#1
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Lacing suggestions
Hi All,
I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements. First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths and weaknesses. The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok (until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section. My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs, Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not very aero, and heavy. I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front, 28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS. So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy. I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep- V's. But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray. On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs. Joseph |
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#2
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Lacing suggestions
On May 8, 12:36*pm, "
wrote: Hi All, I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements. First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths and weaknesses. The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok (until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section. My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs, Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not very aero, and heavy. I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front, 28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS. So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy. I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep- V's. But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray. On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs. Joseph Friend of mine built radial with Dura-Ace hubs and broke the flange - one on the front hub then one on the rear. I recommend crossed spokes. |
#3
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Lacing suggestions
On May 8, 9:43*pm, Colin Campbell wrote:
wrote: Hi All, I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements. First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths and weaknesses. The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok (until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section. My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs, Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not very aero, and heavy. I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front, 28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS. So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy. I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep- V's. But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray. On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs. Joseph Joseph, Be sure you weigh the wheels you have, including the "every day" wheels. I was surprised recently to learn that my shop-built wheels on one bike were NOT tons heavier than the pair of Bontrager Race Lite wheels that I recently took off of the other bike. *I only got as far as weighing the rear wheels, but the Campy Record/32 DT Swiss spoke/Velocity AeroHead wheel with the Record cassette on it was only 90 grams heavier than the 24 spoke Race Lite, without a cassette. *Unless the Ti/Steel cassette is awfully light, I was going to do a swap and end up with a heavier rear wheel and bike. Now I'm reduced to switching from wire bead Vittoria Rubinos to folding Rubino Pros to save any more weight. *There are 160 grams to be gained there. I may have to start eating carefully again.... My Ultegra/Deep-V's aren't that bad, but my lightweight set (built myself) beats them by about 1100g! The new ones I'll be making with the DA hubs will be well heavier than those, but still quite a bit lighter than the every day wheels. But most importantly, they will be much more aero. Once done, I will have 3 wheelsets each with a distinct character: rugged, light, aero. Joseph |
#4
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Lacing suggestions
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#5
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Lacing suggestions
On May 8, 11:36*am, "
wrote: But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray. On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs. Depends somewhat on the stiffness of the rims... but I'll assume that they are pretty stiff. If you are using new Dura Ace hubs, then they should be ok for radial. These will be your "aero" wheels so low gear mashing is not something you need to worry about... so 2x DS and radial NDS should be fine. I lace hubs with that spacing radial heads in on the NDS... the wider bracing angle improves the lateral stiffness, and provided that you have adequate tension on the DS, you won't have to worry about the NDS spokes going slack. The NDS tension will be ~half the DS. Lace the front radial heads-in. Use CX-Rays all around. |
#6
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Lacing suggestions
On May 9, 5:19*am, Ron Ruff wrote:
On May 8, 11:36*am, " wrote: But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray. On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs. Depends somewhat on the stiffness of the rims... but I'll assume that they are pretty stiff. If you are using new Dura Ace hubs, then they should be ok for radial. These will be your "aero" wheels so low gear mashing is not something you need to worry about... so 2x DS and radial NDS should be fine. I lace hubs with that spacing radial heads in on the NDS... the wider bracing angle improves the lateral stiffness, and provided that you have adequate tension on the DS, you won't have to worry about the NDS spokes going slack. The NDS tension will be ~half the DS. Lace the front radial heads-in. Use CX-Rays all around. Sounds good. But is there any specific reason I would be better off with radial NDS over 2x all the way? While the wheels are aero and will be used in races that take advantage of that, it may well happen that there will be short steep hill sprints which will result in huge torque. Joseph Joseph |
