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#11
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2/19/2018 3:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 11:24, Frank Krygowski wrote: It would be irresponsible to advise anyone to trust the mirrors on a big truck or bus, no matter how fancy they may appear. Check out these videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9E1_1M-qhU a. The cab is aready turned. Nobody in their right mind would cycle by a truck in that configuration. b. The lower mirror isn't adjusted correctly. Duh! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djzC4yeMOiU Well built trucks have small windows in the lower door section so drivers can see a cyclist next to the cab. I avoid that area even then. So what message will you give to cyclists? "If you think the truck mirrors are adjusted correctly and if you like the design of the windows, you should pass at speed on the curb side"?? That's nonsense. And regarding the turning: in the incident Andrew linked a week or so ago, the truck was turned _the other way_ before it turned right and killed the cyclist. Anyhow, I would never pass a truck on the right unless I have established an acknowledged visual contact with the driver. But the bike lane sends a different message, as interpreted by the cyclist in Andrew's link and many other cyclists. Again, this collision type was responsible for many of the cluster of cyclist deaths in London a couple years ago. A bike lane is _not_ a free ticket to a careless riding style. That cyclist was careless, plain and simple. There was a clearly visible turn signal yet he ignored it. You may say you know that. But it should be obvious even to you that many, many cyclists do NOT know that. The dominant messages need to change from "Now you have a safe place to ride" and "Always wear your helmet." Cyclists need to hear "Even a 'protected' bike lane won't protect you" and "Learn to anticipate and avoid these hazards..." with right hooks, left crosses and pull-outs being the most important, after road hazards. Those are among the top crash causes, far more than the hits-from-behind feared by bike lane advocates like yourself. Bike lanes do not help any of those crash mechanisms. If anything, they make them worse. Joerg, there absolutely are advocacy groups lobbying for bike lanes on _all_ streets, and wanting them to the far right for protection. They even lobby specifically for bike lanes in door zones. I know of two cities in Ohio that caved into those demands. Got links for those groups where they explicitly advocate that? I don't have links for the groups advocating that, but here's a link about one of the results. Read the article, then read the comments, especially the first. http://www.cleveland.com/lakewood/in...nes_to_ma.html Lakewood originally planned for sharrows on lots of the narrow streets with parking. "Bike advocates" fought that idea and overturned it, getting the city to instead put in bike lanes even though they were very frequently in door zones. IIRC, it's Lakewood that labeled some of its door zone bike lanes with "Door Zone" painted on the pavement. Their safety guide says only "use caution" there - as if even a 10 mph cyclist can stop before running into a door that popped open. http://blog.centurycycles.com/2017/0...ike-lanes.html -- - Frank Krygowski |
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#12
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 9:32:40 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html (I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.) -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Again a demonstration that the car always wins. Andy |
#13
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2/19/2018 11:53 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 11:42 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-19 08:21, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html (I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.) How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision! The turn signal of the car shown in the video should have. It is not wise to blow past a car when its turn signal clearly indicates that the driver intends to turn into your path. While it is still the fault of the car driver I do not understand how a cyclist could simply ignore that. Oh, and bright lights do help in such situations. When a car driver sees some really bright light in the rear view and outside mirror that does get their attention. Experienced it myself many times, when they slammed on the brake pedal. It depends. The most deadly right hooks occur with large trucks and buses. Those vehicles have huge blind spots, not "may not notice" spots. If your light can't be seen (which is very typical in such situations) it can't help. In the U.S. it would have been mirror image, so a right hook. Over there, it's a left hook. Either way, it's a common collision. And this illustrates the weirdness of the bike lane concept. Baloney. So let me ask again:                                                    ... Under what circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring lane be placed between the curb and a lane where turns are permitted? And when would a motorist think it's safe to "undertake" like that when a vehicle has its turn signal blinking? In other words, who would design an equivalent lane stripe for a motor vehicle? Not even the most incompetent highway designer. Yet American bike advocates lobby for such nonsense until the politicians cave in. I have witnessed a few such accidents. _All_ of them sans bike lane. And doubtlessly, almost all of them edge riders. Most of them were of the kind "Oh, dang! I have to turn right here". I had a close call myself while taking the lane. A Porsche driver thought it was a good idea to speed past me on the lane left of me and then turn right into a parking lot. Luckily I was on the MTB with powerful disc brakes. Maybe the guy didn't think a MTB could be doing north of 20mph. I can recall only two sort-of-close-call attempted right hooks while I was taking the lane. In both cases they started to pass me on my left then realized they couldn't make it as I held my position and glared at them. They both dropped back. One was within a couple blocks of my office at the university. The perpetrator was a young kid trying to cross my path into the right turn lane. (I was in the right "straight ahead" lane.) He was even more confused than the guy described above, because he tried to pass, then dropped back, then tried to pass again, then almost stopped before merging right properly from behind me. We ended up side by side at the light. I looked over at him and said "You're new at this, aren't you?" He just glared straight ahead until the light changed. In the modern world, that ends with a headline, "shots fired in road rage incident" https://www.channel3000.com/news/del...-say/703673624 -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#14
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2/19/2018 3:34 PM, Andy wrote:
On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 9:32:40 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html (I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.) -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Again a demonstration that the car always wins. Always? My employee blew a red light at high speed, fixed gear, and smashed into the side of a car with his shoulder. He & bike were fine but he was ticketed and had to pay the car owner's body work bills. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#15
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2018-02-19 13:42, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/19/2018 3:34 PM, Andy wrote: On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 9:32:40 AM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html (I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.) -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Again a demonstration that the car always wins. Always? My employee blew a red light at high speed, fixed gear, and smashed into the side of a car with his shoulder. He & bike were fine but he was ticketed and had to pay the car owner's body work bills. In the 80's a guy in a Volkswagen Polo (was called Fox in the US) pulled through a stop sign, me on the bike at full bore. Couldn't stop, dropped myself a bit behind the handlebar in an attempt not to sail over the roof ... BAM. My bike was pretzeled and I was bruised but no broken bones. The guy tried to get out but the driver side door into which I had smashed but it could no longer be opened from inside. He was elderly and couldn't climb over the stick. So I pulled hard and then it opened with a crunching sound. I couldn't bring myself to make him pay for the old 2nd hand road bike. He was over 70, had just bought this VW as the first brand-new car in his life and now the left side was smashed in. He was close to crying. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#16
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2018-02-19 13:14, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 3:12 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-19 11:24, Frank Krygowski wrote: It would be irresponsible to advise anyone to trust the mirrors on a big truck or bus, no matter how fancy they may appear. Check out these videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9E1_1M-qhU a. The cab is aready turned. Nobody in their right mind would cycle by a truck in that configuration. b. The lower mirror isn't adjusted correctly. Duh! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djzC4yeMOiU Well built trucks have small windows in the lower door section so drivers can see a cyclist next to the cab. I avoid that area even then. So what message will you give to cyclists? "If you think the truck mirrors are adjusted correctly and if you like the design of the windows, you should pass at speed on the curb side"?? That's nonsense. Can you please read more carefully? That is not what I said. Read the thread again, I am not going to repeat it over and over again. And regarding the turning: in the incident Andrew linked a week or so ago, the truck was turned _the other way_ before it turned right and killed the cyclist. That would be a serious truck driver mistake. Those things shouldn't happen but do, just like people blowing a red light. I had that a while ago while on the bicycle. Luckily I always look left and right even if I had green for a while. Might have saved my life. Anyhow, I would never pass a truck on the right unless I have established an acknowledged visual contact with the driver. But the bike lane sends a different