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#101
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I am that out of date
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/24/2021 10:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care. Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them. I've never used clipless, but long ago I sometimes used classic cleats with toe clips and straps for time trials. I can't say they made a noticeable difference compared to flat touring shoes with clips and straps. And when our kid was riding a lot with us, she changed to clipless. There was no notable change in her power. I know a lot of people claim their power output increased tremendously with foot retention schemes. But I think it's impossible to avoid a placebo effect with something so obvious. Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in, plus shoes with soft tacky tread. In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy. I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously steep climbs etc. I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my experience. Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove. I've seen studies measuring pedal force during crank rotation. I've never seen one confirm an upward force on the rear pedal. If it happens, it must be very rare or temporary, like perhaps pulling hard from a standing stop. It’s an advantage that is often claimed. But not seen it proved. Though trails type skills where you can pull the rear wheel up etc, is easier than flats. Roger Merriman. |
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#102
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I am that out of date
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 9:25:17 PM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
wrote: On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 9:22:00 PM UTC-5, Joy Beeson wrote: On Thu, 22 Apr 2021 14:33:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: I remember the arguments of yore in this forum, about who could be called a "real cyclist." IIRC, many posters thought the "real cyclists" were the ones who used the posters' equipment choice. And I say that you aren't a serious cyclist if you can't carry two gallons of milk, or at least an attaché case. -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/ Two gallons of milk? Now disregarding the idea that I would ever ever ever buy two gallons of milk at once, I don't need to have a full spare gallon when I am using the first half of the first gallon. Carrying two gallons is hard. One gallon is easy. I can easily ride one handed and carry the gallon milk in the other. But trying to carry two gallons at once? I can and do occasionally ride no handed. But that is only once I get up to speed. I never start no handed riding from a stand still. And carrying two gallons in one hand, that might be really hard. About 17 pounds of weight and grabbing both of the handles in a gallon jug at once. I'm going to stick with riding with one gallon milk at a time. Carrying an attache case and a gallon of milk both in the same hand would be hard too. With the right hardware, 2 gallons of milk is a breeze. I’ve done tours where the bike plus four loaded panniers weighed 75 pounds. Wouldn't the idea be to get 5 gallons of milk fresh from the farmer so that you could make a wheel of cheese? |
#103
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I am that out of date
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:59:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 4/22/2021 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote: I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used. Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club mileage (11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his individual rides) just got a new pair of shoes for riding. They're ordinary New Balance sneakers. He rides using toe clips. There are also the occasional barefoot marathon runner and US football kicker. They are outliers. One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care.. Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them. Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in, plus shoes with soft tacky tread. In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy. I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously steep climbs etc. I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my experience. Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove. Roger Merriman Yesterday, when the pedal stripped out of the crank, I pedaled a mile with on leg. Try that with flat pedals. |
#104
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I am that out of date
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:52:12 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/24/2021 9:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 24 Apr 2021 15:31:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/24/2021 2:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: The bicycling industry is far from immune to chronic overdoses of creativity. We have "concept designs" which are futuristic bicycles that are often barely rideable, difficult to manufacture, impossible to ship, and usually end up costing too much. Never mind repairability as they typically are not ridden long enough to need... So, why bother with concept bicycles? While none of the concept designs are ready to sell and ride, they all have ideas that can be borrowed and grafted onto mainstream bicycles. New ideas also need to be tested. I suspect people bother with "bold, innovative concept" bicycles because they just got out of some Industrial Design degree program and want to show they can think "out of the box" better than the next guy with an Industrial Design degree. I doubt more than 1% of those designs or their features are ever seriously considered for production. It's probably much less than 1%. It's like email spam. The rate of successful sales is probably 1 in 100,000 spam messages. But, when the cost of sending 100,000 spam messages is nearly zero, that one sale makes the effort worthwhile. Over the years, I've learned that innovation comes in two flavors. One is intentional innovation, also known as development. One starts with a problem and a collection of known limitations. One then pounds on the problems with all the tools available to engineers, in a manner similar to from existing designs, and eventually produce a tiny incremental product improvement. The other flavor comes from out of self field, doesn't solve any known problems and creates a new market. Often, the first attempt is a hopeless disaster, obviously incapable of doing anything useful, and denounced by all the experts as impractical, useless, unsellable, etc. However, if the those in charge of funding can recognize the promise and are willing to gamble that the experts are wrong, then the idea will eventually be developed, tested, certified safe, and sold to the public. Hint: If all the experts say something won't work, won't sell or won't be worth the time and money, take another look. That's usually an indication of a good idea: http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Premature-Judgement.txt I like the fact that nuclear fusion is (what was it?) 15 years away. And has been forever. And exactly the same could be said for climate change. I sincerely doubt fusion power ever. The one advantage it has is that if you crack the containment facility the reaction dies with no radioactive component leftover. But Thorium is the most common radioactive material on Earth and Thorium reactors can be built that make their own fission reaction material and there are many ways of keeping pressure, hence danger, to very low levels. |
#105
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I am that out of date
On 4/25/2021 6:58 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/24/2021 10:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care. Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them. I've never used clipless, but long ago I sometimes used classic cleats with toe clips and straps for time trials. I can't say they made a noticeable difference compared to flat touring shoes with clips and straps. And when our kid was riding a lot with us, she changed to clipless. There was no notable change in her power. I know a lot of people claim their power output increased tremendously with foot retention schemes. But I think it's impossible to avoid a placebo effect with something so obvious. Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in, plus shoes with soft tacky tread. In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy. I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously steep climbs etc. I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my experience. Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove. I've seen studies measuring pedal force during crank rotation. I've never seen one confirm an upward force on the rear pedal. If it happens, it must be very rare or temporary, like perhaps pulling hard from a standing stop. It’s an advantage that is often claimed. But not seen it proved. Though trails type skills where you can pull the rear wheel up etc, is easier than flats. I agree, foot retention helps bunny hopping. I do it using old style toe clips. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#106
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I am that out of date
On 4/25/2021 10:17 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:59:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 4/22/2021 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote: I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used. Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club mileage (11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his individual rides) just got a new pair of shoes for riding. They're ordinary New Balance sneakers. He rides using toe clips. There are also the occasional barefoot marathon runner and US football kicker. They are outliers. One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care. Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them. Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in, plus shoes with soft tacky tread. In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy. I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously steep climbs etc. I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my experience. Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove. Roger Merriman Yesterday, when the pedal stripped out of the crank, I pedaled a mile with on leg. Try that with flat pedals. Wow. How did the pedal strip out of the crank? -- - Frank Krygowski |
#107
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I am that out of date
On Sunday, April 25, 2021 at 7:52:41 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/25/2021 10:17 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:59:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 4/22/2021 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote: I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used. Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club mileage (11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his individual rides) just got a new pair of shoes for riding. They're ordinary New Balance sneakers. He rides using toe clips. There are also the occasional barefoot marathon runner and US football kicker. They are outliers. One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care. Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them. Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in, plus shoes with soft tacky tread. In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy. I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously steep climbs etc. I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my experience. Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove. Roger Merriman Yesterday, when the pedal stripped out of the crank, I pedaled a mile with on leg. Try that with flat pedals. Wow. How did the pedal strip out of the crank? I was just riding along and the pedal started rocking. I immediately turned around to see if I could make it back but 10 miles from home the pedal, threads and all simply pulled right out. Pedals, as you know, are "British threaded" so you only have to tighten them to "snug" so I tighten them in with an Allen Key to keep from overtightening them and pulling threads. I stopped using the large and heavy pedals wrench long ago except to pull a pedal off. But this is the first time I can remember a pedal stripping out of a crank. The only cause I can think of is that the thread diameter on the pedal was undersize and the top of the threads on the pedal were cut flat on top. |
#108
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I am that out of date
On 4/24/2021 2:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/24/2021 2:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: The bicycling industry is far from immune to chronic overdoses of creativity. We have "concept designs" which are futuristic bicycles that are often barely rideable, difficult to manufacture, impossible to ship, and usually end up costing too much. Never mind repairability as they typically are not ridden long enough to need... So, why bother with concept bicycles? While none of the concept designs are ready to sell and ride, they all have ideas that can be borrowed and grafted onto mainstream bicycles. New ideas also need to be tested. I suspect people bother with "bold, innovative concept" bicycles because they just got out of some Industrial Design degree program and want to show they can think "out of the box" better than the next guy with an Industrial Design degree. I doubt more than 1% of those designs or their features are ever seriously considered for production. Another thread nearby discusses exactly that in the context of clothing fashion. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#109
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I am that out of date
Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 7:46:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:59:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 4/22/2021 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/21/2021 10:33 PM, wrote: I somehow forgot about clipless pedals. They are a HUGE improvement. I started with Time Equipe road pedals back in the late 1980s, early 1990s. Same ones Lemond used. Interestingly, the guy who set our club's record for club mileage (11,000+ miles of club rides, not counting his individual rides) just got a new pair of shoes for riding. They're ordinary New Balance sneakers. He rides using toe clips. There are also the occasional barefoot marathon runner and US football kicker. They are outliers. One of our club riders mentioned that most falls on bicycles stems from people not getting their feet out of clips rapidly enough. So he reverted to flat pedals. Now he cannot keep up on any climbs. And people with training can get out of pedals just as fast as he can step off of a flat pedal since they are ready to clip out when the conditions warrant care. Can’t say I have found any performance difference at all, I used clipless for a few years on my first road bike, was fine, never struggled to clip in or out or had a clip less moment but I never loved them. Few years back bought a CX bike for hacking about the woods plus road and put some MTB flats on, and used my MTB flat shoes, ie pedals with pins in, plus shoes with soft tacky tread. In short with proper flats you can’t slide the shoe but have to lift to reposition, unlike the road flats which are frankly terrifying slippy. I’ve done 100+ miles on them, climbed up big mountains, tackled seriously steep climbs etc. I’ve seen opinions dressed as science with huge gains for clipless but proper stuff the gains is marginal, apparently. Which certainly echoes my experience. Interesting the pulling up, gain is very difficult to prove. Roger Merriman Yesterday, when the pedal stripped out of the crank, I pedaled a mile with on leg. Try that with flat pedals. Can’t say I’ve done that deliberately, but I can’t see it being a huge issue, unless your attempting to torque it away, ie sprint or whatever, MTB flats are grippy and Flat shoes are sticky so they do stick together, ie long way from road flats that are slippery things. Roger Merriman |
#110
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I am that out of date
On 4/25/2021 10:23 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 11:40:43 -0500, AMuzi wrote: Another thread nearby discusses exactly that in the context of clothing fashion. Clothing, bicycles, cars, image, etc. They're all part of the fashion culture and business. "Pay Enough for Anything and It Passes for Taste." — Sue Grafton Without this universal truth there would be no market for designer handbags, gaudy jewelry, or $6000 bicycles. |
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