wheel aerodynamic advantage

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:44:25 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Nov 16, 6:30 pm, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:37:58 -0800 (PST), Chalo



wrote:
Carl Fogel wrote:

Andres Muro wrote:

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and 16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Funny. Almost all my wheels have 48 round spokes, and I ride so
slowly I sometimes wonder whether I'm moving backwards. I had always
credited the foolishly unaerodynamic wheels for my laughable
performance. I reckoned if I only had enough money to buy some swell
wheels with NACA airfoil rims and 7 bladed spokes in a three-quarters
radial pattern, I'd be even faster than those Euro pros who are
handicapped by Luddite UCI rules.

Now you're telling me all I have to gain is two lousy percent?!
That's just not going to work. I need a second opinion.

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

Okay, here's a second opinion: red paint.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel


[snip]

But, Carl, your advice wasn't dynamic, didn't anticipate Andres'
improvement. The stronger and more fit he becomes, the faster he goes,
and the greater the aerodynamic advantage of the expenditure.

[snip]

Dear Harry,

Actually, anticipating significant improvement for a rider as
experienced as Andres is A) unlikely and B) not going to make much
difference anyway.

At 250 watts and ~20 mph average speed from a standing start for 4 km,
the wheels save about ten seconds in about seven or eight minutes.

At 400 watts and ~25 mph average speed from a standing start for 4 km,
they save about twelve seconds in about six minutes.

http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course 250 watts
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)
------
9.69 / 461.80 = 2.1% faster time

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course 400 watts
-------
368.63 standard 32-spoke box wheels
356.36 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)
------
12.27 / 368.63 = 3.3% faster time

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Nov 16, 4:46*pm, " wrote:
On Nov 16, 2:15*pm, "Carl Sundquist" wrote:





wrote in message

.. .

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:38:27 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Question:

Lately I've been riding by myself for about 50-60 flat miles on
weekends. I do long stretches where I try to keep it above 20mph.

I have a tribike and a road bike and use them interchangeably. Both
have conventional 19mm deep rims with 32 spokes.

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and *16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

I am considering the neuvation m28 aeros. There are also a few other
wheels in the market with 30 mm rims and 24 aero apokes for less than
$200.

Opinions, advise?

Dear Andre,

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds * for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
461.80 * standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 * lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I don't think this is picking at nits, but Andres said _over_ 20 mph, not
_at_ 20 mph.

Not much over 20mph. However, 0.4 miles an hour is something
significant. Sometimes, with headwinds, I am going 19.X mph and want
to get over 20mph. The 0,4 difference may get me there.


Keep in mind Carl's 9.7 second calculated savings over 2.5 miles is
the difference between regular wheels, and $2,000+ super duper aero
deep section wheels. Not $200, $2,000+.

On Nov 17, 1:54*pm, "
wrote:

Keep in mind Carl's 9.7 second calculated savings over 2.5 miles is
the difference between regular wheels, and $2,000+ super duper aero
deep section wheels. *Not $200, $2,000+.

Which becomes 1:37 (approx.) in a 40k ITT. Which is why (some) people
buy them. Or borrow/rent/get sponsorship.

I'd guess "even more" (time reduction) with a disc rear?

And more yet, since speed will be much higher than 20mph.

Just sayin'. --D-y

On Nov 17, 12:36 pm, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:44:25 -0800 (PST), "



wrote:
On Nov 16, 6:30 pm, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:37:58 -0800 (PST), Chalo

wrote:
Carl Fogel wrote:

Andres Muro wrote:

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and 16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Funny. Almost all my wheels have 48 round spokes, and I ride so
slowly I sometimes wonder whether I'm moving backwards. I had always
credited the foolishly unaerodynamic wheels for my laughable
performance. I reckoned if I only had enough money to buy some swell
wheels with NACA airfoil rims and 7 bladed spokes in a three-quarters
radial pattern, I'd be even faster than those Euro pros who are
handicapped by Luddite UCI rules.

Now you're telling me all I have to gain is two lousy percent?!
That's just not going to work. I need a second opinion.

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

Okay, here's a second opinion: red paint.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[snip]

But, Carl, your advice wasn't dynamic, didn't anticipate Andres'
improvement. The stronger and more fit he becomes, the faster he goes,
and the greater the aerodynamic advantage of the expenditure.

[snip]

Dear Harry,

Actually, anticipating significant improvement for a rider as
experienced as Andres is A) unlikely and B) not going to make much
difference anyway.

