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  #31  
Old March 20th 18, 03:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
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Posts: 1,035
Default milling machine

AMuzi wrote:

I'm sure the Luna is a good choice for
"doing it" only the person who has to pay for
it might disagree


An easier question. Just ring up Andy Newlands:

http://www.strawberrybicycle.com/gal...hetti&id=ML314

http://www.strawberrybicycle.com/gal...hetti&id=ML317


If you are saying those machines are
inexpensive, they don't look like that, if you
are saying buy pipes from someone else, one
might as well buy a buycycle... a bicycle, and
be done with it. And perhaps one should!

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
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  #32  
Old March 20th 18, 03:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default milling machine

On 3/20/2018 9:09 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/gth8.jpg


Also, how does one know how much to file away?
Like if you have one tube that has diameter A,
and another has diameter B, and A B, and you
want the second tube to be at an angle X from
the first?

If we return to the lathe guys they have
a small thing with rods that can be pushed back
and forth to form a pattern, perhaps something
like that can be used to do a template if it is
difficult to compute?


I made a frame plate:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/wat9b.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/peg13h.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/peg13i.jpg

but Joe Bringheli or Andy Newlands will sell you a premade
fixtu
http://www.yellowjersey.org/jk30.html

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #33  
Old March 20th 18, 03:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default milling machine

On 3/20/2018 9:36 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I don't know if a drill press will work,
probably not.


What's the problem with a drill press? If the
tubes are as thin as in AMuzi's photo, I don't
see power being a problem assuming the tubes
can be fixed robustly which one has to do
anyway with a milling machine?


1.0mm for heavy touring tube, mostly 0.9 and 0.8 tube in my
repair photos. The latest air hardening tubes are drawn as
thin as 0.3mm.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #34  
Old March 20th 18, 05:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
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Posts: 1,035
Default milling machine

AMuzi wrote:

1.0mm for heavy touring tube, mostly 0.9 and
0.8 tube in my repair photos. The latest air
hardening tubes are drawn as thin as 0.3mm.


?

I have an aluminium frame here which is 2.065kg
and the head tube is 3.7mm and the saddle tube
is 2.35mm!

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #35  
Old March 20th 18, 05:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default milling machine

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 14:52:52 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Mitering bicycle tubes does not require
fabulous precision. A Chinese benchtop mill
could be used


OK, what brands are they?


I think I'll pass on recommending a particular brand or mill. I don't
have much experience with frame building or cheap Chinese mills. Find
a frame builder and ask them what they prefer for mitering.

Otherwise, if you want to go online window shopping:
https://littlemachineshop.com/info/minimill_compare.php
https://www.harborfreight.com/two-speed-variable-bench-mill-drill-machine-44991.html
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Milling-Machine/G8689
https://www.micromark.com/Milling-Machine-R8-500W
Plan on spending about as much as the mill costs on a vise, clamps,
fixture parts, tools, end mills, dial indicators, safety equipment,
etc. Add more money if you want to do major modifications on the
mill, such as a Z axis feed, bigger motor, or electronic speed
control.

CNC conversion kits are available:
https://makezine.com/projects/cnc-mini-mill-conversion-kit-hardware/
http://www.cncfusion.com
https://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Mill-Retrofit-Kit-Compact-Series-Microstepper-for-G0704/T25436
etc...

Hints: Start with a decent mill, not a piece of junk. If you can't
afford a decent mill, be prepared to rebuild a used mill. If you
don't have any experience with machine tools, take classes. If you
don't have the tools to get started, borrow someone else's mill. If
you're about to spend $4,000 for tools to make a single $500 frame,
you might want to reconsider the economics involved. Do your
prototyping on someone else's machine until you know what you need to
make a frame. Everything costs twice as much and takes twice as long
as planned.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #36  
Old March 20th 18, 05:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default milling machine

On 3/20/2018 2:25 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 22:43:37 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 10:59:44 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:48:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:


Incidentally, sharpening all my kitchen knives to an edge sharp enough
for shaving was NOT a good idea. I'm cutting myself quite often and
am slowly destroying my cutting boards and dishes. Paper plates no
longer work as my knives cut through the paper.


I don't do kitchen work but periodically my wife hands me a bunch of
kitchen knives and says "Sharpen them". Generally these are cheap
stainless knives and I've found that simply making a pass across a
grinding wheel on each side works pretty well. It produces a sharp
edge which is not perfectly smooth, more like a very fine tooth saw
which seems to cut better then a perfectly smooth blade.


Disclaimer: I am a beginner on knife making but am learning fast.

It depends one what and how you're using the knife to cut. If you
draw the knife as if you were sawing through the food, a rough edge is
quite superior to a razor sharp edge. However, if you're pushing your
way through the food with the knife, the razor edge works better.

What I did was buy about 15 assorted knives at a local outdoor flea
market and 10 more at a local thrift shop. I used these for practice
to learn how to sharpen them and how to modify the shape of the blade.
Most were stainless but I also found a few 1095 high carbon steel "Old
Hickory" knives.
https://www.knivesplus.com/OLD-HICKORY-KNIVES.HTML

I bought a Harbor Freight 1x30 belt sander and belt assortment from 80
grit to 800 grit:
https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/sanders/1-in-x-30-in-belt-sander-60543.html
an angle guide:
https://www.amazon.com/Knife-Sharpening-Angle-Guide-Sharpen/dp/B01HVXFP80
and a collection of whetstones:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Whetstone-Knife-Grit-1000-8000-Sharpener-Sharpening-Water-Stone-Stand/222660726466
I also setup a binocular microscope so I could see what I was doing to
the edge:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/microscopes/Olympus%20SZ30/slides/SZ30-01.html
After a few frustrating failures, I determined that I could produce a
usable but rough edge with the belt sander, and then refine it to a
razor sharp edge with the water stones. The sanding might only take a
few minutes on the belt sander, but the water stone polishing can
easily take hours. I can easily see the difference with the
microscope.

I have 6" grinder, but I would not use it to sharpen knives. It takes
off too much metal too quickly to maintain control. When I tried it,
the result was a rather "wavy" edge. Even a belt sander takes off too
much metal if you use a rough (80 or 120 grit) belt. If you have a
belt sander, try starting with 120 grit to remove the dings and chips.
Then use increasingly finer belts until you get to 400 or 800 grit.
You can probably just quit there, or if you want a smooth edge, use a
succession of water stones (1000 to 3000) to improve on the edge.


Somewhere around the Net is a site that talks about super sharp, or
deadly sharp, or some other fancy name. That guy used plain old emery
paper on a flat block to sharpen a knife.

I've tried it and it works pretty well except that if you move the
blade forward - leading with the sharp edge - it scrapes the abrasive
off the paper :-) But it does work pretty well if you pull the blade
"backward" with the sharp edge trailing. I usually have a couple pf
wood blocks with emery paper glued to one side laying around the
bench.


After trying many techniques over the decades, my favorite tool for
sharpening knives is a steel block whose top surface is impregnated with
industrial diamond abrasive. It seems to last forever, which for
practical purposes means it stays flat. I have other whetstones that
have gradually gotten concave, which makes it tough to maintain the
proper edge angles.

I use the classic technique, which is sharpen the main bevel at
something like 20 degrees, then lightly sharpen a smaller bevel at 45
degrees, and touch up or polish the edge with a hone or other piece of
hard steel. I use the hone far more often than the abrasive. Lots of
times, the edge just needs touching up, not actual grinding.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #37  
Old March 20th 18, 05:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default milling machine

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 15:36:07 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I don't know if a drill press will work,
probably not.


What's the problem with a drill press? If the
tubes are as thin as in AMuzi's photo, I don't
see power being a problem assuming the tubes
can be fixed robustly which one has to do
anyway with a milling machine?


1. Most use bushings, not bearings, which can't tolerate much side
loading. Getting rid of the wobble is not easy.
2. Lack of power. The typical 1/2 HP motor drive does not have the
power to drive large diameter tools. If you try, the belt will slip
or the Morse taper holding the drill will spin. If you succeed, the
motor won't tolerate continuous running.
3. End mills might fit in a drill chuck but without a locking
mechanism will slip and spin.
4. No cutter lube system.
5. Drill table tilt is difficult to adjust to perpendicular to the
cutter.
6. Setup and fixturing is not easily repeatable.
7. E-bay X-Y tables are junk.

Don't Mill With a Drill Press
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-8ddRE7iWM

"IMPOSSIBLE!" Milling Machine from a Drill Press
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY-wXcFhx5w

SUCCESS!! Drill to Mill Conversion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXvaZImOTbc

There are numerous YouTube videos showing various ways to convert a
drill press into a mill. Learn by Destroying(tm).


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #38  
Old March 20th 18, 05:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default milling machine

On 3/20/2018 12:22 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Everything costs twice as much and takes twice as long
as planned.


Here, I must disagree. For many years, I did my plans, then multiplied
by three instead of multiplying by two. I found multiplying by three
produced cost and time estimates that were much more accurate.

But then, when I was doing some work for a small local company, the
owner pointed out multiplying by three was really not very scientific.
He said it's much more scientific to multiply by pi.

So 3.14159 is what I've used ever since.
--
- Frank Krygowski
  #39  
Old March 20th 18, 06:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default milling machine

On 3/20/2018 11:40 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 15:36:07 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I don't know if a drill press will work,
probably not.


What's the problem with a drill press? If the
tubes are as thin as in AMuzi's photo, I don't
see power being a problem assuming the tubes
can be fixed robustly which one has to do
anyway with a milling machine?


1. Most use bushings, not bearings, which can't tolerate much side
loading. Getting rid of the wobble is not easy.
2. Lack of power. The typical 1/2 HP motor drive does not have the
power to drive large diameter tools. If you try, the belt will slip
or the Morse taper holding the drill will spin. If you succeed, the
motor won't tolerate continuous running.
3. End mills might fit in a drill chuck but without a locking
mechanism will slip and spin.
4. No cutter lube system.
5. Drill table tilt is difficult to adjust to perpendicular to the
cutter.
6. Setup and fixturing is not easily repeatable.
7. E-bay X-Y tables are junk.

Don't Mill With a Drill Press
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-8ddRE7iWM

"IMPOSSIBLE!" Milling Machine from a Drill Press
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY-wXcFhx5w

SUCCESS!! Drill to Mill Conversion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXvaZImOTbc

There are numerous YouTube videos showing various ways to convert a
drill press into a mill. Learn by Destroying(tm).



Your 'don't mill with a drill press' link mentions lower
receivers. Ouch. That's a spectacularly bad idea in a drill
press:

http://personal.linkline.com/rlockyer/XD9/PLOWER2.JPG

The Inter Webs are full of bad examples after which the guy
had to start with a new blank. It's a relatively fast simple
setup in a vertical mill.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #40  
Old March 20th 18, 06:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default milling machine

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 12:49:36 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/20/2018 12:22 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Everything costs twice as much and takes twice as long
as planned.


Here, I must disagree.


Does that mean you agree with everything else that I wrote?

For many years, I did my plans, then multiplied
by three instead of multiplying by two. I found multiplying by three
produced cost and time estimates that were much more accurate.

But then, when I was doing some work for a small local company, the
owner pointed out multiplying by three was really not very scientific.
He said it's much more scientific to multiply by pi.

So 3.14159 is what I've used ever since.


Instead of Pi, I suggest a more optimistic Euler's number of
e=2.7182818...

It's actually worse than Pi. In a former life and job, the project
manager would ask me how long it would take for me to prototype,
build, and deliver some gizmo. He would then double my estimate. His
time estimate would then go to the engineering manager, who would
double it again. When it left the desk of the chief engineer, it was
again doubled. Knowing that it was now 8 times my original estimate,
marketing would optimistically give a delivery date slightly less than
my original estimate, and then double the scope of the project. The
resulting 16 times my original estimate would be a fairly good number
for the final 100% completed. Cost overruns are much the same, but
can be made to look acceptable by creative cost accounting.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 




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