Making left turn -- how far left is left?

Dear rec.bicycles.misc:
Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight
downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the
options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for
San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm
roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm
about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands,
didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that). Extra special complexity
-- one of the new USPS 2 1/2 ton dual role collection/delivery vans is
smack dab on the right while the "letter carrier" is sorting out
parcels, flats and envelopes into the appropriate tubs.
White SUV (big one) with mom and boy, roars in for a right turn all
of five inches from me, and she's MAD about having to stop, or about
nearly rear-ending me, or both. Mom immediately berates me for not
going through the light -- to which my reply was "At THIS
intersection?" And then I decide to clam up, more or less, because the
road isn't usenet, and with her kid in the vehicle with her, Mom can
NOT afford to be wrong. Ever. Any protestation will lead to escalation.
Besides, who am I to say I'm perfect? Also, it's not the greatest
neighborhood economically, so the usual drivers of shiny new SUVs with
kids are heading to/from the medical offices nearby.
Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all
the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18
inches from the double yellow.
I thought the "Have a nice rest of your life" was a bit gratuitious
on her part, but with an attitude like that, I'm glad I didn't get into
it with her (see above about how she can't afford to be wrong, because
she's in the presence of her child).
So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a
somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV,
I've got to ask, how far left is "left?" Especially at an intersection
where the left turns from the perpendicular lane are often taken
sharply by folks trying to get into the 7-11 parking lot in one smooth
manuveur?

Robert Leone

On 8 Oct 2005 08:20:04 -0700, wrote:

Dear rec.bicycles.misc:
Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight
downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the
options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for
San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm
roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm
about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands,
didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that). Extra special complexity
-- one of the new USPS 2 1/2 ton dual role collection/delivery vans is
smack dab on the right while the "letter carrier" is sorting out
parcels, flats and envelopes into the appropriate tubs.
White SUV (big one) with mom and boy, roars in for a right turn all
of five inches from me, and she's MAD about having to stop, or about
nearly rear-ending me, or both. Mom immediately berates me for not
going through the light -- to which my reply was "At THIS
intersection?" And then I decide to clam up, more or less, because the
road isn't usenet, and with her kid in the vehicle with her, Mom can
NOT afford to be wrong. Ever. Any protestation will lead to escalation.
Besides, who am I to say I'm perfect? Also, it's not the greatest
neighborhood economically, so the usual drivers of shiny new SUVs with
kids are heading to/from the medical offices nearby.
Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all
the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18
inches from the double yellow.
I thought the "Have a nice rest of your life" was a bit gratuitious
on her part, but with an attitude like that, I'm glad I didn't get into
it with her (see above about how she can't afford to be wrong, because
she's in the presence of her child).
So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a
somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV,
I've got to ask, how far left is "left?" Especially at an intersection
where the left turns from the perpendicular lane are often taken
sharply by folks trying to get into the 7-11 parking lot in one smooth
manuveur?

Robert Leone

Here's what you do. Take your water bottle and take a little sip. While
smiling and gesturing, "accidently" squirt her through the open window,
causing the child to laugh and clap with glee (after all it's all about the
child, right?), then apologize profusely and smile some more and pedal off
with a hearty hi-ho and a wave. ;-)

jj

Dear jj:
Tempting. But is violence, even slapstick violence, the answer?
Especially in front of a child who may have just been to see a medical
specialist about a chronic illness? Or just had a tooth extracted?
Yeah, maybe I'm taking that "sensitive male" thing too far...

Robert Leone

wrote:
Dear jj:
Tempting. But is violence, even slapstick violence, the answer?
Especially in front of a child who may have just been to see a medical
specialist about a chronic illness? Or just had a tooth extracted?
Yeah, maybe I'm taking that "sensitive male" thing too far...

Robert Leone

The other thing you can do if you are wearing dark glasses, is just
turn, stare at her, and say nothing, with the most emotionless
expression you can manage. Continue to stare at her. Don't look away.
Makes most people nervous. Makes some people really nervous! Something
about not being able to see your eyes...

wrote ...
Dear rec.bicycles.misc:
Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight
downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the
options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for
San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm
roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm
about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands,
didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that). Extra special complexity
-- one of the new USPS 2 1/2 ton dual role collection/delivery vans is
smack dab on the right while the "letter carrier" is sorting out
parcels, flats and envelopes into the appropriate tubs.
White SUV (big one) with mom and boy, roars in for a right turn all
of five inches from me, and she's MAD about having to stop, or about
nearly rear-ending me, or both. Mom immediately berates me for not
going through the light -- to which my reply was "At THIS
intersection?" And then I decide to clam up, more or less, because the
road isn't usenet, and with her kid in the vehicle with her, Mom can
NOT afford to be wrong. Ever. Any protestation will lead to escalation.
Besides, who am I to say I'm perfect? Also, it's not the greatest
neighborhood economically, so the usual drivers of shiny new SUVs with
kids are heading to/from the medical offices nearby.
Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all
the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18
inches from the double yellow.
I thought the "Have a nice rest of your life" was a bit gratuitious
on her part, but with an attitude like that, I'm glad I didn't get into
it with her (see above about how she can't afford to be wrong, because
she's in the presence of her child).
So, now that I've done venting about what was said/not said in a
somewhat safer forum than wedged between a traffic stop and an SUV,
I've got to ask, how far left is "left?" Especially at an intersection
where the left turns from the perpendicular lane are often taken
sharply by folks trying to get into the 7-11 parking lot in one smooth
manuveur?