At 250 watts and ~20 mph average speed from a standing start for 4 km,
the wheels save about ten seconds in about seven or eight minutes.

At 400 watts and ~25 mph average speed from a standing start for 4 km,
they save about twelve seconds in about six minutes.

http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course 250 watts
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)
------
9.69 / 461.80 = 2.1% faster time

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course 400 watts
-------
368.63 standard 32-spoke box wheels
356.36 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)
------
12.27 / 368.63 = 3.3% faster time

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I guess that I'll save my money. I've always suspected that there
wouldn't be that much difference, but when you talk to other people,
they claim that they notice a tremendous advantage. The power of
advertisement is incredible.

I wish I would be so easily influenced by ads. I guess, the joy that
people get is tremendous when they spend money and feel a great
improvement. I'm always too cynical to notice improvement anyways.

On Nov 17, 5:19 pm, " wrote:
On Nov 17, 12:36 pm, wrote:





On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:44:25 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
On Nov 16, 6:30 pm, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:37:58 -0800 (PST), Chalo

wrote:
Carl Fogel wrote:

Andres Muro wrote:

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and 16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Funny. Almost all my wheels have 48 round spokes, and I ride so
slowly I sometimes wonder whether I'm moving backwards. I had always
credited the foolishly unaerodynamic wheels for my laughable
performance. I reckoned if I only had enough money to buy some swell
wheels with NACA airfoil rims and 7 bladed spokes in a three-quarters
radial pattern, I'd be even faster than those Euro pros who are
handicapped by Luddite UCI rules.

Now you're telling me all I have to gain is two lousy percent?!
That's just not going to work. I need a second opinion.

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

Okay, here's a second opinion: red paint.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[snip]

But, Carl, your advice wasn't dynamic, didn't anticipate Andres'
improvement. The stronger and more fit he becomes, the faster he goes,
and the greater the aerodynamic advantage of the expenditure.

[snip]

Dear Harry,

Actually, anticipating significant improvement for a rider as
experienced as Andres is A) unlikely and B) not going to make much
difference anyway.

At 250 watts and ~20 mph average speed from a standing start for 4 km,
the wheels save about ten seconds in about seven or eight minutes.

At 400 watts and ~25 mph average speed from a standing start for 4 km,
they save about twelve seconds in about six minutes.

http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course 250 watts
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)
------
9.69 / 461.80 = 2.1% faster time

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course 400 watts
-------
368.63 standard 32-spoke box wheels
356.36 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)
------
12.27 / 368.63 = 3.3% faster time

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I guess that I'll save my money. I've always suspected that there
wouldn't be that much difference, but when you talk to other people,
they claim that they notice a tremendous advantage. The power of
advertisement is incredible.

I wish I would be so easily influenced by ads. I guess, the joy that
people get is tremendous when they spend money and feel a great
improvement. I'm always too cynical to notice improvement anyways.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I know the guys @ my shop fairly well. When I finally broke down and
bought a real road bike, I bought it from them. I rode many models.
Some had areo spokes, some didn't. The advice of the sales guy, who
rides road & MTB & likes to thrash the same trails I do and knows my
riding ability?

"Just get whatever's comfortable for you. In the price point you're
looking at, it's all good enough. You won't notice a difference in a
few spokes or a level up in components. You'll notice a much lighter
bike with a good range of gears that you're comfortable on. Tires
make a bigger difference than saving a gram here or there, or a couple
spokes. The way you ride, I'd worry more about warranty."

He ended up selling me a heavily discounted leftover that fit me well,
was very comfortable and happened to be my favorite color. It's
mostly 105 components, has somewhat low spokes, and a carbon/aluminum
combo frame, but none of that made my decision. The big factors were
"it's comfortable to me" "it fits" "the price is right" and "yeah,
they stand behind their stuff and if you break it without crashing it
or doing anything blatantly stupid with it we'll be able to get it
warrantied for you".

This guy had pressed my frame back together and replaced a shattered
rear derailler for me in the past. I went in bummed thinking I needed
to buy a new bike and part with an old friend, and he fixed my old
frame and sold me a new derailler. I trust him. I’ve been thrilled
with the new bike. I can ride faster, for longer. I don’t think it
has anything to do with the spoke count, or shape. I trust it’s for
the reasons he gave me. I have never trusted any salesman like I
trust this guy when they’re trying to sell me something. I think part
of this is that the guy doesn’t really try to sell, so much as just
see if he has something that’ll work. He seems more interested in
wrenching on bikes, riding bikes, and talking about riding bikes than
he does in selling one.

