Biking in Manhattan as a tourist.

Chuck Anderson wrote in
:


would never try to bike in the streets of Rome(that wouldn't be
dangerous, but plain suicidal).


Not to me. I actually had a lot of fun.

http://www.cycletourist.com/Rome/Cyc...s_of_Rome.html

I read your report and I must say I agree with the people who discouraged
you to bike in Rome (and with the one who said that you were very brave!
:-)), which I never did, but I've been there tens of times and experienced
continuous traffic flow (cars and motorbikes, the latter being very
unpredictable) and dreadful road maintenance. But I am happy for you that
you did it anyway and had so much fun!

And how would you compare biking in Rome and in Manhattan?

Jimi wrote:

Chuck Anderson wrote in
:




would never try to bike in the streets of Rome(that wouldn't be
dangerous, but plain suicidal).




Not to me. I actually had a lot of fun.

http://www.cycletourist.com/Rome/Cyc...s_of_Rome.html



I read your report and I must say I agree with the people who discouraged
you to bike in Rome (and with the one who said that you were very brave!
:-)), which I never did, but I've been there tens of times and experienced
continuous traffic flow (cars and motorbikes, the latter being very
unpredictable) and dreadful road maintenance. But I am happy for you that
you did it anyway and had so much fun!

And how would you compare biking in Rome and in Manhattan?


I've only been in NYC once, many years ago, driving a rental car (it was
fierce, but I soon learned to get behind taxis and follow them for as
long as they went the direction I wanted to go - or sometimes a little
further)

I've never ridden there. I live in the Rocky Mountains, and NYC seems
like another country to me (and is as far away). The only major US city
I've ridden in was San Francisco, and that was quite pleasant - no
problems (except for some of the extreme hills). I consider San
Francisco the cleanest and safest major city I know of in the US, ... by
far. Reminds me of the feel of the European cities I've ridden in. (I
grew up near Chicago, but never rode in the city.)

I have ridden in Athens, a very little bit in Naples (from Pompei to the
Naples train station), Rome, Vienna, and across London and back - twice
(Victoria station to Euston station, back to Victoria and once again to
Euston station). That that was a little exciting and strange - my first
time in left side driving and roundabouts - with lots of traffic, but I
still managed to enjoy myself - even took pictures while riding past
Parliament.

My impression (as I mention in my Rome journal) is that European cities
are more friendly to cyclists - more aware of them and their right to be
there. In the US there are many who would like to run you off the road.
They flip you the finger, yell at you to get off the road, and swear at
you. It's unnerving.

On the contrary, I never saw *any* hostility in the European cities I
mentioned above. And I felt quite welcome on the streets of Rome.

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

My wife and I were just there last weekend to celebrate our 35th
anniversary; I was able to get in some bike riding as on past trips to NYC.
After striking out on my first try at a place that doesn't rent in the
winter, I found a rental bike at 15th St. and 6th Ave - a TREK mountain bike
in good condition. I rode only a couple miles on Sat. - enough to avoid
getting a zero. On Sun., though, after Mass and brunch, my wife and two of
our "kids" went to Central Park to get a better look at the gates exhibit we
had seen more briefly on Sat., and I had about 3 hours available to bike
ride.

I headed for the Brooklyn Bridge, but got caught up badly in traffic due to
street closures etc incident to the Chinatown parade I hadn't known about.
Eventually, I got to the bridge and crossed it to Brooklyn and back. It's a
famous sight with a nice view; the downside is that pedestrians use the bike
lane as well as their own, so forget about getting across very fast. (On
two previous trips, I crossed the George Washington Bridge, which is also a
nice view and much faster.)

Then I curled around the southern tip of Manhattan, and took the Hudson
River bikeway to 59th, and then zigzaged my way to Central Park, where there
was no hope of riding due to the crowds enjoying the "exhibit". And then it
was back downtown from there.

The bikeway along the Hudson is an excellent bike route by big city
standards. Since it was a seasonably cold day in Feb., bike traffic wasn't
bad. I suspect on a summer weekend, it would be more dense, something like
I have experienced on Chicago's lakefront paths.

I crossed the entire NYC metro area by bike on my long ride last spring, and
agree with the poster on this thread who said you feel safer on a bike in
the City than in the suburbs.


I also want to comment on the comparison to Paris, as discussed by several
posters. I have biked there also. IMHO, New York is a little safer because
the motor scooters that are ubiquitous in Paris operate very aggresively in
the bike lane (and for that matter, the sidewalks) as well as in the auto
lanes, and are constantly cutting back and forth. My main fear was getting
hit by one of them.


"Jimi" wrote in message
...
I will visit NYC in May and it is my intention is to rent a bike there for
a whole day at least.

But It is not my intention to be killed on the streets, as the guides I am
reading (Lonely Planet mostly) clearly suggest not to try to bike through
Manhattan traffic.

I downloaded a map from the web, and a Greenway that looks very
interesting
is the one that goes all over the Island: would you suggest the whole trip
(or even a part of it) for its sightseen and/or the beauty of the parks
around it? Is it safe (no holes...) and not to much clogged by fellow
bikers? And what are the chances of finding restrooms and places to eat
around the greenway?

And I will bike in Central Park, of course...

Others interesting biking trip?

I would happily hear your suggestions.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:39:11 GMT in rec.bicycles.rides, "Ken
Roberts" wrote:

Dennis wrote
I felt safer cycling across Paris ... than I ever have in any major urban
area in the US.

* Have you actually ridden in New York City specifically? (I think NYC is
the most European of the big U.S. cities, notably in regard to its public
transportation network)

yes. i lived there for about 6 weeks in 1967. i brought a bike
with me and it was my major transportation unless i was going off
manhattan. the one saving grace of having a bike was that even
then midtown was gridlocked several times a week at mid-day.

and san francisco has public transport that is far better than
nyc, and a city that is far more european in feel. have you ever
been to europe? it sure doesn't sound like you have.

* Did you actually use the New York City Cycling Map? (instead of like most
long-distance touring cyclists, just "winging it" and not bothering to check
ahead for local bicycling resources)

there was no such thing in 1967.

* Did you know and use assertive "vehicular" riding strategies in NYC?
(instead of practicing traffic-avoidance like mentioned in Paris)

of course. even the pedestrians in nyc are assertive!

* Did you try riding in NYC on a quiet weekend morning, or a crowded weekday
rush-hour? (how does that compare with the day and time you chose to ride
across Paris)

nowhwere near as nice. nyc neighborhood architecture simply
can't rival that of most european cities. their cities are so
much more livable.

i never felt really threatened in nyc, but didn't spend much time
in harlem or bed-stuy, the ghettos then, before the south bronx
had deteriorated so badly. there were, however, neighborhoods
where i simply got the gut feeling that it wasn't a good place to
be, and i got out of them quickly.

* Did you experience the excitement and energy of the greatest city in North
America? (or did you just manage to cycle "across" it like with Paris) How
many days did you actually stay? Did you ride on Broadway and Wall Street?
across the Brooklyn Bridge? What neighborhoods did you visit? etc.

i'm not going to belabor it, but i worked in the east village and
in the garment district for several weeks as a temp. i spent
time in the upper east side, the lower east side including the
east village, greenwich village, and central park west. i spent
a lot of time in museums, galleries, theaters, and concerts.

i now know that i can see art, artifacts, and performances just
as good or better (and a lot cheaper!) in many other places.
being a small town boy raised on the edge of wilderness, i knew
that such a manic place full of so damn many rude & pushy people
was not the place for me. even most of the west coast was too
urban for my taste, so i came home to alaska.

cities are great places to visit for some cultural things, but i
wouldn't want to live in them. and there are many cities that
offer more and better things than new york. sorry.

What cycling in Paris comes even close to the spectacular view riding the
south sidewalk across the GWB, then south on Riverside Drive on a quiet
weekend morning? What comes even close to the Central Park 10km loop? to
the southern section of the West Side Greenway?

almost anywhere in paris, but your viewpoint is like that saul
steinberg new yorker cartoon cover that shows everything on
manhattan very large, the distant shore of new jersey as small,
and "the coast" as a tiny sliver in the far, far distance. you
are so convinced that where you live is the only place in the
world. such provincialism!

i live in a scenic small town. ( see www.juneaphotos.com ) jean
shepherd was here with a crew from pbs, and i took him on a hike
in the mountains right behind town. his comment was that mother
nature had no taste, it was overdone, just toooo pretty.

if i wanted to be in a scenic urban area, i'd pick edinburgh over
new york any day. in the US, i'd pick portland or san francisco.

Chuck Anderson wrote
In the US there are many who ... flip you the finger,
yell at you to get off the road

That may fit many regions and cities of the U.S., but riding and skating in
New York City, it's hard to remember a time when that's happened to me. Sure
I've stories about that kinda stuff in other regions of the U.S. like Texas.
Out in the suburbs of NYC on busy roads sometimes Yes; but No on the many
quieter residential streets. I find the frequency of insults is higher in
more rural areas like 1.5 hours out from NYC, maybe like one irritated horn
honk or yell per 24 hours of riding. I usually wave and smile -- in America
everyone's entitled to express their opinion.

I suppose if I did something impolite like taking up a lane of traffic
riding on a major avenue during rush hour, I'd get some negative gestures --
that's why I'd use the NYC Cycling Map and ride on the avenues that had bike
lanes during rush hour. In some places the bike lane would be blocked by
double-parked cars and would go too close to opening car doors, so sometimes
I would actually ride near the bike lane, rather than literally in the
bike lane.

In those cases my experience is that most NYC drivers understand that you
gotta do what you gotta do, to deal with what you encounter on the streets.
Because that's what they're doing themselves -- just trying to get somewhere
somehow using the streets. A bicyclist riding predictably and politely is
one of the smaller obstacles and hazards for them.

Whatever "hostility" some NYC drivers may feel is fundamentally not against
bicyclists -- it's against anything that's in front of them on the street.
Most New Yorkers are too busy to take the time to insult bicyclists.

Ken

Dennis wrote
i lived there for about 6 weeks in 1967.

Thanks for sharing details about your experience. But New York City has
changed in the 37 years since then.

I remember twenty years ago after my first visit to London and Paris, coming
back and being stunned by how inferior New York felt. Turns out there where
other people who also felt that -- people with the money and power to do
something about it. And they did do something. Ten years later things were
already better, and now after twenty years of change there are
bicyclist/skaters like me who are openly enthusiastic about New York City.

san francisco has public transport that is far better than nyc

I yield to SF, and now claim NYC rather as in the top two "most Euro" big
cities in the U.S. Anyway the spread and density of the multiple train
systems in the metropolitan NYC area is great for bicycling. It allows me to
set up fun one-way bike/skate tours between different train stations, or get
access far out to beautiful rural loops. Then there's the ferry boats,
which enable city cycling adventures like
http://roberts-1.com/bikehudson/r/r/verr_gwb/map
I notice that the photos for that tour show several fun -- and ridable --
public spaces that did not exist in 1967.

nyc neighborhood architecture simply can't rival that of most european
cities.

I happily agree that big European cities have a higher concentration of
obvious statues and old ornate facades than New York (though if you care
much about that sort of thing, NYC has plenty, if you get the right
guidebook for it).

But I focus more on the people and the riding and the skating.

The obvious thing that NYC lacks relative to some Euro cities is a
pedestrian zone with streets closed to cars. But that gets to my feeling
about Paris: It's great for pedestrian tourism, but New York has better
bicycle tours.

such provincialism! Have you ever been to europe?
it sure doesn't sound like you have.

Have you ever used http://groups.google.com to search the newsgroup
archives? You could try doing a search of my name together with various
western and northern European countries in the archives of these newsgroups:
rec.bicycles.rides, rec.sport.skating.inline, rec.skiing.nordic

Dennis wrote
i live in a scenic small town.

I do not.
I really _like_ being around big cities. Not for the restaurants or museums
or statues. I like them for their well-paved streets and sidewalks --
varied and exciting and fun to glide on. And for their energetic people --
walkers, car drivers, bicyclists. And their buildings and parks and bridges
and trains -- varied and exciting.

Ken
_____________________________________
Dennis P. Harris wrote
Ken Roberts wrote:
Dennis wrote
I felt safer cycling across Paris ... than I ever have in any major
urban
area in the US.

* Have you actually ridden in New York City specifically? (I think NYC
is
the most European of the big U.S. cities, notably in regard to its
public
transportation network)

yes. i lived there for about 6 weeks in 1967. i brought a bike
with me and it was my major transportation unless i was going off
manhattan. the one saving grace of having a bike was that even
then midtown was gridlocked several times a week at mid-day.

and san francisco has public transport that is far better than
nyc, and a city that is far more european in feel. have you ever
been to europe? it sure doesn't sound like you have.

* Did you actually use the New York City Cycling Map? (instead of like
most
long-distance touring cyclists, just "winging it" and not bothering to
check
ahead for local bicycling resources)

there was no such thing in 1967.

* Did you know and use assertive "vehicular" riding strategies in NYC?
(instead of practicing traffic-avoidance like mentioned in Paris)

of course. even the pedestrians in nyc are assertive!

* Did you try riding in NYC on a quiet weekend morning, or a crowded
weekday
rush-hour? (how does that compare with the day and time you chose to
ride
across Paris)

nowhwere near as nice. nyc neighborhood architecture simply
can't rival that of most european cities. their cities are so
much more livable.

i never felt really threatened in nyc, but didn't spend much time
in harlem or bed-stuy, the ghettos then, before the south bronx
had deteriorated so badly. there were, however, neighborhoods
where i simply got the gut feeling that it wasn't a good place to
be, and i got out of them quickly.

* Did you experience the excitement and energy of the greatest city in
North
America? (or did you just manage to cycle "across" it like with Paris)
How
many days did you actually stay? Did you ride on Broadway and Wall
Street?
across the Brooklyn Bridge? What neighborhoods did you visit? etc.

i'm not going to belabor it, but i worked in the east village and
in the garment district for several weeks as a temp. i spent
time in the upper east side, the lower east side including the
east village, greenwich village, and central park west. i spent
a lot of time in museums, galleries, theaters, and concerts.

i now know that i can see art, artifacts, and performances just
as good or better (and a lot cheaper!) in many other places.
being a small town boy raised on the edge of wilderness, i knew
that such a manic place full of so damn many rude & pushy people
was not the place for me. even most of the west coast was too
urban for my taste, so i came home to alaska.

cities are great places to visit for some cultural things, but i
wouldn't want to live in them. and there are many cities that
offer more and better things than new york. sorry.

What cycling in Paris comes even close to the spectacular view riding
the
south sidewalk across the GWB, then south on Riverside Drive on a quiet
weekend morning? What comes even close to the Central Park 10km loop?
to
the southern section of the West Side Greenway?

almost anywhere in paris, but your viewpoint is like that saul
steinberg new yorker cartoon cover that shows everything on
manhattan very large, the distant shore of new jersey as small,
and "the coast" as a tiny sliver in the far, far distance. you
are so convinced that where you live is the only place in the
world. such provincialism!

i live in a scenic small town. ( see www.juneaphotos.com ) jean
shepherd was here with a crew from pbs, and i took him on a hike
in the mountains right behind town. his comment was that mother
nature had no taste, it was overdone, just toooo pretty.

if i wanted to be in a scenic urban area, i'd pick edinburgh over
new york any day. in the US, i'd pick portland or san francisco.

Jimi wrote
I would never try to bike in the streets of Rome
(that wouldn't be dangerous, but plain suicidal).

I once thought that bicycling in southern Manhattan must be dangerous. My
bicycle was in my grad student office in northern Manhatttan, and I was
comfortable riding on the local neighborhood streets around there, and I
enjoyed the Central Park loop during lunch hour. But never below 72nd
Street, which I knew from walking visits were full of heavy traffic and
aggressive drivers -- obviously dangerous.

Years later one Saturday morning, Sharon and Tony and I dared to ride our
bikes on south below 72nd. What happened to us on those dangerous streets
was Nothing. The traffic lanes were mostly empty -- I guess all the car
drivers had gone back home to New Jersey. We had a fun. We rode on Fifth
Avenue and Broadway, we visited the "arc de triomphe" of Washington Square
and Wall Street. Rode out to the middle of the Brooklyn Bridge and back. Put
our bikes on the Staten Island Ferry.

Why had we been scared for so long? Now I look forward to opportunities to
ride and skate in southern Manhattan, especially on weekends.

And New York either, where, I'll stick to Greenways.

Sounds like a good plan for you, if you don't have the skills and
experienced judgment for riding on roads and streets.

But I've sometimes found myself trying new things in new places.

Like four years ago I thought that riding a bicycle at night was dangerous
and "suicidal".

Then I was in Parma in Italy, and I saw that lots of people were out riding
their bicycles on the streets at night. So I got out there myself on my
bicycle. (When in Parma, do as the Parmans?) What happened to me was
Nothing. Except that it was lots of fun riding around the city at night.

I took that lesson home with me, and skated on some major streets of
Manhattan at night. (Actually the streets I was on were not really dark --
there's many light sources).

Jimi wrote
I have nothing against New Yorkers, or New Yorkers driving a car ...

Yes, you were clear about that -- it was not you but the guidebook. (but I
like how you spice it up with words like "killed" and "suicidal")

Don't worry -- I've heard lots worse about bicycling in New York City from
ignorant Americans.

Ken

I have ridden in: Seattle, Boston, San Francisco, Denver, Philly, ... etc.

They all are bad. But, at least the western cities seem to expect to see a
bicyclist.

I absolutely hate riding on bike paths. There is nothing more irritating
than someone riding by me with their rental bike and rental helmet ( helmet
tied to handlebars ).

I have been to NY many times, I've seen many cyclists.

They must know something.



"Chuck Anderson" wrote in message
...
Jimi wrote:

Chuck Anderson wrote in
:


would never try to bike in the streets of Rome(that wouldn't be
dangerous, but plain suicidal).


Not to me. I actually had a lot of fun.

http://www.cycletourist.com/Rome/Cyc...s_of_Rome.html


I read your report and I must say I agree with the people who discouraged
you to bike in Rome (and with the one who said that you were very brave!
:-)), which I never did, but I've been there tens of times and experienced
continuous traffic flow (cars and motorbikes, the latter being very
unpredictable) and dreadful road maintenance. But I am happy for you that
you did it anyway and had so much fun!
And how would you compare biking in Rome and in Manhattan?


I've only been in NYC once, many years ago, driving a rental car (it was
fierce, but I soon learned to get behind taxis and follow them for as long
as they went the direction I wanted to go - or sometimes a little further)

I've never ridden there. I live in the Rocky Mountains, and NYC seems like
another country to me (and is as far away). The only major US city I've
ridden in was San Francisco, and that was quite pleasant - no problems
(except for some of the extreme hills). I consider San Francisco the
cleanest and safest major city I know of in the US, ... by far. Reminds me
of the feel of the European cities I've ridden in. (I grew up near
Chicago, but never rode in the city.)

I have ridden in Athens, a very little bit in Naples (from Pompei to the
Naples train station), Rome, Vienna, and across London and back - twice
(Victoria station to Euston station, back to Victoria and once again to
Euston station). That that was a little exciting and strange - my first
time in left side driving and roundabouts - with lots of traffic, but I
still managed to enjoy myself - even took pictures while riding past
Parliament.

My impression (as I mention in my Rome journal) is that European cities
are more friendly to cyclists - more aware of them and their right to be
there. In the US there are many who would like to run you off the road.
They flip you the finger, yell at you to get off the road, and swear at
you. It's unnerving.

On the contrary, I never saw *any* hostility in the European cities I
mentioned above. And I felt quite welcome on the streets of Rome.

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
http://www.CycleTourist.com
Integrity is obvious.
The lack of it is common.
*****************************

What cycling in Paris comes even close to the spectacular view riding the
south sidewalk across the GWB, then south on Riverside Drive on a quiet
weekend morning?

Is this route on the upper or lower span of the GWB? I live in bergen county
NJ and was looking to take a ride over the bridge into NYC.

What comes even close to the Central Park 10km loop? to
the southern section of the West Side Greenway?