Questions about value of bicycles.

On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 4:31:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 6:47:56 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:

I hand miter tubes because it's much faster than the setup
time on a lathe. Much faster.

My frame plate is a massive chunk of steel but I built
frames before I made that and several famous builders ran
their whole careers with simple straightedge, level and
machinist's protractor:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NAGASA2X.JPG

If your facility is doing large numbers of frames in
batches, better tooling pays in time saved:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/bassoworks.jpg

For one-offs such as custom builds or repairs it's not clear
to me at all.
Exactly. There is serious cost in building a massive frame fixture. You need to produce and sell
a large number of frames to amortize that cost. For a very low production volume it's not worth
doing and absolutely not necessary.

I've known several people who have built steel frames, At least two of those guys were
mechanical engineers, including a good friend of mine whom I consider to be the smartest
engineer I ever worked with. (We were in grad school together, and later I hired him to teach in
our program.) He did workshops on frame building at LAW conventions, back when they had
LAW conventions.

That guy built absolutely beautiful (concours d'elegance winning) single frames, plus several
tandems. Others built recumbents from instructions or, in one case, from the builder's own design. None of them used massive frame plates.

Tom's made it very clear that in addition to being a bumbling mechanic, he has little
understanding of the economics of manufacturing,

I remember seeing Sacha White's first frames and thinking they were beautiful, but he was just some kid with a torch and a file. http://thevanillaworkshop.squarespace.com/vanilla-road You never really know what's under the paint -- or whether the joints are filled and not over-heated. I've seen beautiful bikes fall apart -- and bikes that were not so beautiful after you stripped off the paint (e.g. dynafile dings filled with brass in '70s Ritchey frames). As it turned out, Sacha knew what he was doing. I think the wait list is five years for a Vanilla.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 4/15/2021 7:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 4:31:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 6:47:56 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:

I hand miter tubes because it's much faster than the setup
time on a lathe. Much faster.

My frame plate is a massive chunk of steel but I built
frames before I made that and several famous builders ran
their whole careers with simple straightedge, level and
machinist's protractor:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NAGASA2X.JPG

If your facility is doing large numbers of frames in
batches, better tooling pays in time saved:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/bassoworks.jpg

For one-offs such as custom builds or repairs it's not clear
to me at all.
Exactly. There is serious cost in building a massive frame fixture. You need to produce and sell
a large number of frames to amortize that cost. For a very low production volume it's not worth
doing and absolutely not necessary.

I've known several people who have built steel frames, At least two of those guys were
mechanical engineers, including a good friend of mine whom I consider to be the smartest
engineer I ever worked with. (We were in grad school together, and later I hired him to teach in
our program.) He did workshops on frame building at LAW conventions, back when they had
LAW conventions.

That guy built absolutely beautiful (concours d'elegance winning) single frames, plus several
tandems. Others built recumbents from instructions or, in one case, from the builder's own design. None of them used massive frame plates.

Tom's made it very clear that in addition to being a bumbling mechanic, he has little
understanding of the economics of manufacturing,

I remember seeing Sacha White's first frames and thinking they were beautiful, but he was just some kid with a torch and a file. http://thevanillaworkshop.squarespace.com/vanilla-road You never really know what's under the paint -- or whether the joints are filled and not over-heated. I've seen beautiful bikes fall apart -- and bikes that were not so beautiful after you stripped off the paint (e.g. dynafile dings filled with brass in '70s Ritchey frames). As it turned out, Sacha knew what he was doing. I think the wait list is five years for a Vanilla.

-- Jay Beattie.

Roger that.

Ritchey-built Ritcheys are sometimes rough under the paint
but with astoundingly low failure rates, especially given
punishment by Ritchey customers. Pretty fillet joints are
nice but beauty is in his design, consistency0 and
structural technique. I rework a lot of failed frames,
including user errors, cataclysms and builder oopsies. I see
a lot of frames naked. Can't give enough praise for Tom
Ritchey's work.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/15/2021 8:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 4:31:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
There is serious cost in building a massive frame fixture. You need to produce and sell
a large number of frames to amortize that cost. For a very low production volume it's not worth
doing and absolutely not necessary.

I've known several people who have built steel frames, At least two of those guys were
mechanical engineers, including a good friend of mine whom I consider to be the smartest
engineer I ever worked with. (We were in grad school together, and later I hired him to teach in
our program.) He did workshops on frame building at LAW conventions, back when they had
LAW conventions.

That guy built absolutely beautiful (concours d'elegance winning) single frames, plus several
tandems. Others built recumbents from instructions or, in one case, from the builder's own design. None of them used massive frame plates.

Tom's made it very clear that in addition to being a bumbling mechanic, he has little
understanding of the economics of manufacturing,

... You never really know what's under the paint -- or whether the joints are filled and not over-heated. I've seen beautiful bikes fall apart -- and bikes that were not so beautiful after you stripped off the paint (e.g. dynafile dings filled with brass in '70s Ritchey frames).

That brings up an interesting point: We can assess the beauty of a frame
according to our individual taste. But how do you know any particular
frame is really good? What matters in that evaluation?

If I stripped the paint off a well-used frame and saw a ding filled with
brass, I don't think it would bother me, assuming it hadn't caused a
failure. OTOH, overheating tubes can lead to failure - but how does one
tell before the failure occurs?

I'm the guy whose custom tandem had its fork blades suddenly break off.
The builder, Jim Bradford, substituted track gage fork blades in place
of tandem gage blades. I never bothered to weigh the fork, let alone
X-ray it, so that defect was hidden from me.

The blades broke maybe half an inch below the fork crown. I can't say if
that was evidence of overheating as well. Given that the wall thickness
was 1/3 what it should have been, any overheating was probably just
icing on the cake.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/15/2021 7:49 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/15/2021 8:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 4:31:19 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
There is serious cost in building a massive frame
fixture. You need to produce and sell
a large number of frames to amortize that cost. For a
very low production volume it's not worth
doing and absolutely not necessary.

I've known several people who have built steel frames, At
least two of those guys were
mechanical engineers, including a good friend of mine
whom I consider to be the smartest
engineer I ever worked with. (We were in grad school
together, and later I hired him to teach in
our program.) He did workshops on frame building at LAW
conventions, back when they had
LAW conventions.

That guy built absolutely beautiful (concours d'elegance
winning) single frames, plus several
tandems. Others built recumbents from instructions or, in
one case, from the builder's own design. None of them
used massive frame plates.

Tom's made it very clear that in addition to being a
bumbling mechanic, he has little
understanding of the economics of manufacturing,

... You never really know what's under the paint -- or
whether the joints are filled and not over-heated. I've
seen beautiful bikes fall apart -- and bikes that were not
so beautiful after you stripped off the paint (e.g.
dynafile dings filled with brass in '70s Ritchey frames).

That brings up an interesting point: We can assess the
beauty of a frame according to our individual taste. But how
do you know any particular frame is really good? What
matters in that evaluation?

If I stripped the paint off a well-used frame and saw a ding
filled with brass, I don't think it would bother me,
assuming it hadn't caused a failure. OTOH, overheating tubes
can lead to failure - but how does one tell before the
failure occurs?

I'm the guy whose custom tandem had its fork blades suddenly
break off. The builder, Jim Bradford, substituted track gage
fork blades in place of tandem gage blades. I never bothered
to weigh the fork, let alone X-ray it, so that defect was
hidden from me.

The blades broke maybe half an inch below the fork crown. I
can't say if that was evidence of overheating as well. Given
that the wall thickness was 1/3 what it should have been,
any overheating was probably just icing on the cake.


I don't know either.

Sprint track blades were the same beefy 1.2mm gauge as
tandem blades then. On a tandem though, round blades are
not ideal as the blade flex is against a smaller section
(22mm? 24mm?) than a 29mm classic oval blade. Riders here
are already familiar with normal fork flex and tandems have
a lot more of that.

Pursuit blades at 0.8mm (or even 0.9) would not be a very
good choice at all in vintage material for a road tandem.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 8:49:31 p.m. UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/15/2021 8:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 4:31:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
There is serious cost in building a massive frame fixture. You need to produce and sell
a large number of frames to amortize that cost. For a very low production volume it's not worth
doing and absolutely not necessary.

I've known several people who have built steel frames, At least two of those guys were
mechanical engineers, including a good friend of mine whom I consider to be the smartest
engineer I ever worked with. (We were in grad school together, and later I hired him to teach in
our program.) He did workshops on frame building at LAW conventions, back when they had
LAW conventions.

That guy built absolutely beautiful (concours d'elegance winning) single frames, plus several
tandems. Others built recumbents from instructions or, in one case, from the builder's own design. None of them used massive frame plates.

Tom's made it very clear that in addition to being a bumbling mechanic, he has little
understanding of the economics of manufacturing,

... You never really know what's under the paint -- or whether the joints are filled and not over-heated. I've seen beautiful bikes fall apart -- and bikes that were not so beautiful after you stripped off the paint (e.g. dynafile dings filled with brass in '70s Ritchey frames).

That brings up an interesting point: We can assess the beauty of a frame
according to our individual taste. But how do you know any particular
frame is really good? What matters in that evaluation?

If I stripped the paint off a well-used frame and saw a ding filled with
brass, I don't think it would bother me, assuming it hadn't caused a
failure. OTOH, overheating tubes can lead to failure - but how does one
tell before the failure occurs?

I'm the guy whose custom tandem had its fork blades suddenly break off.
The builder, Jim Bradford, substituted track gage fork blades in place
of tandem gage blades. I never bothered to weigh the fork, let alone
X-ray it, so that defect was hidden from me.

The blades broke maybe half an inch below the fork crown. I can't say if
that was evidence of overheating as well. Given that the wall thickness
was 1/3 what it should have been, any overheating was probably just
icing on the cake.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Did you sue the builder?

Cheers

On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 08:36:35 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 7:12:05 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 08:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 7:55:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:15:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 4:07:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:07:14 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 6:56:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:45:40 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 9:50:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/12/2021 8:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

snip
I sold a couple of bikes just before Covid19 and I discovered that it is hard to sell a bike via the Dutch craiglist for a reasonable price if it doesn't have disc brakes, if not CF and for a ATB also is not 29". I think your bike would go for around 1500-200- euro over here. I tried to sell this bike:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1dSJW6DxfgCTYJxXA
In the U.S., nearly everyone buying a new higher-end road bike wants
disc brakes whether it makes sense or not.

Electronic shifting is not necessarily seen as a plus by many buyers
because of the hassle of battery charging, and the extra complexity that
it adds.

Same in the U.S. regarding ATBs, a 26" wheeled ATB has almost no value,
though 27.5" sells well for shorter riders.

Tom needs to find all this out for himself, everyone here explaining
reality to him will have no effect. It's not uncommon for people to have
unrealistic ideas about what their used stuff is worth.
I will ask you again Scharf - what do you know about bicycles. Over and over again, on this group you are completely unable to make a single technically correct comment on bicycles.
And you have problems installing a Bottom Bracket and haven't yet
solved the problems with the head bearings... So, what do you know
about bicycles?

John, carefully explain to everyone here what you know about high end bicycles and how you learned it? The bottom bracket tool for installing the BB did not get shipped with it and a Park Tool substitute cost more than simply taking it to the shop. What makes you think that the headset once received didn't get easily installed? Please tell me how you now choose a correct headset with about two dozen standards?
Tell us Tom what is the mechanical difference between a high end and a
low end bicycle? Disregarding the wheels they both have two moving
parts and you had/have problems assembling both of them?
--
Cheers,

John B.
If that's what you think we need no longer include you in any conversation regarding modern technology.
What modern "technology" are we talking about here? The bottom
bracket? Two bearings and a shaft through the bearings? Or the
incredibly complex head bearings? You know, the gizmo that has two
bearings with the tube sticking through them?

As an aside, Tom's "modern technology has been used on bicycles for at
least a hundred and thirty years :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...0s_a nd_1890s
--
Cheers,

John B.
Yes John, you have shown over and over just how much you know about anything with two wheels on it.
Well Tommy I built a bike from the raw tubes and lugs and remarkably I
had no problems whatsoever installing the bottom bracket and the head
bearings. And I don't have 200 pounds of tools to cart around either.

Tell everyone here what an acetylene torch weighs with the bottles.

See Tommy, yet again you demonstrate that you don't know what you are
talking about. In the trade a "torch" is just that, the thing that the
fire comes out of. A "torch" doesn't have any bottles.

Now then, if you want to talk about a complete acetylene set up you
have to call it that. Or maybe in the vernacular a 'cetlene rig".
and if you want to know how heavy the "rig" is then you need to
specify what size gas and oxygen tanks you are using. See, they comes
in different sizes.

But, who cares how heavy it is, anyone that does that sort of work
either has a wheeled "cart" to move the tanks around or has a "welding
bench" with the bottles chained to the bench. See Tommy is super bad
luck to tip over a bottle and have it fall over and break the valve
off..

Oh yes, I forgot. In some places they may still use an acetylene
generator a sort of tank thing that you put calcium carbide and water
in and if it is working right it generates acetylene... if it is not
working right it likely blows up :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 13:31:17 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 9:36:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/15/2021 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 7:12:05 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 08:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 7:55:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:15:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 4:07:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:07:14 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 6:56:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:45:40 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 9:50:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/12/2021 8:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

snip
I sold a couple of bikes just before Covid19 and I discovered that it is hard to sell a bike via the Dutch craiglist for a reasonable price if it doesn't have disc brakes, if not CF and for a ATB also is not 29". I think your bike would go for around 1500-200- euro over here. I tried to sell this bike:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1dSJW6DxfgCTYJxXA
In the U.S., nearly everyone buying a new higher-end road bike wants
disc brakes whether it makes sense or not.

Electronic shifting is not necessarily seen as a plus by many buyers
because of the hassle of battery charging, and the extra complexity that
it adds.

Same in the U.S. regarding ATBs, a 26" wheeled ATB has almost no value,
though 27.5" sells well for shorter riders.

Tom needs to find all this out for himself, everyone here explaining
reality to him will have no effect. It's not uncommon for people to have
unrealistic ideas about what their used stuff is worth.
I will ask you again Scharf - what do you know about bicycles. Over and over again, on this group you are completely unable to make a single technically correct comment on bicycles.
And you have problems installing a Bottom Bracket and haven't yet
solved the problems with the head bearings... So, what do you know
about bicycles?

John, carefully explain to everyone here what you know about high end bicycles and how you learned it? The bottom bracket tool for installing the BB did not get shipped with it and a Park Tool substitute cost more than simply taking it to the shop. What makes you think that the headset once received didn't get easily installed? Please tell me how you now choose a correct headset with about two dozen standards?
Tell us Tom what is the mechanical difference between a high end and a
low end bicycle? Disregarding the wheels they both have two moving
parts and you had/have problems assembling both of them?
--
Cheers,

John B.
If that's what you think we need no longer include you in any conversation regarding modern technology.
What modern "technology" are we talking about here? The bottom
bracket? Two bearings and a shaft through the bearings? Or the
incredibly complex head bearings? You know, the gizmo that has two
bearings with the tube sticking through them?

As an aside, Tom's "modern technology has been used on bicycles for at
least a hundred and thirty years :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...0s_a nd_1890s
--
Cheers,

John B.
Yes John, you have shown over and over just how much you know about anything with two wheels on it.
Well Tommy I built a bike from the raw tubes and lugs and remarkably I
had no problems whatsoever installing the bottom bracket and the head
bearings. And I don't have 200 pounds of tools to cart around either.

Tell everyone here what an acetylene torch weighs with the bottles.

There are a lot of cylinder sizes, including mini 'wearable'
setups (those are not shown in this link).

https://weldersequipmentinc.com/uplo...237239.jpg?706
China Freight -- and not the low-cost option, either. https://www.harborfreight.com/portab...&cid=go_social About 20 years ago, they were selling something similar at Costco -- along with some cheap Lincoln stick welders.

Jay, please don't hand out that kind of crap when I actually built motorcycle dragsters and know what is required. To properly fit the tubes you need a milling machine though you could do a half ass job with a very well built drill press. You can't just stick the tubes into the lugs and silver solder them so you need a HEAVY jig to put everything and KEEP everything in alignment during the soldering or brazing. John is lying through his teeth because that is all he ever does, Crew chiefs are crew chiefs because they can't do anything themselves.

You may have built motorcycle dragsters (although I doubt it) but you
certainly aren't a competent machinist. You can, or at least I can,
fit bicycle tubes using nothing but a hacksaw and a file although I
did, when I built that frame, use a vertical milling machine to rough
cut the tubes and finished them with a file.
As for heavy jigs... well have a look at this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWcWrjdB2Ao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMUq2ioes9Y

And yet again the remarkable Tommy displays his ignorance.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 16:31:17 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 6:47:56 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:

I hand miter tubes because it's much faster than the setup
time on a lathe. Much faster.

My frame plate is a massive chunk of steel but I built
frames before I made that and several famous builders ran
their whole careers with simple straightedge, level and
machinist's protractor:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/NAGASA2X.JPG

If your facility is doing large numbers of frames in
batches, better tooling pays in time saved:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/bassoworks.jpg

For one-offs such as custom builds or repairs it's not clear
to me at all.

Exactly. There is serious cost in building a massive frame fixture. You need to produce and sell
a large number of frames to amortize that cost. For a very low production volume it's not worth
doing and absolutely not necessary.

I've known several people who have built steel frames, At least two of those guys were
mechanical engineers, including a good friend of mine whom I consider to be the smartest
engineer I ever worked with. (We were in grad school together, and later I hired him to teach in
our program.) He did workshops on frame building at LAW conventions, back when they had
LAW conventions.

That guy built absolutely beautiful (concours d'elegance winning) single frames, plus several
tandems. Others built recumbents from instructions or, in one case, from the builder's own design. None of them used massive frame plates.

Tom's made it very clear that in addition to being a bumbling mechanic, he has little
understanding of the economics of manufacturing,

- Frank Krygowski

Way back when, A lieutenant came in the welding shop to see could he
get someone to weld a home built airplane frame that he was building.
Back in those days most A.F. fabrication shops were willing to do
"home projects" for people with, of course a reasonable measure of
remuneration. Anyway, we told the lieutenant "sure we can weld it" but
we don't know how to keep the whole frame straight" and he tells us
that he's got a,jig so we tell him "bring it in". So, after duty hours
the lieutenant comes back with a pickup and off loads the frame parts
and the "jig", a sheet of 1" plywood with little blocks nailed to it
to hold the tubes in place and 4 inch holes bored at each joint so it
could be welded without catching the "jig" on fire.

We did the port and starboard sides and a while later he comes back to
have the two sides welded together and he's got another slab of
plywood but this one's got 2 x 4 uprights nailed to it to hold the
sides vertical while the cross pieces are welded in top and bottom.

So much for big heavy jigs :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 20:49:26 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/15/2021 8:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 4:31:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
There is serious cost in building a massive frame fixture. You need to produce and sell
a large number of frames to amortize that cost. For a very low production volume it's not worth
doing and absolutely not necessary.

I've known several people who have built steel frames, At least two of those guys were
mechanical engineers, including a good friend of mine whom I consider to be the smartest
engineer I ever worked with. (We were in grad school together, and later I hired him to teach in
our program.) He did workshops on frame building at LAW conventions, back when they had
LAW conventions.

That guy built absolutely beautiful (concours d'elegance winning) single frames, plus several
tandems. Others built recumbents from instructions or, in one case, from the builder's own design. None of them used massive frame plates.

Tom's made it very clear that in addition to being a bumbling mechanic, he has little
understanding of the economics of manufacturing,

... You never really know what's under the paint -- or whether the joints are filled and not over-heated. I've seen beautiful bikes fall apart -- and bikes that were not so beautiful after you stripped off the paint (e.g. dynafile dings filled with brass in '70s Ritchey frames).

That brings up an interesting point: We can assess the beauty of a frame
according to our individual taste. But how do you know any particular
frame is really good? What matters in that evaluation?

If I stripped the paint off a well-used frame and saw a ding filled with
brass, I don't think it would bother me, assuming it hadn't caused a
failure. OTOH, overheating tubes can lead to failure - but how does one
tell before the failure occurs?

Without some pretty fancy testing apparatus I would say that if a
frame is painted , or even prepared for painting that you wouldn't be
able to tell if a frame joint was "overheated" or not. Yes steel does
change color with various levels of temperature but that is just a
surface oxidation it would normally be blasted off or sanded off
before painting. You could test for hardness but I'm not sure what
process you could use on a closed and very thin tube :-)


I'm the guy whose custom tandem had its fork blades suddenly break off.
The builder, Jim Bradford, substituted track gage fork blades in place
of tandem gage blades. I never bothered to weigh the fork, let alone
X-ray it, so that defect was hidden from me.

The blades broke maybe half an inch below the fork crown. I can't say if
that was evidence of overheating as well. Given that the wall thickness
was 1/3 what it should have been, any overheating was probably just
icing on the cake.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 15:24:42 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 2:27:16 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 1:31:19 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 15, 2021 at 9:36:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/15/2021 10:36 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 7:12:05 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 08:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 7:55:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:15:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 13, 2021 at 4:07:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:07:14 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 6:56:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:45:40 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 12, 2021 at 9:50:26 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/12/2021 8:56 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

snip
I sold a couple of bikes just before Covid19 and I discovered that it is hard to sell a bike via the Dutch craiglist for a reasonable price if it doesn't have disc brakes, if not CF and for a ATB also is not 29". I think your bike would go for around 1500-200- euro over here. I tried to sell this bike:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/1dSJW6DxfgCTYJxXA
In the U.S., nearly everyone buying a new higher-end road bike wants
disc brakes whether it makes sense or not.

Electronic shifting is not necessarily seen as a plus by many buyers
because of the hassle of battery charging, and the extra complexity that
it adds.

Same in the U.S. regarding ATBs, a 26" wheeled ATB has almost no value,
though 27.5" sells well for shorter riders.

Tom needs to find all this out for himself, everyone here explaining
reality to him will have no effect. It's not uncommon for people to have
unrealistic ideas about what their used stuff is worth.
I will ask you again Scharf - what do you know about bicycles. Over and over again, on this group you are completely unable to make a single technically correct comment on bicycles.
And you have problems installing a Bottom Bracket and haven't yet
solved the problems with the head bearings... So, what do you know
about bicycles?

