Question about brakes

- Frank Krygowski / Mon, 19 May 2014 04:39:53 +0200


Linear (V) brakes do indeed wear rims faster and modern rim
sides are thinner as well.

It's a real problem for some riders. Others, not.


Andrew (who owns a bike shop) has a good point, as usual. Rim wear is a
problem for only some people.

Well, I didn't want to be unpolite by saying I don't have a
rim tree in my garden ...

On one side, the bike I use now is old enough to avoid
being stolen or vandalized (which is a big problem here),
but it gets some issues now:

- some bearings won't do it very long
- chain blades need replacement,
but fitiing ones seem not to be available any more
so the whole front unit would have to be replaced
- rim wear becomes problematic
- frame could be bigger anyways
('one size fits all short people')

If I do the math, it should be used as a backup bike.


My question was, if cable operated disc brakes are
as bad as they are described in some magazines (where the
forum people get their wisdom from) - which was answered,
obviously they have downsides, but they work if adjusted.


I've been on an off-road ride with a mountain biker who had a rim
sidewall blow out. He loved riding muddy, steep off-road terrain. That
type of riding tends to grind away rims.

Of course - heavy use wears-off material.


Equipment choice should depend on service conditions. Perhaps you
should tell us what your riding conditions are like.

Good ones ... ;o)

No extreme stuff - city, landscape, day-tours (not with heavy load).


jk



--
no sig

On 19/05/2014 12:34, Jakob Krieger wrote:

Equipment choice should depend on service conditions. Perhaps you
should tell us what your riding conditions are like.

Good ones ... ;o)

No extreme stuff - city, landscape, day-tours (not with heavy load).

How far do you ride, and how much do you use your brakes?

When I did 8000K/year, rim replacement was a bit tedious, and I didn't
use my brakes very much at all.

Friend who rides to work a similar distance in a city obviously uses his
a lot more, and consequently wears his rims out a lot more - he's
looking at getting a disk braked bike. (hydraulic).

I like hydraulic brakes - I've had Magura rim brakes for 17 years on the
road tandem, and they're still great. Hoses are still fine. That doesn't
get that much mileage, and the rims are very stout, so rim wear isn't a
big deal.

I've got some deore hydraulic disks on one bike which seem to work well
enough, and the mountain tandem has some high end hope disks which also
work but need a bit more looking after.

I dislike dealing with cables, I hate adjusting pads on V brakes, and I
hate it even more on cantis. So that's another really good reason to get
disks.

If you're just looking for a bike with straight bars, get something with
deore or better Shimano brakes. They'll work, are cost effective and are
widely available. Mineral oil, so no fluid replacement needed.

And go to a different shop - sounds like the one you went to doesn't
know how to set things up.

On 5/19/2014 7:34 AM, Jakob Krieger wrote:
- Frank Krygowski wrote:

Equipment choice should depend on service conditions. Perhaps you
should tell us what your riding conditions are like.

Good ones ... ;o)

No extreme stuff - city, landscape, day-tours (not with heavy load).

If that's the case, I'd be surprised if you need to replace rims even
once in ten years.

My use is similar, but with some longer touring thrown in. I've
replaced rims only rarely, and never had a rim sidewall failure.
Standard rim brakes are fine for me. And I prefer them, since they
require no proprietary parts, and are very easy to maintain and
troubleshoot, even on extended tours.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, May 19, 2014 5:34:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/19/2014 7:34 AM, Jakob Krieger wrote:

- Frank Krygowski wrote:



Equipment choice should depend on service conditions. Perhaps you

should tell us what your riding conditions are like.



Good ones ... ;o)



No extreme stuff - city, landscape, day-tours (not with heavy load).



If that's the case, I'd be surprised if you need to replace rims even

once in ten years.



My use is similar, but with some longer touring thrown in. I've

replaced rims only rarely, and never had a rim sidewall failure.

Standard rim brakes are fine for me. And I prefer them, since they

require no proprietary parts, and are very easy to maintain and

troubleshoot, even on extended tours.



--

- Frank Krygowski

It largely depends whether you ride a lot in the wet and downhill. If not you are right. On my road bikes I get about 20000 km out of a rim. On my ATB's about 6000 km. On my bad weather ATB I got carbide (English?) rims (Rigida Grizzly CSS) combined with Magura hydraulic rim brakes. You can't see any wear after 5 years of bad weather riding (about 5000 km). That was a worthwhile investment. That is another choice. The problem is that you don't have many ATB frames or front suspension forks with brake bosses. Only the very lower end ones. For the OP for his kind of riding mechanical disk brakes is a good choice. Get the Avid BB7 ones. I think they are the best and for a reasonable price.