On Nov 17, 3:41 pm, " wrote:
On Nov 17, 5:19 pm, " wrote:



On Nov 17, 12:36 pm, wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:44:25 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
On Nov 16, 6:30 pm, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:37:58 -0800 (PST), Chalo

wrote:
Carl Fogel wrote:

Andres Muro wrote:

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and 16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Funny. Almost all my wheels have 48 round spokes, and I ride so
slowly I sometimes wonder whether I'm moving backwards. I had always
credited the foolishly unaerodynamic wheels for my laughable
performance. I reckoned if I only had enough money to buy some swell
wheels with NACA airfoil rims and 7 bladed spokes in a three-quarters
radial pattern, I'd be even faster than those Euro pros who are
handicapped by Luddite UCI rules.

Now you're telling me all I have to gain is two lousy percent?!
That's just not going to work. I need a second opinion.

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

Okay, here's a second opinion: red paint.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[snip]

But, Carl, your advice wasn't dynamic, didn't anticipate Andres'
improvement. The stronger and more fit he becomes, the faster he goes,
and the greater the aerodynamic advantage of the expenditure.

[snip]

Dear Harry,

Actually, anticipating significant improvement for a rider as
experienced as Andres is A) unlikely and B) not going to make much
difference anyway.

At 250 watts and ~20 mph average speed from a standing start for 4 km,
the wheels save about ten seconds in about seven or eight minutes.

At 400 watts and ~25 mph average speed from a standing start for 4 km,
they save about twelve seconds in about six minutes.

http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course 250 watts
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)
------
9.69 / 461.80 = 2.1% faster time

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course 400 watts
-------
368.63 standard 32-spoke box wheels
356.36 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)
------
12.27 / 368.63 = 3.3% faster time

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I guess that I'll save my money. I've always suspected that there
wouldn't be that much difference, but when you talk to other people,
they claim that they notice a tremendous advantage. The power of
advertisement is incredible.

I wish I would be so easily influenced by ads. I guess, the joy that
people get is tremendous when they spend money and feel a great
improvement. I'm always too cynical to notice improvement anyways.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I know the guys @ my shop fairly well. When I finally broke down and
bought a real road bike, I bought it from them. I rode many models.
Some had areo spokes, some didn't. The advice of the sales guy, who
rides road & MTB & likes to thrash the same trails I do and knows my
riding ability?

"Just get whatever's comfortable for you. In the price point you're
looking at, it's all good enough. You won't notice a difference in a
few spokes or a level up in components. You'll notice a much lighter
bike with a good range of gears that you're comfortable on. Tires
make a bigger difference than saving a gram here or there, or a couple
spokes. The way you ride, I'd worry more about warranty."

He ended up selling me a heavily discounted leftover that fit me well,
was very comfortable and happened to be my favorite color. It's
mostly 105 components, has somewhat low spokes, and a carbon/aluminum
combo frame, but none of that made my decision. The big factors were
"it's comfortable to me" "it fits" "the price is right" and "yeah,
they stand behind their stuff and if you break it without crashing it
or doing anything blatantly stupid with it we'll be able to get it
warrantied for you".

This guy had pressed my frame back together and replaced a shattered
rear derailler for me in the past. I went in bummed thinking I needed
to buy a new bike and part with an old friend, and he fixed my old
frame and sold me a new derailler. I trust him. I’ve been thrilled
with the new bike. I can ride faster, for longer. I don’t think it
has anything to do with the spoke count, or shape. I trust it’s for
the reasons he gave me. I have never trusted any salesman like I
trust this guy when they’re trying to sell me something. I think part
of this is that the guy doesn’t really try to sell, so much as just
see if he has something that’ll work. He seems more interested in
wrenching on bikes, riding bikes, and talking about riding bikes than
he does in selling one.

I am friends with the local shop owners. I ride with them, and I talk
bikes with them. However, I rarely buy things from them because I
rarely buy anything anyways and they don't usually have the things
that I want. Even though I am friends with them. we never talk about
components because people tend to believe all the stories that they
tell. I ride with a heavy bike and they all ride with these much
lighter bikes and they think that it makes a big deal. They tell
stories about their new wheels, forks, bikes and other stuff as it was
incredibly noticeable. Sometimes I wonder.