John, carefully explain to everyone here what you know about high end bicycles and how you learned it? The bottom bracket tool for installing the BB did not get shipped with it and a Park Tool substitute cost more than simply taking it to the shop. What makes you think that the headset once received didn't get easily installed? Please tell me how you now choose a correct headset with about two dozen standards?
Tell us Tom what is the mechanical difference between a high end and a
low end bicycle? Disregarding the wheels they both have two moving
parts and you had/have problems assembling both of them?
--
Cheers,

John B.
If that's what you think we need no longer include you in any conversation regarding modern technology.
What modern "technology" are we talking about here? The bottom
bracket? Two bearings and a shaft through the bearings? Or the
incredibly complex head bearings? You know, the gizmo that has two
bearings with the tube sticking through them?

As an aside, Tom's "modern technology has been used on bicycles for at
least a hundred and thirty years :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...0s_a nd_1890s
--
Cheers,

John B.
Yes John, you have shown over and over just how much you know about anything with two wheels on it.
Well Tommy I built a bike from the raw tubes and lugs and remarkably I
had no problems whatsoever installing the bottom bracket and the head
bearings. And I don't have 200 pounds of tools to cart around either.

Tell everyone here what an acetylene torch weighs with the bottles.

There are a lot of cylinder sizes, including mini 'wearable'
setups (those are not shown in this link).

https://weldersequipmentinc.com/uplo...237239.jpg?706
China Freight -- and not the low-cost option, either. https://www.harborfreight.com/portab...&cid=go_social About 20 years ago, they were selling something similar at Costco -- along with some cheap Lincoln stick welders.
Jay, please don't hand out that kind of crap when I actually built motorcycle dragsters and know what is required. To properly fit the tubes you need a milling machine though you could do a half ass job with a very well built drill press. You can't just stick the tubes into the lugs and silver solder them so you need a HEAVY jig to put everything and KEEP everything in alignment during the soldering or brazing. John is lying through his teeth because that is all he ever does, Crew chiefs are crew chiefs because they can't do anything themselves.
How many times do we have to go through this? Do you even remember the last time we had this discussion? To refresh your memory, Proteus -- even Bike Warehouse -- sold frame building kits for home builders. Were you asleep during the 70s-80s? Muzi regaled us with stories of hand-building with no lathe. Here, read the Proteus book: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/re...oteus-bicycles Go to page 17 "Mitering the Tubes." No HEAVY jigs, no lathes.

I worked with a frame builder who didn't use a lathe, although he had templates that were made on a lathe (and got a lathe some years later). I cut and mitered the tubes on my last steel racing frame with a hacksaw, file and a template that was close, but the tube still had to be hand-filed to get the angle just right. It was brazed together on a brazing stand with no HEAVY jigs and checked routinely on a surface plate. It was dead-on accurate.

Tons of people home-built their bikes in the 70s and early 80s. John was a welder and I see no reason why he couldn't braze a steel frame. It's not rocket science. In fact, brazing is a snooze job for a good welder.

-- Jay Beattie.
If you worked with a "frame builder" that didn't use a mill or a heavy jig what were you doing? Defending him in lawsuits for endangering every person that bought a frame from him? Quit trying to bull**** your way out of this. What gave you the idea that John could braze or that he was a welder? That's the same kind of crap that John has been handing out since he got here. He claims to have been a crew chief understand? All he did was take the flight maintenance writeups from the crew and call the people that COULD do things. If he worked at a job outside of his retirement from the service it was probably paperwork because they needed someone that could speak English. I'm not trying to knock John other than he is bull****ting everything he comments on. I was in the Air Force remember? I know what crew chiefs were.

Ah well, I have said that I was a certified aircraft welder, haven't
I? Perhaps you don't know that a "certified welder" is?

As for being a "crew chief" how in the world would you know what a
"crew chief" did. You enlisted in, what? About 1962? That is ten years
after I joined and certainly 7 years after I was a crew chief? Do you
have any idea what aircraft maintenance was like before the A.F. went
to the "specialized Maintenance" system? Do you even know that there
was a system before the Air Force copied the so called "specialized
Maintenance" system from the commercial airlines?

But of course you are an expert in the Air force, after all you have
stated that you served in at least two A.F. units that never existed.
--
Cheers,

John B.