Robert Leone


18 inches from the yellow center line sounds close enough to me, that would
put your left handlebar less than a foot from the center line. If Mom can't
fit her vehicle between you and the USPS truck then her choices are to 1)
stop and wait for the light to turn or 2) get a smaller vehicle.

I had a talk with the local sheriff's department a while back, and I was
told that yelling unwanted advice or rude comments to other road users the
way Mom did can be construed as either harassment or disorderly conduct,
depending on the exact circumstances. Whether or not you can get the local
police and courts to take any action is probably a different story. Still,
you might be able to rattle Mom's cage a little by pulling out a pencil and
paper, writing down her license number, and offering to see what the local
police have to say about your behavior and hers.
--
mark

wrote:
Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight
downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the
options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for
San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm
roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm
about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands,
didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that).

You aren't required to signal if you need both hands to control your bike.
I know I wouldn't try to brake hard with only one hand.

Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all
the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18
inches from the double yellow.

(a) Who says they "go all the way to the left"?

(b) It sounds like you were pretty much "all the way to the left" to me. If
she can't pass you safely, then maybe you should have been further right
(taking the lane).

Turning left at a T intersection like that, I'd position myself in the left
tire track of the lane that allows both left and right turns. If there
isn't such a lane, then I'd position myself in the right tire track of the
right-most left-turn lane. FWIW, YMMV, etc.
--
Darin McGrew, , http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, , http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"How long is this Beta guy going to keep testing our stuff?"

"Darin McGrew" wrote in message
...

Turning left at a T intersection like that, I'd position myself in the
left
tire track of the lane that allows both left and right turns. If there
isn't such a lane, then I'd position myself in the right tire track of the
right-most left-turn lane. FWIW, YMMV, etc.

IIRC, that's what "Effective Cycling" says about that.

Darin McGrew writes:

You aren't required to signal if you need both hands to control your bike.

I tried to track down something that says this in the California
Vehicle Code once, but I couldn't find it, even though it makes
perfect sense to me. Do you have a reference?
--
Ben Pfaff
email:
web: http://benpfaff.org

I wrote:
You aren't required to signal if you need both hands to control your bike.

Ben Pfaff wrote:
I tried to track down something that says this in the California
Vehicle Code once, but I couldn't find it, even though it makes
perfect sense to me. Do you have a reference?

Hmm... I couldn't find it either.

I guess that's just part of the "cycling folklore" that's squirreled away
in my brain. Or maybe it's some obscure legal precedent based on the
"except those provisions which by their very nature can have no
application" language.
--
Darin McGrew, , http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, , http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Warning: Dates in the calendar are closer than they appear."

In article ,
Darin McGrew wrote:

wrote:
Here's the setup. Making left turn at signaled intersection. Slight
downhill to intersection, then flat. It's a T- intersection, the
options are left, right or Rubio's Fish Taco's straight ahead (#1 for
San Diego denizens). Postal collection boxes on corner at right. I'm
roaring down for a left turn, but the light turns yellow while I'm
about 25 or 20 feet away from the intersection, so I brake (both hands,
didn't signal the stop there, my bad on that).

You aren't required to signal if you need both hands to control your bike.
I know I wouldn't try to brake hard with only one hand.

Mom the driver then points out that cyclists turning left go "all
the way to the left." I look down -- center line of bicycle is about 18
inches from the double yellow.

(a) Who says they "go all the way to the left"?

Well, the local vehicle code (and I strongly suspect California's is
similar) says that the general rule for cyclists is this: if there's a
dedicated left-turn lane, you should be in the right side of the lane
(the usual "ride to the right" rule that cyclists default to). If there
is no dedicated left-turn lane, a left-turning cyclist is expected to
position to the left.

Now, the cyclist in this case was, within any sensible definition,
positioned well to the left. At 18" from the double line, her bike was
pretty darned far to the left.

(b) It sounds like you were pretty much "all the way to the left" to me. If
she can't pass you safely, then maybe you should have been further right
(taking the lane).

Turning left at a T intersection like that, I'd position myself in the left
tire track of the lane that allows both left and right turns. If there
isn't such a lane, then I'd position myself in the right tire track of the
right-most left-turn lane. FWIW, YMMV, etc.

That is the correct behaviour, as I have been assured by an ICBC claims
adjuster*

*the word of a claims adjuster might not sound like much, but my
jurisdiction has a government-run monopoly auto insurance company.
They're not only the insurance providers, they're also a one-stop
claim-management system, and they usually have the last word on
accidents unless you choose to resort to the courts.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos