Too much weight on my hands?

"Jim Adney" wrote in message

I'm gonna have to disagree with most of the above.

While the lowered handlebars may certainly be uncomfortable for many
people, it has little effect on the amount of weight on the
handlebars.

The amount of weight on the handlebars is determined by:
Where your center of gravity is WRT a vertical line up from the
crank
axis.

The angle of the seat. If the saddle nose angles down, you'll tend
to
slide forward, putting more weight on your hands.

The amount of torque you're exerting on the pedals. Torque on the
pedals pushes you back on the bike and takes weight off your hands.

I would suggest that the nose of the saddle is too low. This
produces
a force forward onto the hands. Note that putting the nose too high
also has "disadvantages."

Secondly, you will find that if you ride hard (more torque on the
pedals) your hands will suffer less. I find that my hands suffer a
LOT
more if I try to ride slowly with my wife or daughter.

You MAY need to slide the seat backwards on the seat rails in order
to
move your center of mass to the rear. We can't tell whether this is
important to you from just a photo of the bike, because it has to do
with your body shape.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

I generally concur with the notion that force exerted on the pedals
will translate to a reduction of weight on the hands, even when the
rider has a substantial forward bend at the hips. With an ideal fit,
when the rider is pedaling at a normal output, weight on the hands
will be minimal. The trick to achieving this fit, as I see it, is to
get the rider's bodyweight centered properly in relation to the crank,
as I think you've pointed out.

I think saddle setback should be proportional to the stem length, as a
guideline, and that the rider should be able to readily lift his or
her butt from the saddle without any exertion put to the bars. If the
saddle is too far back, then the rider's position over the crank will
be such that the rider must pull on the bars to lift from the saddle.
At the same time, if the saddle is set too far forward, then the rider
will have more weight located over the bars and will suffer the pain
that goes with it. (In both extremes, ride stability is compromised,
but that's another topic.)

IMO, the saddle should always be level, not tilted. When writing a
previous response to the OP, I think I guessed the rider tilted the
nose of the saddle down because the saddle is too high and/or too far
back. The tilt would decrease the reach to the bars and the distance
to the crank.

If it's true that the nose was tilted down in an effort to improve the
overall fit, then a good solution at that point may be found by simply
backing up and doing the ft adjustment properly. I'd correct the tilt
and lower the saddle first. Then, if the rider still has too much
weight on the hands, increase the saddle setback and go from there.

/*mykal*/

On 22 Jul 2005 10:25:51 -0700 "41" wrote:

Do you mean that you can't because you slide off the saddle? Then you
just have to tilt the nose up, regardless of whether your saddle is far
forward or back. How are you going to slide downhill an uphill?

What happens is that I start to slide forward, and without hand
pressure, have no way to stop myself. The reason for this is that my
total body CM is slightly in front of the vertical line thru the BB.
My seat is horizontal.

To illustrate: Stand with your back and heels against a flat wall. Now
try to touch your toes. Assuming you are able to touch your toes when
standing out in the middle of the floor, explain why you can't do this
when standing against the wall.

If you find this difficult, as I expect, move a table in front of you
so you can put your hands on it to keep yourself from falling forward.

Now get a friend to place a book between your butt and the wall.
Keep in mind that your contention is that moving your butt forward
will reduce the weight on your hands, so all you have to do is move it
far enough forward to reduce the required hand pressure to zero and
this exercise will become easy. Does it?

I'd still like to hear from some other riders out there. If there's
anyone still reading this thread, please tell us whether you can lift
your hands from the bars and ride no-handed while still holding your
normal "down on the drops" body position.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:41:44 -0400 "David L. Johnson"
wrote:

Yes to this point.

Dave,

I generally find your posts to be pretty level-headed. Can you ride in
a drop bar position and lift your hands and ride no-handed without
otherwise changing your body position?

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Jim Adney wrote:
On 22 Jul 2005 10:25:51 -0700 "41" wrote:


Do you mean that you can't because you slide off the saddle? Then you
just have to tilt the nose up, regardless of whether your saddle is far
forward or back. How are you going to slide downhill an uphill?


What happens is that I start to slide forward, and without hand
pressure, have no way to stop myself. The reason for this is that my
total body CM is slightly in front of the vertical line thru the BB.
My seat is horizontal.

To illustrate: Stand with your back and heels against a flat wall. Now
try to touch your toes. Assuming you are able to touch your toes when
standing out in the middle of the floor, explain why you can't do this
when standing against the wall.

If you find this difficult, as I expect, move a table in front of you
so you can put your hands on it to keep yourself from falling forward.

Now get a friend to place a book between your butt and the wall.
Keep in mind that your contention is that moving your butt forward
will reduce the weight on your hands, so all you have to do is move it
far enough forward to reduce the required hand pressure to zero and
this exercise will become easy. Does it?

I'd still like to hear from some other riders out there. If there's
anyone still reading this thread, please tell us whether you can lift
your hands from the bars and ride no-handed while still holding your
normal "down on the drops" body position.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

I can, and do, when I'm powering strongly. Casual cycling no-can-do.

Robin Hubert

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:10:10 -0500, Jim Adney wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:41:44 -0400 "David L. Johnson"
wrote:

Yes to this point.

Dave,

I generally find your posts to be pretty level-headed. Can you ride in
a drop bar position and lift your hands and ride no-handed without
otherwise changing your body position?

Odd question, but, yes.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a
_`\(,_ | conclusion. -- George Bernard Shaw
(_)/ (_) |

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:10:10 -0500, Jim Adney wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:41:44 -0400 "David L. Johnson"
wrote:

Yes to this point.

Dave,

I generally find your posts to be pretty level-headed. Can you ride in
a drop bar position and lift your hands and ride no-handed without
otherwise changing your body position?

I looked at some of your other posts on this tangent, and noted there that
you insisted on coasting while doing this. Can't say I've tried that, but
I have taken my hands off the bars (from the drops as well as the tops)
while climbing -- no particular reason, just fooling around. In order to
stay in that position I seem to pedal harder, so I guess I am pushing my
upper body up with my legs.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored
_`\(,_ | by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." --Ralph Waldo
(_)/ (_) | Emerson

and wrist grips before and after

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:51:50 GMT Robin Hubert
wrote:

Jim Adney wrote:

I'd still like to hear from some other riders out there. If there's
anyone still reading this thread, please tell us whether you can lift
your hands from the bars and ride no-handed while still holding your
normal "down on the drops" body position.

I can, and do, when I'm powering strongly. Casual cycling no-can-do.

Yes, that's my exact experience also. The reaction torque from the
pedals makes the difference.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:59:30 -0400 "David L. Johnson"
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:10:10 -0500, Jim Adney wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:41:44 -0400 "David L. Johnson"
wrote:

Yes to this point.

Dave,

I generally find your posts to be pretty level-headed. Can you ride in
a drop bar position and lift your hands and ride no-handed without
otherwise changing your body position?

I looked at some of your other posts on this tangent, and noted there that
you insisted on coasting while doing this. Can't say I've tried that, but
I have taken my hands off the bars (from the drops as well as the tops)
while climbing -- no particular reason, just fooling around. In order to
stay in that position I seem to pedal harder, so I guess I am pushing my
upper body up with my legs.

Yes, it all comes down to the position of your CM WRT the vertical
line thru the bottom bracket. When you're climbing, that line is more
likey to pass forward of your CM, so you don't have to shift your mass
backwards to keep yourself from "falling forward" if you try to ride
no-hands.

Putting torque to the pedals produces a reaction torque on the body
which pushes it backwards, countering some of the torque that is
developed by the lever arm of the CM acting about the BB. I insisted
on coasting, just to remove this variable, in the hope that it would
help settle the argument of where the CM was WRT the BB.

Thanks to you and Robin for adding your input. Your experience is
exactly the same as mine.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 18:57:59 -0700 "Mykal"
wrote:

"Jim Adney" wrote in message

The amount of weight on the handlebars is determined by:
Where your center of gravity is WRT a vertical line up from the
crank axis.

The angle of the seat. If the saddle nose angles down, you'll tend
to slide forward, putting more weight on your hands.

The amount of torque you're exerting on the pedals. Torque on the
pedals pushes you back on the bike and takes weight off your hands.

I generally concur with the notion that force exerted on the pedals
will translate to a reduction of weight on the hands, even when the
rider has a substantial forward bend at the hips. With an ideal fit,
when the rider is pedaling at a normal output, weight on the hands
will be minimal. The trick to achieving this fit, as I see it, is to
get the rider's bodyweight centered properly in relation to the crank,
as I think you've pointed out.

The reaction torque from the torque exerted on the pedals will produce
a backwards force on the body regardless of the body position.

I agree with everything else you've said here. I like your phrasing of
the rider's bodyweight WRT the BB. That's an essential part of the
understanding here.

I think saddle setback should be proportional to the stem length, as a
guideline, and that the rider should be able to readily lift his or
her butt from the saddle without any exertion put to the bars. If the
saddle is too far back, then the rider's position over the crank will
be such that the rider must pull on the bars to lift from the saddle.
At the same time, if the saddle is set too far forward, then the rider
will have more weight located over the bars and will suffer the pain
that goes with it. (In both extremes, ride stability is compromised,
but that's another topic.)

I would do the setup somewhat differently. I would suggest putting the
saddle where it belongs to get the CM in the right place, as you
correctly suggested in your first paragraph, and then put the
handlebars in a place that is comfortable given this saddle position.

IMO, the saddle should always be level, not tilted. When writing a
previous response to the OP, I think I guessed the rider tilted the
nose of the saddle down because the saddle is too high and/or too far
back. The tilt would decrease the reach to the bars and the distance
to the crank.

Yes, I believe most people agree that the saddle should be
approximately level, and everyone noticed that this one was WAY wrong.
I don't think we know why it was wrong; it might have been the
previous owner, or it might have been the new owner.

If it's true that the nose was tilted down in an effort to improve the
overall fit, then a good solution at that point may be found by simply
backing up and doing the ft adjustment properly. I'd correct the tilt
and lower the saddle first. Then, if the rider still has too much
weight on the hands, increase the saddle setback and go from there.

I agree completely.

I am at a loss to explain why King George thinks that moving the
saddle forward will reduce the weight on the hands.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------