn't know what "build height"
means. It might be new jargon to you, but it's a commonly understood
phrase in mountain biking when picking a suitable fork. You didn't
know, and I did. Surely, sharing information is what these forums
are about.

Not being a mountain biker, I hadn't heard that usage. Odd that the
MTB community seems to feel the need to reinvent terminology.