#7
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Lacing suggestions
On May 8, 11:36*am, "
wrote: Hi All, I recently bought some pre-built wheels which turned out to not really be up to the task. So now I am going to build some replacements. First a little background on wheels I have and their various strengths and weaknesses. The pre-builts had 20 bladed radial spokes in front, 24 2x bladed back. The rear hub had high and narrow flanges. The rear felt ok (until I broke the freehub), but the front was too flexible. The brakes would rub when I stood. These had 50mm deep aero section. My every-day wheels are 28 2x front, 32 3x back. Ultegra hubs, Velocity Deep-V rims. Those are rock solid and plenty stiff. Just not very aero, and heavy. I have also a set of lightweight tubulars which are 28 radial front, 28 back 2x drive side, radial NDS. These are on American Classic hubs which are very narrow with virtually no dish, so the radial NDS is probably dumb. These wheels are very light, but the rear has a disconcerting springiness to it. My suspicions are that the narrow flange spacing and radial NDS are the main culprits. I only mention these wheels are evidence of why I am skeptical of radial NDS. So on to the new wheels. The rims are 28h 50mm deep carbon. 32 was not available. The hubs are Dura Ace 7800. Dura Ace have wider flanges than the AC, so I'm not too worried about the wheels being too floppy. I want aero, but also I want solid out of saddle feel like my Deep- V's. But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray. On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs. Joseph At 205 pounds and remembering that CX-rays are pretty thin, 2 cross front and 3 cross rear, laced inside pulling or head-out, due to the pulling spoke flange overlap. If you were starting from scratch, at least 32h rear, IMO. |
#8
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Lacing suggestions
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#9
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Lacing suggestions
On May 9, 3:32*pm, daveornee daveornee.395...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com wrote: Wrote: On May 9, 5:19*am, Ron Ruff wrote: On May 8, 11:36*am, " wrote: But the question is whether radial up front will provide a more laterally stiff wheel, or should I go with 2x? Spokes wil be CX-Ray. On the rear, it will be 2x drive side, but what about radial NDS? Is there any real reason I should do that? Any reason not to use CX-Ray on all 28, or should drive side be different? Rider weight 205lbs. Depends somewhat on the stiffness of the rims... but I'll assume that they are pretty stiff. If you are using new Dura Ace hubs, then they should be ok for radial. These will be your "aero" wheels so low gear mashing is not something you need to worry about... so 2x DS and radial NDS should be fine. I lace hubs with that spacing radial heads in on the NDS... the wider bracing angle improves the lateral stiffness, and provided that you have adequate tension on the DS, you won't have to worry about the NDS spokes going slack. The NDS tension will be ~half the DS. Lace the front radial heads-in. Use CX-Rays all around. Sounds good. But is there any specific reason I would be better off with radial NDS over 2x all the way? While the wheels are aero and will be used in races that take advantage of that, it may well happen that there will be short steep hill sprints which will result in huge torque. Joseph Joseph Different lacing patterns do different things in response to dynamic loading of the wheel. Ron Ruff's radial NDS side suggestion would give you the stiffest wheel because the NDS spokes heads in give the highest possible spoke support angle along with the shortest possible spoke length. * My suggestion of heads out gives a more tension balanced approach making the NDS spokes take up more of the load. * Either way, if any torque is transmitted to the NDS side spokes, they will increase in tension due to the torque. If you choose 2X NDS any torque transmitted to NDS will be shared with the DS side spokes. 2x NDS is a small compromise in stiffness and load sharing due to the spoke support angles, while assisting in the small amount of torque that is handled on NDS. *I would be comfortable building your wheels radial front and 2X both sides rear. -- daveornee There is some interesting stuff he http://www.geocities.com/spokeanwheel/lacingsr.htm My main concern is lateral stiffness in the front, and lateral stiffnes and torque resistance in the rear. I don't want the brakes to rub when I am out of the saddle, and I certainly don't want the occasional "boing" feeling I get with the rear wheel on my lightweight wheels when I stand in high torque conditions. So radial in the front sounds like the way to go for stiffness. Heads in. Pretty straight forward. What do you guys think about the 2x NDS, 3x DS recommended in the link above? And the reasoning? Joseph |
#10
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Lacing suggestions
http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/hikingbikinglacing.htm
Suggested lacing pattern to keep shoeslaces away from the chain. |
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