I played with the analytic cycling chart and saw that riding against a
15 mph wind for 20 miles you can get some advantage with a more aero
wheel. I don't know if I would be able to feel it though.

"Keep in mind Carl's 9.7 second calculated savings over 2.5 miles is
the difference between regular wheels, and $2,000+ super duper aero
deep section wheels. Not $200, $2,000+. "



This is 97 seconds in a 40 K TT - a serious amount of time at any
level of competition. Whether or not it's worth it to you depends on
personal finance, etc. However, this is an undeniably huge amount of
time, even in the lowest levels of amateur racing.
For training or enthusiast riding, hard to justify anything other than
a good set of conventional hand-built wheels. For racing, if you have
the money, no one can afford to give away this amount of time, even in
Cat IV/V.

On Nov 17, 5:19*pm, " wrote:


I wish I would be so easily influenced by ads. I guess, the joy that
people get is tremendous when they spend money and feel a great
improvement. I'm always too cynical to notice improvement anyways.

There's another path. You could try to accept the premise of all the
ads you see, perhaps by memorizing them, or meditating on them, using
the ad headlines as mantras. Or perhaps by hypnosis. Believe!

But before you do, hire some poor college student advertising major to
1) remove, black out or otherwise censor every ad in Buycycling and
Velo News, 2) intercept all bike catalogs at your mailbox, and 3)
write convincing ad copy for bog-standard components.

If you Believe! that 36 spoke wheels with wide tires, schrader valves
and pink valve caps will make you faster, you'll probably be faster.
And all you're out is the cost of a pink valve cap, and a few bucks to
the college student.

It's worth a try, anyway!

- Frank Krygowski

aka Andres Muro wrote:
Question:

Lately I've been riding by myself for about 50-60 flat miles on
weekends. I do long stretches where I try to keep it above 20mph.

I have a tribike and a road bike and use them interchangeably. Both
have conventional 19mm deep rims with 32 spokes.

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and 16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

I am considering the neuvation m28 aeros. There are also a few other
wheels in the market with 30 mm rims and 24 aero apokes for less than
$200.

Opinions, advise?

Try http://www.velokraft.com/-vk2.htm for more speed on solo rides.
Just avoid riding in Alaska.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
If you are not a part of the solution, you are a part of the precipitate.

On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:19:29 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Nov 17, 12:36 pm, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:44:25 -0800 (PST), "



wrote:
On Nov 16, 6:30 pm, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:37:58 -0800 (PST), Chalo

wrote:
Carl Fogel wrote:

Andres Muro wrote:

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and 16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Funny. Almost all my wheels have 48 round spokes, and I ride so
slowly I sometimes wonder whether I'm moving backwards. I had always
credited the foolishly unaerodynamic wheels for my laughable
performance. I reckoned if I only had enough money to buy some swell
wheels with NACA airfoil rims and 7 bladed spokes in a three-quarters
radial pattern, I'd be even faster than those Euro pros who are
handicapped by Luddite UCI rules.

Now you're telling me all I have to gain is two lousy percent?!
That's just not going to work. I need a second opinion.

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

Okay, here's a second opinion: red paint.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[snip]

But, Carl, your advice wasn't dynamic, didn't anticipate Andres'
improvement. The stronger and more fit he becomes, the faster he goes,
and the greater the aerodynamic advantage of the expenditure.

[snip]

Dear Harry,

Actually, anticipating significant improvement for a rider as
experienced as Andres is A) unlikely and B) not going to make much
difference anyway.

At 250 watts and ~20 mph average speed from a standing start for 4 km,
the wheels save about ten seconds in about seven or eight minutes.

At 400 watts and ~25 mph average speed from a standing start for 4 km,
they save about twelve seconds in about six minutes.

http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course 250 watts
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)
------
9.69 / 461.80 = 2.1% faster time

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course 400 watts
-------
368.63 standard 32-spoke box wheels
356.36 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)
------
12.27 / 368.63 = 3.3% faster time

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I guess that I'll save my money. I've always suspected that there
wouldn't be that much difference, but when you talk to other people,
they claim that they notice a tremendous advantage. The power of
advertisement is incredible.

I wish I would be so easily influenced by ads. I guess, the joy that
people get is tremendous when they spend money and feel a great
improvement. I'm always too cynical to notice improvement anyways.

Dear Andres,

I sympathize.

The speed differences debated on RBT often turn out to be much smaller
than what ~20 mph riders like you and me hope for.

If there were any easy way to add enough speed to be felt, every
bicycle would have it.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel