Reducing bicycle chain service to zero

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:15:38 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

To get rid of the bicycle chain.

That's a problem solved quite well by the Gates Belt Drive. It does however require a frame alteration -- a split rear triangle -- that adds weight and does nothing for the intrinsic strength and longevity of the bike.

There are other ways of solving the bicycle chain's problems without unintended side effects. For instance, the chain's short life and ferocious demands for love and attention are easily solved by running the chain for its entire life on the factory lube and inside a Hebie Chainglider. See
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6813.0
where I describe just such an experiment.

Andre Jute
Lateral thinking

Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:15:38 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

To get rid of the bicycle chain.

That's a problem solved quite well by the Gates Belt Drive. It does however require a frame alteration -- a split rear triangle -- that adds weight and does nothing for the intrinsic strength and longevity of the bike.

There are other ways of solving the bicycle chain's problems without unintended side effects. For instance, the chain's short life and ferocious demands for love and attention are easily solved by running the chain for its entire life on the factory lube and inside a Hebie Chainglider. See

What's the impediment to using sealed chains, as are used on most motorcycles?
The oldest motorcycle chain in my stable is pushing 60k miles (not km) and is
still quite serviceable. I've been far from dilligent about cleaning and oiling.
Indeed, oil is unhelpful, the links are sealed and oil just attracts dust.

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:07:38 PM UTC-7, bob prohaska wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:15:38 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

To get rid of the bicycle chain.

That's a problem solved quite well by the Gates Belt Drive. It does however require a frame alteration -- a split rear triangle -- that adds weight and does nothing for the intrinsic strength and longevity of the bike.

There are other ways of solving the bicycle chain's problems without unintended side effects. For instance, the chain's short life and ferocious demands for love and attention are easily solved by running the chain for its entire life on the factory lube and inside a Hebie Chainglider. See

What's the impediment to using sealed chains, as are used on most motorcycles?
The oldest motorcycle chain in my stable is pushing 60k miles (not km) and is
still quite serviceable. I've been far from dilligent about cleaning and oiling.
Indeed, oil is unhelpful, the links are sealed and oil just attracts dust..

Joerg is working on a design for bicycles.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thursday, May 19, 2016 at 3:07:38 AM UTC+1, bob prohaska wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:15:38 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

To get rid of the bicycle chain.

That's a problem solved quite well by the Gates Belt Drive. It does however require a frame alteration -- a split rear triangle -- that adds weight and does nothing for the intrinsic strength and longevity of the bike.

There are other ways of solving the bicycle chain's problems without unintended side effects. For instance, the chain's short life and ferocious demands for love and attention are easily solved by running the chain for its entire life on the factory lube and inside a Hebie Chainglider. See

What's the impediment to using sealed chains, as are used on most motorcycles?
The oldest motorcycle chain in my stable is pushing 60k miles (not km) and is
still quite serviceable. I've been far from dilligent about cleaning and oiling.
Indeed, oil is unhelpful, the links are sealed and oil just attracts dust..

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

Weight? Cost? Residual cleaning requirements of the chain? Cleaning requirements of the cogs?

Andre Jute

On Wed, 18 May 2016 19:16:06 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:07:38 PM UTC-7, bob prohaska wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:15:38 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

To get rid of the bicycle chain.

That's a problem solved quite well by the Gates Belt Drive. It does however require a frame alteration -- a split rear triangle -- that adds weight and does nothing for the intrinsic strength and longevity of the bike.

There are other ways of solving the bicycle chain's problems without unintended side effects. For instance, the chain's short life and ferocious demands for love and attention are easily solved by running the chain for its entire life on the factory lube and inside a Hebie Chainglider. See

What's the impediment to using sealed chains, as are used on most motorcycles?
The oldest motorcycle chain in my stable is pushing 60k miles (not km) and is
still quite serviceable. I've been far from dilligent about cleaning and oiling.
Indeed, oil is unhelpful, the links are sealed and oil just attracts dust.

Joerg is working on a design for bicycles.

-- Jay Beattie.

Actually there is a standard 1/2" x 5/16" sealed chain manufactured in
a number of widths ( ISO R606, 08B-1) and while it is too wide to use
on a derailer system it might work for a single speed. Certainly well
enough to determine whether it would be an advantage on a bicycle.

The maker describes these chains as "maintenance free, lube free
roller chain".

On the other hand The Complete Guide to Chain
© 1997 by U.S. Tsubaki, Inc. states, in reference to sealed chains,
that: "The link plates holding the O-rings are under compression. This
means greater force is required to articulate the chain, and the
transmitted power is decreased."
--
cheers,

John B.

On 19/05/16 01:31, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:15:38 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

To get rid of the bicycle chain.

That's a problem solved quite well by the Gates Belt Drive. It does
however require a frame alteration -- a split rear triangle -- that
adds weight and does nothing for the intrinsic strength and longevity
of the bike.

There are other ways of solving the bicycle chain's problems without
unintended side effects. For instance, the chain's short life and
ferocious demands for love and attention are easily solved by running
the chain for its entire life on the factory lube and inside a Hebie
Chainglider. See
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6813.0 where I describe
just such an experiment.

I've stopped using Hebie Chaingliders. They are very draggy by design,
which I could put up with, are a faff to remove, which again I could put
up with, but critically I've lunched two of them in normal use where the
rear sprocket cover has caught in something and wrapped around the
chain. I use the Hebie Chainbar now, it's good enough, looks stylish,
and doesn't make a dive for the whirly bits at unexpected moments.

On 5/18/2016 7:04 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:15:38 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

To get rid of the bicycle chain.

That's a problem solved quite well by the Gates Belt Drive. It does however require a frame alteration -- a split rear triangle -- that adds weight and does nothing for the intrinsic strength and longevity of the bike.

There are other ways of solving the bicycle chain's problems without unintended side effects. For instance, the chain's short life and ferocious demands for love and attention are easily solved by running the chain for its entire life on the factory lube and inside a Hebie Chainglider. See

What's the impediment to using sealed chains, as are used on most motorcycles?
The oldest motorcycle chain in my stable is pushing 60k miles (not km) and is
still quite serviceable. I've been far from dilligent about cleaning and oiling.
Indeed, oil is unhelpful, the links are sealed and oil just attracts dust.

To do an O-ring chain on a bicycle would require an increased link size,
in both length and width. The chain wheels and sprockets would all have
to change to a new standard. Wider links would mean the end of 9, 10, &
11 speed rear cassettes.

It still might make sense to do O-ring chains for "transportational"
bicycles where the increased losses due to weight would not be a big issue.

There have also been bicycles with drive shafts (and internal hub gearing).

The "ferocious demands" of a chain are vastly overstated. Some cyclists
spend an inordinate amount of time and money on chain maintenance for no
real benefit, other than it makes them feel good to believe that they
are doing something good for their chain. And worse, some methods of
chain cleaning and lubrication that they are using neither clean, nor
lubricate.

Every year at Interbike you can be sure of two things: 1) there will be
about 25 new creations of energy drinks, gels, and bars, and 2) there
will be about 25 new creations of chain lubricants and cleaners.

At least on cars, there are standards for motor oils and foolishly
paying more for a gourmet oil is pretty rare. With bicycles, you must
have a hundred different chain lubricants and fifty different chain
cleaner formulas when all you really need to properly clean and
lubricate a chain is a petroleum based solvent like kerosene, and a
foaming chain lubricant which is able to penetrate between the pin and
bushing. Instead, you have a lot of people with very clean chains but
only on the outside, and you have them dripping lubricant on the chain,
little of which ever reaches where it needs to go--it's akin to taking
vitamin and mineral supplements.

It is not necessary to remove a chain from the bicycle to clean and
lubricate it, and in fact it isn't even a good idea to do this on the
narrower chains for 10-11 speed rear cassettes. Those chain cleaning
machines do a very good job as long as you change the solvent several
times until it runs clean. As Sheldon wrote: "The on-the-bike system has
the advantage that the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the
rollers. This scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

At least no one seems to be doing hot waxing of chains anymore!

On Thu, 19 May 2016 02:27:16 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/18/2016 7:04 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:15:38 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

To get rid of the bicycle chain.

That's a problem solved quite well by the Gates Belt Drive. It does however require a frame alteration -- a split rear triangle -- that adds weight and does nothing for the intrinsic strength and longevity of the bike.

There are other ways of solving the bicycle chain's problems without unintended side effects. For instance, the chain's short life and ferocious demands for love and attention are easily solved by running the chain for its entire life on the factory lube and inside a Hebie Chainglider. See

What's the impediment to using sealed chains, as are used on most motorcycles?
The oldest motorcycle chain in my stable is pushing 60k miles (not km) and is
still quite serviceable. I've been far from dilligent about cleaning and oiling.
Indeed, oil is unhelpful, the links are sealed and oil just attracts dust.

To do an O-ring chain on a bicycle would require an increased link size,
in both length and width. The chain wheels and sprockets would all have
to change to a new standard. Wider links would mean the end of 9, 10, &
11 speed rear cassettes.

It still might make sense to do O-ring chains for "transportational"
bicycles where the increased losses due to weight would not be a big issue.

There have also been bicycles with drive shafts (and internal hub gearing).

The "ferocious demands" of a chain are vastly overstated. Some cyclists
spend an inordinate amount of time and money on chain maintenance for no
real benefit, other than it makes them feel good to believe that they
are doing something good for their chain. And worse, some methods of
chain cleaning and lubrication that they are using neither clean, nor
lubricate.

Every year at Interbike you can be sure of two things: 1) there will be
about 25 new creations of energy drinks, gels, and bars, and 2) there
will be about 25 new creations of chain lubricants and cleaners.

