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published helmet research - not troll



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 18th 04, 11:12 PM
John Forrest Tomlinson
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Default published helmet research - not troll

On 18 Jun 2004 08:46:06 -0700, (CowPunk) wrote:

Are you saying you received minor brain injuries riding your MTB w/o a
helmet on? If not, how do you know helmets help prevent that?

JT



It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that
cracked plastic and dented styrofoam is better than
cracked skin and a dented skull.


I asked a very specific question in response to a specifc assertion --
that helmets protect from brain injuries hitting branches.

I'll accept that a helmet can protect from cracked skin in the
situations described. So can a wool hat.

Now what evidence do you have about helmets protecting against dented
skulls or brain injuries?

JT

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  #22  
Old June 18th 04, 11:16 PM
Shayne Wissler
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Default published helmet research - not troll


"John Forrest Tomlinson" wrote in message
...

Now what evidence do you have about helmets protecting against dented
skulls or brain injuries?


I have an idea for an experiment. Go outside and have someone hold a brick
about 2 feet over your bare head and have him drop it. Observe the pain and
damage (assuming you're still conscious). Then try the same experiment on
your friend, but have him wear a cycling helmet. If he laughs at you, you
may be able to infer from this, experimentally, that he thought it was not
necessary to run the experiment to know that you would end up with a damaged
head and he wouldn't.

If you are unable to apply the knowledge gained from this experiment to
real-life, I would submit that it's not more experiments that you're
actually in need of.


Shayne Wissler


  #23  
Old June 18th 04, 11:28 PM
Steven Bornfeld
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Default published helmet research - not troll



Shayne Wissler wrote:
"John Forrest Tomlinson" wrote in message
...


Now what evidence do you have about helmets protecting against dented
skulls or brain injuries?



I have an idea for an experiment. Go outside and have someone hold a brick
about 2 feet over your bare head and have him drop it. Observe the pain and
damage (assuming you're still conscious). Then try the same experiment on
your friend, but have him wear a cycling helmet. If he laughs at you, you
may be able to infer from this, experimentally, that he thought it was not
necessary to run the experiment to know that you would end up with a damaged
head and he wouldn't.

If you are unable to apply the knowledge gained from this experiment to
real-life, I would submit that it's not more experiments that you're
actually in need of.


Shayne Wissler


Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Tough to run a controlled study of
this type in real-life conditions.
Why someone would even try to suggest that helmets don't save lives
because there are no controlled studies to prove they do says more about
these people than it does about helmets.
I've heard the same arguments from people who don't wear seatbelts in
cars. I thought they made what could be valid points--until I spent a
year covering head/neck trauma during my residency.

Steve




  #24  
Old June 18th 04, 11:34 PM
John Forrest Tomlinson
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Default published helmet research - not troll

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 22:16:19 GMT, "Shayne Wissler"
wrote:


"John Forrest Tomlinson" wrote in message
.. .

Now what evidence do you have about helmets protecting against dented
skulls or brain injuries?


I have an idea for an experiment.

That's your evidence? That's speculation. Give us some evidence or
shut up.

JT
  #25  
Old June 18th 04, 11:36 PM
Frank Krygowski
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Default published helmet research - not troll

CowPunk wrote:


This whole helmet discussion reminds of my pesticide chemistry
class when my prof. would tell the class "but the LD50 is ...
blah, blah, blah.", but never took into account that while maybe
it takes a lot of whatever chemical to kill you, no one really
knows how much it takes to cause cancer, nerve damage,
brain damage, loss of eyesight, etc....


The discussion also reminds me of a class where everyone has a strong
opinion, but nobody does the homework! ;-)


The same thing holds true for this discussion. You're looking
at FATALITIES. What about the accidents where a helmet
prevented brain injury? It's not something that can be answered
or tested easily....


In another post, I mentioned a scientific study and an informal newpaper
article that both dealt with injuries, as opposed to fatalities. The
study was published as: "Trends in Cycle Injury in New Zealand under
Voluntary Helmet Use" by Scuffham & Langley, Accident Analysis and
Prevention, Vol. 29, No. 1, pp. 1-9, 1997.

Briefly: New Zealand was getting ready to make it illegal for anyone of
any age anywhere in the country to ride a bike without a helmet. As a
run-up, they promoted the heck out of helmets. Helmet use suddenly
surged in just a few years, from about 20% to over 80% for at least some
age groups.

The authors figured this was a great opportunity to show the benefit of
helmets. The checked medical records of cyclists admitted to all the
major hospitals. They were looking for the corresponding drop in the
percentage admitted due to head injury (as opposed to, say, broken legs,
internal injuries, etc.)

They found no detectable difference at all. Zero. From the medical
data, it was impossible to tell anyone had put on a helmet.

The New York Times did an article on the same issue: "A Bicycling
Mystery: Head Injuries Piling Up." http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1028.html

It's not a great article, but it does mention that there seems to be no
improvement visible due to America's adoption of bike helmets.


And I'll wear mine thank you, I've hit enough low hanging
tree branches while MTB riding to know they help.


I'm sure helmets help against these little bumps. I figure they also
help against scratches and some bruises. But they're sold to the public
and (especially) to the legislators as preventing death and serious
brain damage. That's where they apparently fail.

But you're welcome to wear yours. That's an individual decision.
You're probably better off not even giving your reason.

It's when you argue for _others_ to wear helmets, or start promoting
their effectiveness, that people will disagree.


--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

  #26  
Old June 18th 04, 11:39 PM
Shayne Wissler
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Posts: n/a
Default published helmet research - not troll


"Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message
...


Shayne Wissler wrote:
"John Forrest Tomlinson" wrote in message
...


Now what evidence do you have about helmets protecting against dented
skulls or brain injuries?



I have an idea for an experiment. Go outside and have someone hold a

brick
about 2 feet over your bare head and have him drop it. Observe the pain

and
damage (assuming you're still conscious). Then try the same experiment

on
your friend, but have him wear a cycling helmet. If he laughs at you,

you
may be able to infer from this, experimentally, that he thought it was

not
necessary to run the experiment to know that you would end up with a

damaged
head and he wouldn't.

If you are unable to apply the knowledge gained from this experiment to
real-life, I would submit that it's not more experiments that you're
actually in need of.


Shayne Wissler


Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Tough to run a controlled study of
this type in real-life conditions.


It's a mistake to think that you need a real-life trial in order to make
valid inferences from the experiments. Even a thought experiment (as the one
I gave above) is sufficient to know that helmets will protect your head to
an important degree.

But I agree with Frank that it should be left up to the individual to
decide--I don't wear my helmet all of the time. (Although perhaps I should:
my worst injury on the bike during the past year was less than a mile from
my house when I was just on a little ride around the block. I was sprinting
up the street and my foot came out of the pedal.)


Shayne Wissler


  #27  
Old June 18th 04, 11:41 PM
Shayne Wissler
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Posts: n/a
Default published helmet research - not troll


"John Forrest Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 22:16:19 GMT, "Shayne Wissler"
wrote:


"John Forrest Tomlinson" wrote in message
.. .

Now what evidence do you have about helmets protecting against dented
skulls or brain injuries?


I have an idea for an experiment.


That's your evidence? That's speculation.


Let me guess. You must be a follower of Hume.

On the contrary, the thought experiment I gave is perfectly valid evidence,
from which a reasonable person would infer that some fraction of real-life
accidents would result in a lesser injury if a helmet were worn.


Shayne Wissler


  #28  
Old June 18th 04, 11:43 PM
DRS
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Posts: n/a
Default published helmet research - not troll

"Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message


[...]

I've heard the same arguments from people who don't wear seatbelts in
cars. I thought they made what could be valid points--until I spent a
year covering head/neck trauma during my residency.


The difference is empirically obvious. I live in the first state in the
world that made seatbelt use compulsory (Victoria, Australia). Not only did
the fatality rate immediately plummet but the rate of spinal injuries
dropped 75% in the first year. There is no such corresponding data for
bicycle helmets.

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?


  #29  
Old June 19th 04, 12:07 AM
Jay Beattie
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Posts: n/a
Default published helmet research - not troll


"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
CowPunk wrote:


This whole helmet discussion reminds of my pesticide

chemistry
class when my prof. would tell the class "but the LD50 is ...
blah, blah, blah.", but never took into account that while

maybe
it takes a lot of whatever chemical to kill you, no one

really
knows how much it takes to cause cancer, nerve damage,
brain damage, loss of eyesight, etc....


The discussion also reminds me of a class where everyone has a

strong
opinion, but nobody does the homework! ;-)


The same thing holds true for this discussion. You're

looking
at FATALITIES. What about the accidents where a helmet
prevented brain injury? It's not something that can be

answered
or tested easily....


In another post, I mentioned a scientific study and an informal

newpaper
article that both dealt with injuries, as opposed to

fatalities. The
study was published as: "Trends in Cycle Injury in New Zealand

under
Voluntary Helmet Use" by Scuffham & Langley, Accident Analysis

and
Prevention, Vol. 29, No. 1, pp. 1-9, 1997.

Briefly: New Zealand was getting ready to make it illegal for

anyone of
any age anywhere in the country to ride a bike without a

helmet. As a
run-up, they promoted the heck out of helmets. Helmet use

suddenly
surged in just a few years, from about 20% to over 80% for at

least some
age groups.

The authors figured this was a great opportunity to show the

benefit of
helmets. The checked medical records of cyclists admitted to

all the
major hospitals. They were looking for the corresponding drop

in the
percentage admitted due to head injury (as opposed to, say,

broken legs,
internal injuries, etc.)

They found no detectable difference at all. Zero. From the

medical
data, it was impossible to tell anyone had put on a helmet.

The New York Times did an article on the same issue: "A

Bicycling
Mystery: Head Injuries Piling Up."

http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1028.html


And the New York Times wrote on May 1, 2001 that:

"A report last summer on "The Future of Children" noted that 35
states lacked bicycle helmet laws, even though "research has
shown that bicycle helmets are 85 percent effective at reducing
head injuries." A study in Queensland, Australia, of bicycle
accidents among children showed that wearing a helmet reduced the
risk of loss of consciousness from a head injury by 86 percent.

Even preschoolers who do not ride in traffic and toddlers on
tricycles need head protection "whenever and wherever they are
cycling," insists Dr. Elizabeth C. Powell of Children's Memorial
Hospital in Chicago. Dr. Powell, a specialist in pediatric
emergency medicine, notes that helmets can also reduce the risk
of facial injuries when a child falls off a tricycle or bicycle."

I guess it all depends on whether you live in New Zeland or
Australia. Or whether you are Rivera or Scuffham. For every
scientific study you come up with, I can find one or two that go
the other way. And in the final analysis, it really does not
matter, because we all just do what we do -- and, with minor
exception, we are all too old for the MHLs in most states. MLHs
are mostly a kid thing, and my kid wears a helmet when he is
riding or skiing -- but not when he is walking, showering, or
playing with his Legos or YuGiOh cards. Yes, I know that is
inconsistent when we look at injury patterns, but we have learned
to live with that inconsistency. -- Jay Beattie.




 




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