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Hamburg G20 summit protests and bicycles



 
 
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  #191  
Old July 15th 17, 07:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 6,374
Default Hamburg G20 summit protests and bicycles

NUTTO

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com...flation-rates/
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  #192  
Old July 15th 17, 10:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Hamburg G20 summit protests and bicycles

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 23:16:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/14/2017 9:17 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 12:19:56 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 7:02:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/14/2017 8:56 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:08:46 AM UTC-7, Emanuel Berg wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

"The make-work bias is best illustrated by
a story, perhaps apocryphal, of an economist
who visits China under Mao Zedong. He sees
hundreds of workers building a dam with
shovels. He asks: “Why don’t they use
a mechanical digger?†“That would put people
out of work,†replies the foreman. “Oh,†says
the economist, “I thought you were making
a dam. If it’s jobs you want, take away their
shovels and give them spoons.â€

To dig a dam with spoons doesn't qualify as
creating jobs in my book - torture, rather.

But shovels - why not? Depending on the
situation, sometimes you can use a mechanical
digger, sometimes shovels.

It is not about having a dam OR jobs. One could
have both at the same time.

For the things I suggest perhaps ditches
instead of a dam would suffice...

Have you ever been around a hydro-power dam? Shovels indeed!


That ship has sailed. They're being removed faster than dams
are built. We have less hydroelectric capacity now than in 1930.

I don't know where you get that idea. There are something like 80,000 UNPOWERED dams in the US that are presently in the process of being powered.

The major dams like Hoover and Grand Coulee have been in almost continuous upgrades.

What's more the power stations at the big dams also are "power storage" facilities in which sources such as coal that need to run "full blast" all the time pump water into the reservoir behind the dam as a sort of power storage system.

There is NO dams being removed to my knowledge. And dams that are here are in almost continuous upgrade.


See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USHydroPower.jpg

In 1949 hydroelectric accounted for 30%+ of electricity generated and
today it is about 6%.


... because other methods of electricity generation have grown.

I suspect that the low hanging fruit - the valleys that could easily be
dammed - were taken care of by 1949.

The local river has many low-head dams, installed about 100 years ago to
ensure a supply of cooling water for the local steel industry. One very
smart engineer I know once wondered why they don't put electricity
generating turbines on every such dam.

But the answer should have been obvious. With low head, there's not much
power potential. With low power output the payback period would be far
too long on the initial investment and subsequent maintenance.


We did the civil work in support of a geo-thermal project on Salak
mountain, just south of Jakarta, and found a lot of farmers and
country people had built their own individual power plants using
automobile alternators driven by a water wheel. The streams weren't
very large but the mountain is awful steep :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #193  
Old July 15th 17, 04:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default Hamburg G20 summit protests and bicycles

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 13:41:29 +0700, John B.
wrote:

The WPA and CCC were part of the New Deal. The CCC employed maximum of
about 300,000 at it's high point and the WPA made work for about
3,000,000 people.


An anecdote from that era about a quarry owner and a union organizer
watching a steam shovel at work. The union leader says something like
"That steam shovel has replaced the jobs of 100 men with shovels" to
which the quarry owner replied "Why not 1,000 men with teaspoons"?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #194  
Old July 15th 17, 06:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 6,374
Default Hamburg G20 summit protests and bicycles

On Saturday, July 15, 2017 at 11:45:27 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 13:41:29 +0700, John B.
wrote:

The WPA and CCC were part of the New Deal. The CCC employed maximum of
about 300,000 at it's high point and the WPA made work for about
3,000,000 people.


An anecdote from that era about a quarry owner and a union organizer
watching a steam shovel at work. The union leader says something like
"That steam shovel has replaced the jobs of 100 men with shovels" to
which the quarry owner replied "Why not 1,000 men with teaspoons"?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


irrelevant anecdote
  #195  
Old July 15th 17, 11:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Hamburg G20 summit protests and bicycles

On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 12:20:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 7:02:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/14/2017 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:08:46 AM UTC-7, Emanuel Berg wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

"The make-work bias is best illustrated by
a story, perhaps apocryphal, of an economist
who visits China under Mao Zedong. He sees
hundreds of workers building a dam with
shovels. He asks: “Why don’t they use
a mechanical digger?†“That would put people
out of work,†replies the foreman. “Oh,†says
the economist, “I thought you were making
a dam. If it’s jobs you want, take away their
shovels and give them spoons.â€

To dig a dam with spoons doesn't qualify as
creating jobs in my book - torture, rather.

But shovels - why not? Depending on the
situation, sometimes you can use a mechanical
digger, sometimes shovels.

It is not about having a dam OR jobs. One could
have both at the same time.

For the things I suggest perhaps ditches
instead of a dam would suffice...

Have you ever been around a hydro-power dam? Shovels indeed!


That ship has sailed. They're being removed faster than dams
are built. We have less hydroelectric capacity now than in 1930.


I don't know where you get that idea. There are something like 80,000 UNPOWERED dams in the US that are presently in the process of being powered.

The major dams like Hoover and Grand Coulee have been in almost continuous upgrades.

What's more the power stations at the big dams also are "power storage" facilities in which sources such as coal that need to run "full blast" all the time pump water into the reservoir behind the dam as a sort of power storage system.

There is NO dams being removed to my knowledge. And dams that are here are in almost continuous upgrade.


There are a number of dams being removed in the Pacific Northwest -- including dams with hydro-electric generation facilities.
http://www.audubon.org/magazine/janu...oval-under-way
http://www.opb.org/news/article/two-...e-coming-down/

-- Jay Beattie.
  #196  
Old July 16th 17, 12:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 6,374
Default Hamburg G20 summit protests and bicycles

37% ?
  #197  
Old July 16th 17, 12:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,374
Default Hamburg G20 summit protests and bicycles

one removed as I drove beneath it along Juan de Fuca ... a big deal locally. Very dam conscious state with THE Columbia rolling thru. I have most of Columbia's dams under tour, an impressive group of engineered structures

removal dams tend not so as seen from photos. Washington is not extensively motivated to journalism analysis ... they shoot analysts ... but seeing the removal photos we get the idea that down was better than repair.

the down group was vocal as they are in the naked bicycle festival runs thru Seattle.

goo.gl/JfTvwi
  #198  
Old July 16th 17, 03:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Hamburg G20 summit protests and bicycles

On 7/15/2017 5:48 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 23:16:58 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/14/2017 9:17 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 12:19:56 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 7:02:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/14/2017 8:56 AM,
wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:08:46 AM UTC-7, Emanuel Berg wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

"The make-work bias is best illustrated by
a story, perhaps apocryphal, of an economist
who visits China under Mao Zedong. He sees
hundreds of workers building a dam with
shovels. He asks: “Why don’t they use
a mechanical digger?†“That would put people
out of work,†replies the foreman. “Oh,†says
the economist, “I thought you were making
a dam. If it’s jobs you want, take away their
shovels and give them spoons.â€

To dig a dam with spoons doesn't qualify as
creating jobs in my book - torture, rather.

But shovels - why not? Depending on the
situation, sometimes you can use a mechanical
digger, sometimes shovels.

It is not about having a dam OR jobs. One could
have both at the same time.

For the things I suggest perhaps ditches
instead of a dam would suffice...

Have you ever been around a hydro-power dam? Shovels indeed!


That ship has sailed. They're being removed faster than dams
are built. We have less hydroelectric capacity now than in 1930.

I don't know where you get that idea. There are something like 80,000 UNPOWERED dams in the US that are presently in the process of being powered.

The major dams like Hoover and Grand Coulee have been in almost continuous upgrades.

What's more the power stations at the big dams also are "power storage" facilities in which sources such as coal that need to run "full blast" all the time pump water into the reservoir behind the dam as a sort of power storage system.

There is NO dams being removed to my knowledge. And dams that are here are in almost continuous upgrade.

See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USHydroPower.jpg

In 1949 hydroelectric accounted for 30%+ of electricity generated and
today it is about 6%.


... because other methods of electricity generation have grown.

I suspect that the low hanging fruit - the valleys that could easily be
dammed - were taken care of by 1949.

The local river has many low-head dams, installed about 100 years ago to
ensure a supply of cooling water for the local steel industry. One very
smart engineer I know once wondered why they don't put electricity
generating turbines on every such dam.

But the answer should have been obvious. With low head, there's not much
power potential. With low power output the payback period would be far
too long on the initial investment and subsequent maintenance.


We did the civil work in support of a geo-thermal project on Salak
mountain, just south of Jakarta, and found a lot of farmers and
country people had built their own individual power plants using
automobile alternators driven by a water wheel. The streams weren't
very large but the mountain is awful steep :-)


On one of our bike tours, we rode for quite a while with a couple from
Vermont. They had rural property with a small stream but lots of
elevation change. He described a mini-turbine setup he had that
generated enough electricity for him to make over $100 per month selling
it to the local power company. But again, the elevation differential is
key.


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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