At least on cars, there are standards for motor oils and foolishly
paying more for a gourmet oil is pretty rare. With bicycles, you must
have a hundred different chain lubricants and fifty different chain
cleaner formulas when all you really need to properly clean and
lubricate a chain is a petroleum based solvent like kerosene, and a
foaming chain lubricant which is able to penetrate between the pin and
bushing. Instead, you have a lot of people with very clean chains but
only on the outside, and you have them dripping lubricant on the chain,
little of which ever reaches where it needs to go--it's akin to taking
vitamin and mineral supplements.

It is not necessary to remove a chain from the bicycle to clean and
lubricate it, and in fact it isn't even a good idea to do this on the
narrower chains for 10-11 speed rear cassettes. Those chain cleaning
machines do a very good job as long as you change the solvent several
times until it runs clean. As Sheldon wrote: "The on-the-bike system has
the advantage that the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the
rollers. This scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

At least no one seems to be doing hot waxing of chains anymore!


Oh? I thought that both James and Frank were chain waxers?
--
cheers,

John B.

Market prevails.

No more than 2500 miles HG50 ? clean every day...bottle shake with thinner..Epic or Valvo Synth/

average over the road clean conditions.

but the Hebie report is AAA !

road incidents, eg the random pebble ingestion...RPI...take extra expense for longer ? chain into nowhere

If belts appear in the TDF ...

On 5/19/2016 7:02 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2016 02:27:16 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/18/2016 7:04 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 7:15:38 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

To get rid of the bicycle chain.

That's a problem solved quite well by the Gates Belt Drive. It does however require a frame alteration -- a split rear triangle -- that adds weight and does nothing for the intrinsic strength and longevity of the bike.

There are other ways of solving the bicycle chain's problems without unintended side effects. For instance, the chain's short life and ferocious demands for love and attention are easily solved by running the chain for its entire life on the factory lube and inside a Hebie Chainglider. See

What's the impediment to using sealed chains, as are used on most motorcycles?
The oldest motorcycle chain in my stable is pushing 60k miles (not km) and is
still quite serviceable. I've been far from dilligent about cleaning and oiling.
Indeed, oil is unhelpful, the links are sealed and oil just attracts dust.

To do an O-ring chain on a bicycle would require an increased link size,
in both length and width. The chain wheels and sprockets would all have
to change to a new standard. Wider links would mean the end of 9, 10, &
11 speed rear cassettes.

It still might make sense to do O-ring chains for "transportational"
bicycles where the increased losses due to weight would not be a big issue.

There have also been bicycles with drive shafts (and internal hub gearing).

The "ferocious demands" of a chain are vastly overstated. Some cyclists
spend an inordinate amount of time and money on chain maintenance for no
real benefit, other than it makes them feel good to believe that they
are doing something good for their chain. And worse, some methods of
chain cleaning and lubrication that they are using neither clean, nor
lubricate.

Every year at Interbike you can be sure of two things: 1) there will be
about 25 new creations of energy drinks, gels, and bars, and 2) there
will be about 25 new creations of chain lubricants and cleaners.

At least on cars, there are standards for motor oils and foolishly
paying more for a gourmet oil is pretty rare. With bicycles, you must
have a hundred different chain lubricants and fifty different chain
cleaner formulas when all you really need to properly clean and
lubricate a chain is a petroleum based solvent like kerosene, and a
foaming chain lubricant which is able to penetrate between the pin and
bushing. Instead, you have a lot of people with very clean chains but
only on the outside, and you have them dripping lubricant on the chain,
little of which ever reaches where it needs to go--it's akin to taking
vitamin and mineral supplements.

It is not necessary to remove a chain from the bicycle to clean and
lubricate it, and in fact it isn't even a good idea to do this on the
narrower chains for 10-11 speed rear cassettes. Those chain cleaning
machines do a very good job as long as you change the solvent several
times until it runs clean. As Sheldon wrote: "The on-the-bike system has
the advantage that the cleaning machine flexes the links and spins the
rollers. This scrubbing action may do a better job of cleaning the innards."

That's pretty dishonest selective quoting. Sheldon's page also says
"There are several ways that people try to clean their chains. Only
those which involve removing the chain from the bicycle are very
satisfactory."


At least no one seems to be doing hot waxing of chains anymore!


Oh? I thought that both James and Frank were chain waxers?

That's what I do. My method's unusual, but it works great. It does not
involve removing the chain, melting pots of hot wax, squeaking after a
rain, or any of the other supposed evils of wax lubrication.
And BTW, it's not covered on Sheldon's site.

On today's ride, I noticed the guy on the Cervelo had an extreme grease
tattoo going up the entire back of his right calf. I don't get those,
and I don't get black gunk all over my cogs, chainrings, chainstays, etc.


--
- Frank Krygowski