Lou

Lou Holtman writes:

On Monday, May 19, 2014 5:34:43 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/19/2014 7:34 AM, Jakob Krieger wrote:

- Frank Krygowski wrote:



Equipment choice should depend on service conditions. Perhaps you

should tell us what your riding conditions are like.



Good ones ... ;o)



No extreme stuff - city, landscape, day-tours (not with heavy load).



If that's the case, I'd be surprised if you need to replace rims even

once in ten years.



My use is similar, but with some longer touring thrown in. I've

replaced rims only rarely, and never had a rim sidewall failure.

Standard rim brakes are fine for me. And I prefer them, since they

require no proprietary parts, and are very easy to maintain and

troubleshoot, even on extended tours.



--

- Frank Krygowski

It largely depends whether you ride a lot in the wet and downhill. If
not you are right.

True enough. In thirty years, I've only worn out one rim. That
occurred over a rather short duration, during a rare rainy episode when
my daily commute featured a mile-long 8% descent at night. In those
conditions I always outran my lights, so would use the brakes, in gritty
conditions, far more than otherwise.

--
Joe Riel

On 5/18/2014 7:39 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Andrew (who owns a bike shop) has a good point, as usual. Rim wear is a
problem for only some people.

I've been on an off-road ride with a mountain biker who had a rim
sidewall blow out. He loved riding muddy, steep off-road terrain. That
type of riding tends to grind away rims.

OTOH, I've never known any of my road-riding friends to have that type
of failure. Road riding involves much less heavy braking, and much less
abrasive material in contact with the rim, so rim wear is rarely a big
problem on the road.

Rare, I agree, but it does happen. I had a rear-rim blowout on my
(neglected) commute bike - daily rides, rain or shine, and only cleaned
once or twice a year. That bike is 20 years old, and I've re-rimmed it
twice now on both wheels - the first time after the blowout. The rear
rim failure was not that dramatic - even though the rim sidewall wrapped
itself around the seatstay, I just skidded to a stop - but I wouldn't
want to try that with a front rim, so I'm more careful now.

I've also heard trusted eye-witness accounts of another such failure on
a touring bike; Dunno what conditions it was used in or how long. It
does make me think about a disk brake bike, but probably more for
novelty than need; I can re-rim a wheel pretty easily.

Mark J.

On 5/17/2014 2:41 PM, Jakob Krieger wrote:

On the other hand, I can't just imagine what is bad
about disc breaks operated via cable (unless you let
it rust). Is there a design flaw, or what is the
cyclists' aversion against them about?

Does anyone in real live drive with such brakes
and can tell me honestly about it?

I am not a downhill racer, and V-brakes would do
from the point of performance, but they destroy
the rims which I see as essential parts, not as
wear-off crap.

Mechanical disc brakes are fine. They require less maintenance and stop
just as well as hydraulic brakes. They require a bit more effort than
hydraulic brakes.

The first bicycle I saw with hydraulic brakes was marketed by Sears back
in the mid-1970s. It was a direct response to JC Penney marketing
bicycles with a rear disc brake. Finally, someone copied both of these
vendors and combined the two technologies.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o197/Georgeediii/hydrolic002.jpg
http://www.chipcom.net/bikes/jcpenney.jpg

Disc brakes are now appearing on more and more road bikes because of the
reason you stated. Of course another advantage is that disc brakes
aren't so dependent on the wheel being true, but this could be good or
bad since for many the on;y reason they know their wheel needs truing is
when the rim is hitting the brake pad.

- Clive George / Mon, 19 May 2014 15:15:20 +0200


Equipment choice should depend on service conditions. Perhaps you
should tell us what your riding conditions are like.

Good ones ... ;o)

No extreme stuff - city, landscape, day-tours (not with heavy load).

How far do you ride, and how much do you use your brakes?

Well, even ordinary rides in the city sum up to a lot,
30 km are nothing. So it is easy to under-estimate
everyday's use (can't tell how many kilometers of mileage
I do per year, I don't always use the 'computer')

And there are obligative bike-ways (many in bad shape) and
lanes often blocked by free-style parking fellow citicens,
and there are these people wearing funny hats who have
very strict concepts of sustaining order - specially
they like a lot bothering non-motorists
(they seem to feel superior in their state-owned BMW cars).

In other words, city driving here needs a lot of braking.



And go to a different shop - sounds like the one you went to doesn't
know how to set things up.

This is what I did today - I visited two other shops.
One was the sports house of a department store chain,
and the other one was one I used to rate as a quality
shop ... at both places (also the 'better' one)
most bikes had loose hub bearings with way too much
of clearance, maladjusted brakes (wheel moved in hub
when approaching the pads to the disc), and I saw
the same cheap components from low-priced bikes to
advertised 'high-enders'.


So I won't buy a model of such composition (which I
didn't intend anyways, but I didn't think they are built
this shabby).



About brakes and other components, I'll take a look at
their mechanical overall picture ... and stop reading
consumers' forums ... promise.



jk



--
no sig

- sms / Mon, 19 May 2014 19:26:09 +0200


Mechanical disc brakes are fine. They require less maintenance and stop
just as well as hydraulic brakes. They require a bit more effort than
hydraulic brakes.

So thanks.

Everybody seems to approve that cable actuated disc brakes are
not bad by principle (in contrary of what I read in several
forums). So I'll look what is available for my yielded budget
and keep off cheap hydraulical models (precision has its price,
so does appropreate material - and I am sure that an infusion
tether doesn't work well re-purposed as a high-pressure
hydraulic circuit).


The first bicycle I saw with hydraulic brakes was marketed by Sears back
in the mid-1970s. It was a direct response to JC Penney marketing
bicycles with a rear disc brake. Finally, someone copied both of these
vendors and combined the two technologies.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o197/Georgeediii/hydrolic002.jpg

dead link

http://www.chipcom.net/bikes/jcpenney.jpg

Wow, this is machinery! Reminds me to the UAZ ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:У�З-3151_на_параде_фото1.JPG

(nice car if you don't mind gas bills - strongest mechanic
I ever seen except on rails)


Disc brakes are now appearing on more and more road bikes because of the
reason you stated. Of course another advantage is that disc brakes
aren't so dependent on the wheel being true, but this could be good or
bad since for many the on;y reason they know their wheel needs truing is
when the rim is hitting the brake pad.

I like round wheels because they roll well, so I keep them true.


And I still don't understand how anybody comes up to the idea
to turn a vital part - yet made of the light metal used for
'pull-open' coke-can-tops - into a wear-off part for another
vital function.

On the 'racing-bike'-style things I had as a boy, with steel rims
and hardly any delay of motion whenn pulling the lever, wear-off
wasn't a problem. But the V-system, good as it works, always
reminds me that there is one welding point which I sense more
and more, and which will disintegrate in my life-time - in this
case may be just very short before end of my life-time.


jk




--
no sig

On 5/19/2014 4:06 PM, Jakob Krieger wrote:
- sms / Mon, 19 May 2014 19:26:09 +0200


Mechanical disc brakes are fine. They require less maintenance and stop
just as well as hydraulic brakes. They require a bit more effort than
hydraulic brakes.

So thanks.

Everybody seems to approve that cable actuated disc brakes are
not bad by principle (in contrary of what I read in several
forums). So I'll look what is available for my yielded budget
and keep off cheap hydraulical models (precision has its price,
so does appropreate material - and I am sure that an infusion
tether doesn't work well re-purposed as a high-pressure
hydraulic circuit).


The first bicycle I saw with hydraulic brakes was marketed by Sears back
in the mid-1970s. It was a direct response to JC Penney marketing
bicycles with a rear disc brake. Finally, someone copied both of these
vendors and combined the two technologies.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o197/Georgeediii/hydrolic002.jpg

dead link

http://www.chipcom.net/bikes/jcpenney.jpg

Wow, this is machinery! Reminds me to the UAZ ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:У�З-3151_на_параде_фото1.JPG

(nice car if you don't mind gas bills - strongest mechanic
I ever seen except on rails)


Disc brakes are now appearing on more and more road bikes because of the
reason you stated. Of course another advantage is that disc brakes
aren't so dependent on the wheel being true, but this could be good or
bad since for many the on;y reason they know their wheel needs truing is
when the rim is hitting the brake pad.

I like round wheels because they roll well, so I keep them true.


And I still don't understand how anybody comes up to the idea
to turn a vital part - yet made of the light metal used for
'pull-open' coke-can-tops - into a wear-off part for another
vital function.

Because rims, even aluminum rims, didn't use to be as thin as they are
now and the wear was mostly in the softer pad material.

I have a wheel with a drum brake for my tandem though it hasn't been on
the tandem in a very long time.