message, as interpreted by the cyclist in Andrew's link and many other cyclists. Again, this collision type was responsible for many of the cluster of cyclist deaths in London a couple years ago. A bike lane is _not_ a free ticket to a careless riding style. That cyclist was careless, plain and simple. There was a clearly visible turn signal yet he ignored it. You may say you know that. But it should be obvious even to you that many, many cyclists do NOT know that. Then they have no place on a bicycle in traffic. ... The dominant messages need to change from "Now you have a safe place to ride" and "Always wear your helmet." Cyclists need to hear "Even a 'protected' bike lane won't protect you" and "Learn to anticipate and avoid these hazards..." with right hooks, left crosses and pull-outs being the most important, after road hazards. Those are among the top crash causes, far more than the hits-from-behind feared by bike lane advocates like yourself. Bike lanes do not help any of those crash mechanisms. If anything, they make them worse. Bike lanes do not make all mechanisms better but they do make a major one a lot better: Give the cyclist space during normal straight-ahead riding. Very few motorists venture into the bike lane while passing. Wehn in the lane regardless of lane position that is a very different story. So a road with bike lanes is better than one without. Segregated bike paths are way better than any of that but we can't always have them. Joerg, there absolutely are advocacy groups lobbying for bike lanes on _all_ streets, and wanting them to the far right for protection. They even lobby specifically for bike lanes in door zones. I know of two cities in Ohio that caved into those demands. Got links for those groups where they explicitly advocate that? I don't have links for the groups advocating that, ... Thought so :-) ... but here's a link about one of the results. Read the article, then read the comments, especially the first. http://www.cleveland.com/lakewood/in...nes_to_ma.html Just says "Workers are painting bike lanes along the 2.4-mile stretch of Madison Avenue in Lakewood. Bike lanes were added as part of a resurfacing project". No picture. Lakewood originally planned for sharrows on lots of the narrow streets with parking. "Bike advocates" fought that idea and overturned it, getting the city to instead put in bike lanes even though they were very frequently in door zones. IIRC, it's Lakewood that labeled some of its door zone bike lanes with "Door Zone" painted on the pavement. Their safety guide says only "use caution" there - as if even a 10 mph cyclist can stop before running into a door that popped open. http://blog.centurycycles.com/2017/0...ike-lanes.html Not a smart bike lane design. They could learn from cities such as Folsom. That is not to say that all bike facilities there are perfect but most are well designed. Sometimes they go over the top like he http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Bikelane1.JPG Yes, that is my two-meter foldable ruler on the pavement. What I found to work well in situations like the right sketch in your 2nd link is to move closer to the left limit of the bike lane. That signals car drivers that I am planning to go straight ahead. Usually only rowdies ignore that and cut me off, on purpose. They do that regardless of whether there is a bike lane of not. The others try to gauge my speed and then either pass and turn or line up behind me. If someone messes up and apologizes, no big deal. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#17
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2/19/2018 5:36 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-19 13:14, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/19/2018 3:12 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-19 11:24, Frank Krygowski wrote: It would be irresponsible to advise anyone to trust the mirrors on a big truck or bus, no matter how fancy they may appear. Check out these videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9E1_1M-qhU a. The cab is aready turned. Nobody in their right mind would cycle by a truck in that configuration. b. The lower mirror isn't adjusted correctly. Duh! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djzC4yeMOiU Well built trucks have small windows in the lower door section so drivers can see a cyclist next to the cab. I avoid that area even then. So what message will you give to cyclists? "If you think the truck mirrors are adjusted correctly and if you like the design of the windows, you should pass at speed on the curb side"?? That's nonsense. Can you please read more carefully? That is not what I said. Read the thread again, I am not going to repeat it over and over again. And regarding the turning: in the incident Andrew linked a week or so ago, the truck was turned _the other way_ before it turned right and killed the cyclist. That would be a serious truck driver mistake. Those things shouldn't happen but do, just like people blowing a red light. I had that a while ago while on the bicycle. Luckily I always look left and right even if I had green for a while. Might have saved my life. Anyhow, I would never pass a truck on the right unless I have established an acknowledged visual contact with the driver. But the bike lane sends a different message, as interpreted by the cyclist in Andrew's link and many other cyclists. Again, this collision type was responsible for many of the cluster of cyclist deaths in London a couple years ago. A bike lane is _not_ a free ticket to a careless riding style. That cyclist was careless, plain and simple. There was a clearly visible turn signal yet he ignored it. You may say you know that. But it should be obvious even to you that many, many cyclists do NOT know that. Then they have no place on a bicycle in traffic. But what is the solution? There is very little effort expended to teaching cyclists how to operate competently in traffic. Instead, the major lobbying efforts are all about building facilities that will make bicycling safe for anyone "8 to 80." The implication is that nobody will have to know anything. They'll just toddle along in segregated facilities and all will be beautiful. But it won't. The "protected cycle tracks" those people lobby for lose all protection at every intersection; yet the cyclists are told they are safe, safe, safe - so of course, no need to look for the motorists who turn across the cyclist's path because the cyclists are hidden from view. No need to be aware that half the cyclists are riding opposite the normal direction of traffic, entering the intersection from a "Surprise!!" direction or location. Even the simple stripe of paint tells cyclists they can relax, when just the opposite is true. They now have to try to watch for opening car doors, plus extra debris on the road, plus motorists not noticing them and cutting across their path from behind or from ahead or from driveways. And why? Because they are afraid of being run down from behind. They are increasing the likelihood of about 95% of car-bike crashes, by hoping to reduce 5%. It's nuts. Let me add: Honestly, I'm not against all bike facilities. Even barrier-segregated cycle tracks can be appropriate in places with high vehicle speeds and no intersections. But this stuff is being pushed within cities with countless intersections, driveways, parked cars etc. And all because "If we build it they will come." I remain astonished that public policy is being driven by a feel-good movie. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#18
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On 2/19/2018 6:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/19/2018 5:36 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-19 13:14, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/19/2018 3:12 PM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-19 11:24, Frank Krygowski wrote: -buncha snip- I remain astonished that public policy is being driven by a feel-good movie. Not just regarding bicycles. Try reading the papers once in a while. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#19
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:43:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 2/19/2018 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote: On 2/19/2018 10:21 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html (I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.) How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision! In the U.S. it would have been mirror image, so a right hook. Over there, it's a left hook. Either way, it's a common collision. And this illustrates the weirdness of the bike lane concept. Under what circumstances would a straight-ahead motoring lane be placed between the curb and a lane where turns are permitted? And when would a motorist think it's safe to "undertake" like that when a vehicle has its turn signal blinking? Not mirror in my case; he pulled right with right blinker on, then suddenly decided on a left U-turn as I passed. Fortunately there were witnesses. Ah. Most American drivers don't understand what that stick thing is, the one just past the left side of their steering wheel. You encountered one who was even worse than average. I liked this instructional video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTFHCyNVBTk I like the "pretty incredible" and "but it may require you to put down your coffee" But he never mentioned bright, flashing, Daylight Driving Lights. -- Cheers, John B. |
#20
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Ouch. This happened to me once
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:42:11 -0800, Joerg
wrote: On 2018-02-19 08:21, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/19/2018 10:32 AM, AMuzi wrote: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...shing-car.html (I was test riding a customer's race bike when Asian Kitchen delivery turned in. They replaced his bike.) How odd! The magic paint somehow failed to prevent the collision! The turn signal of the car shown in the video should have. It is not wise to blow past a car when its turn signal clearly indicates that the driver intends to turn into your path. While it is still the fault of the car driver I do not understand how a cyclist could simply ignore that. Oh, and bright lights do help in such situations. When a car driver sees some really bright light in the rear view and outside mirror that does get their attention. Experienced it myself many times, when they slammed on the brake pedal. I knew it. If the bike had only had them super powerful daylight driving lights on it they would have been safe. -- Cheers, John B. |
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