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  #91  
Old June 3rd 21, 01:11 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Good quality bikes

On Wed, 2 Jun 2021 06:57:28 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:00:56 a.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:14:06 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:12:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 5/31/21 4:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2021 12:45:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 5/25/21 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
The Airborne looks like it will be about a half lb less weight than the Trek Emonda in the same size. One might suppose that the Trek might be more Aero but like the Airborne, it has large diameter tubes that had no attempt at being aero in design. Also one would have to question whether small diameter round steel tubes are less aero than the much larger diameter of, say, the Pinarello frameset. I can't say that I ever noticed any difference between the late Basso Loto I had and the Trek Madone which was supposedly quite aero.

Of course I'm not a pro rider and I very seldom even approach the speeds that the pros commonly get in the peloton.

But isn't that the entire point of Aero? To give you that very small gain when you ride at those sorts of speeds all day long? You sure as hell aren't going to put out these sorts of power and my entire reason for posting this is to tell you that you sure as hell aren't going to gain enough to even consider spending large amounts of money on a fantasy bike to make it worth your while.

Another point - Components are now more expensive than good frames. But China is invading that space as well. You can get a Sensah 11 speed group complete for $200. They have been working their way up from not very reliable and seem to have now hit a high enough reliability standard that I will give them a test. The failure points seem to be the levers on the previous versions but that supposedly has been reengineered to be reliable. And if it weren't so you could always buy SRAM levers which have the same pull ratio and we know that those levers are reliable. And you would still save a pile of money. I'll see after I get rid of all of my extraneous bikes.


I wish bikes would achieve at least the quality of a cheap car. But they
don't and that includes expensive stuff. Every few hundred miles
something needs maintenance, wears out of needs service. Our cars go
tens of thousands of miles without a lick of trouble, all they needs is
an oil change every 4000-5000mi.

Yesterday the MicroShift derailer on the road bike began biting the
dust. The freehub is announcing its demise as well. Same for the bottom
bracket which began noise messaging, again. For both I bought the most
expensive ones from Shimano that I could find and that would fit. Not
going to do that again.

And don't get me started on tires. Hurumph, grumble.

Well, this has been discussed before buy I would suggest (again) that
if you are willing to pay as much for a bicycle as you do for your
auto then it is highly likely that you will be able to get one that
will last practically for ever.

But you are the guy that brags about using the cheapest tires that you
can get, aren't you?

No, I buy cheap tires because with lots of bike stuff you simply do not
get what you pay for. I found out that $15 road bike tires do not last
any less on average than $50 ones. Same on the MTB. I had really
expensive tires on the rear. Lasted 800mi. Now I use $20 tires and they
last ... 800mi. Then the tread is gone.

My SUV tires cost me $80 and they last well over 50,000mi even when
often schlepping half a ton of firewood across rutty dirt roads. Now
that's what I call a good price/performance ratio.

All I am asking for is, for example, this: Offer a derailer that has
ball bearings in the linkages, a really strong cage and then charge 2x
the usual price for it. Not 10x. To heck with the extra 200 grams, offer
people some reasonable choice. There are a lot of people who aren't
weight weenies but they simply want to arrive on time. Just like they
can with their cars.

I am aware there are things such as Rohloff hubs. However, I have known
people who have crunched those or had other issues with them such as
erratic shifting and gears not holding. That simply does not happen on a
car. When I inquired about the cost that took the cake. They wanted
$1500 just for the hub. Plus tax. Plus shifter. Plus cable. Plus labor.
Crazy.
Crazy to you but not to all the people on expedition bikes headed to Tierra Del Fuego, which is considerably more difficult than riding a '70s Euro sport bike around the roads and trails in Cameron Park. http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/Th...loff_LoRes.pdf BTW, I know people (me) who have had issues with car transmissions, so I'm not surprised that some number of purchasers had issues with their Rohloff hubs -- or any other product for that matter. Every product has a failure rate.

I'm not a Rohloff fan because they're too expensive for my needs, but you apparently need a bomb-proof road bike. Get ready to pay and quit moaning about how a 3,000 pound car is more durable.

Other cheaper options include six speed and a triple and friction shift. I don't think there was an STI/Ergo 6speed system, so you're stuck with friction -- maybe some bar-ends. You can use old Deore derailleurs, which are the true survivor cockroaches of derailleurs.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think people here can't help Joerg. We tried though. What was it? Light, durable and cheap? You can choose 2 out of 3. In Joerg's case it has to be durable and cheap. That is a problem so far.

Lou


If Joerg were to cut a car tire in half and also cut a bicycle tire in

half he'd notice a major difference in thickness of tread and
sidewalls. I keep telling him to get a dirt motorcycle, remove the
engine and put a crankset and chain on it if he want's
automobile/motorcycle longevity . LOL VBEG

Cheers


Out of curiosity I did some research on "cheap bike tires" and I find
that the Chinese are selling them for as low a $1.00 each in lots.
Which for his $80/each he pays for auto tires would provide him with
sufficient tires (using his mileage figures) to ride some 800 X 80 =
64,000 miles.

I think that Joerg just likes to whine and bitch.
--
Cheers,

John B.

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  #92  
Old June 3rd 21, 01:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Good quality bikes

On Wed, 2 Jun 2021 09:03:34 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 6/1/21 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 11:12:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


[...]

No, I buy cheap tires because with lots of bike stuff you simply do
not get what you pay for. I found out that $15 road bike tires do
not last any less on average than $50 ones. Same on the MTB. I had
really expensive tires on the rear. Lasted 800mi. Now I use $20
tires and they last ... 800mi. Then the tread is gone.


Yes, but it is possible to make a bicycle tire that would last your
quoted 50,000 miles. Of course it will, like the auto tire, be
substantially heavier and thicker then the more up-market bike tires
and a cursory check of prices indicate that they will be in the $200
- $300 or higher , range.


So why can Michelin make them for cars for $80?

In 2012, the Michelin produced 166 million tires. Development and
tooling thus can be costed over a vast number of items sold.


In fact there was a guy that used to post here that was making
tires. You could try and contact him to see whether you could have
custom tires with (I estimate) about 5/8" thick tread and perhaps
1/4" sidewalls.


Well, obviously I don't want to pay hundreds for a custom solution.


My SUV tires cost me $80 and they last well over 50,000mi even
when often schlepping half a ton of firewood across rutty dirt
roads. Now that's what I call a good price/performance ratio.


$1.60 that I believe I mentioned I had seen the tires that you
advocate on sale here for... lets see, that would be 80/1.60 = 50 X
800 = 40,000 miles... It sounds like you are getting your money's
worth.

Of course, if you are naive to pay $20 for a $1.60 item then there
is no help for you.


It's simple. You have to live with whatever prices are demanded where
you live. Give us an example here where we can order a Vittoria Zaffiro
for $1.60. Or as the Romans used to say, hic Rhodus, hic salta :-)

Why? You stated that you used cheap Thai made tires and I came across
what you described in a wholesale place in Phuket and told you what
the cost really was.

Besides, you can never get Continental Gatorskins for that price and
even those don't last. I tried four in a row and the results were poor.

[...]


But, as I mention in another post the Chinese are selling bike tires
for as low as $1.00 each in lots. Using your own figures you can buy
80 tires for the $80 that you pay for your SUV tires times the 800
miles you claim, or 64.000 miles at the cost of one SUV tire.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #93  
Old June 6th 21, 03:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Good quality bikes

On 6/5/2021 2:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 5:27:29 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2021 12:42 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, June 4, 2021 at 7:21:05 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:

$250 for what? Each? Set of four with new valves and dynamic
balancing?

It was 8 years ago but yes.

Ah yes, your amazing memory tells you so!


At least I could pay for it. Some miserable little nobody like you has had the same bike for 35 years because of your wonderful educational system pension. I made $12,000 last month and $8,000 the month before and this month is supposed to be better. What about you?


First, I really doubt your memory on that price for four tires. You've
told us countless times how bad your memory is, and you've demonstrated
it even more times. Even if you were trying to be honest, your memory
can't be trusted.

Second, I don't care how much your investments jumped last month. More
to the point, I don't care how much _my_ investments jumped last month.
I pay someone to manage that for me, and it's simply not a concern. I no
longer worry about money. If I wanted to buy every bike you own, I could
send you the money tomorrow and never notice the difference in my balance.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #94  
Old June 7th 21, 05:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Good quality bikes

On 6/7/2021 9:09 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

Day trading means trades accomplished in a day. You can buy a contract for a week or a month (or any other equity, derivative, etc.) but you sell it that day. In fact, you may sell it in ten minutes. The whole idea of day trading is to capitalize on intra-day price fluctuations.

-- Jay Beattie.


Correct. Tom can learn about this by reading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_trading.
  #95  
Old June 7th 21, 08:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Good quality bikes

On 6/7/2021 1:57 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/7/2021 12:15 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 5:48:40 PM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2021 6:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 11:47:55 AM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2021 10:44 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 7:18:12 PM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

Along those lines: Years ago, a friend of mine was
chairman of a
volunteer board I served on for years. At one monthly
meeting, he came
in obviously happy as a lark. Someone asked why he
was in such a good mood.

He bragged "Oh, I really cleaned up today! The market
jumped over 200
points!" He had been playing around doing day
trading, and that was way
back when 200 points was really something.

Within a few months, there was a similar sudden drop.
He said nothing at
all about it.

Frank, when you are really stupid about the market try
not to make it so public. Day trading means that he
got his investment out of the market when it went up
and he didn't reinvest when it went down - he got the
money. But with the IQ of a watermelon you just have
to force yourself to show everyone just how stupid you
are.
Tom, why are you imagining you know what happened with
the investments
of my friend? You can't even tell me his name!

Does it matter to you that he's since given up day
trading?

When he told me that, I didn't ask why. Perhaps he read
this:
https://www.fool.com/investing/how-t...s/day-trading/


https://www.thebalance.com/why-it-is...rading-1031238


"... although every day trader believes they can make
money, most people
who attempt day trading end up with a net loss."

Read the referenced research.
So now you're telling us that your friend ended up with
a net loss? I have a friend that has been averaging
$6,000 a week for the last two years. He went from
having to rent out his apartment and living in his
garage to being able to pay off his loan in a condo with
a real garage and a sweeping view of San Francisco bay.
When you know not one ****ing thing about what you're
talking about, why do you continue? Exactly what does it
feel like to be a punch line?
If indeed you have such a friend (which, given your
record here, is
doubtful) why have you spent so much time here
complaining about your
expenses? Couldn't you have your "friend" tell you what
to do
investment-wise, day by day and hour by hour? Or just
have him do it for
you?

Just think! You could buy groceries without whining about
prices! You
could buy name brand, good quality bike components
instead of trolling
Ebay for Chinese counterfeits! You could move out of that
hell hole you
always complain about!

I see two possible explanations: Your "friend" doesn't
like you enough
to help you out; or your "friend" is imaginary.


Tell me Frank, since you know absolutely squat about
investing why do you keep up your attempt to beat a dead
horse? I invest, day trading is gambling. But you're so
stupid you don't know that.


Day trading _is_ gambling; on that we agree. And like almost
all gamblers, almost all day traders lose in the long run.
It's a lousy investment strategy.

And most gamblers are prone to brag when they score a win
but say nothing when they lose. Just like day traders. Just
like my friend. And just like you did a couple days ago,
bragging about your winnings, but never recanting on your
years of whining about your grocery prices, inflation, your
hellhole of a neighborhood, the terrible state in which you
live, etc.

My friend gave up day trading. I doubt we'll ever get you to
give up bragging. Or whining.



Day trading _may be_ (and often is) gambling but not
necessarily always. There are valid short transaction period
strategies.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #96  
Old June 8th 21, 12:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,041
Default Good quality bikes

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 11:43:52 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I'm just tired of Frank trying to tell us that money can't be made in the market on a consistent basis because he doesn't have any investments.


Who on earth on this forum made such comments? Based on Frank's posts on this forum, I am positive he is smart enough not to make such a comment. Almost everyone on earth who has any education at all knows not to make that comment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%26P_500#History
Above is a link to the S&P 500 index in Wikipedia. It has a table at the bottom of the page that shows the annual return. It has a column showing the 25 year return too. Goes from 1970 to 2020. 50 years of results for the S&P 500. 50 years is a good range to consider. Some of the people on this forum may have been investing in the markets for 50 years now. The last line shown is 2020. Six months ago. The 25 year annual return as of end of 2020 was 9.56% annual return. Assume dividends reinvested. So for every $1 you put into the S&P 500 on January 1, 1996 up until December 31, 2020, you would now have $9.80. Roughly a 10 times return in 25 years. So if you put in $100,000 in 1996, you'd be almost a millionaire today. Or six months ago. Everyone with any upper level schooling, and probably most of those with less education too, understand how compound interest works. And for the stock market, whether its the total market, the SP500, the Nasdaq, or mid or small cap, over time it gives a good solid return. Due to the growth of civilization on Earth.
  #97  
Old June 8th 21, 01:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,041
Default Good quality bikes

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 11:48:56 AM UTC-5, wrote:
except in the rare occasions like when Trump was in office and it went up virtually every day except for the predictable corrections.


Gosh darn Tom. You just love to throw those softballs way high up in the air and give me the chance to hit out of the park grand slams with them. Thanks.

Below are the prices for the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund. A good approximation of the entire USA stock market. Since it includes every single stock traded in the USA. I'm using annual returns. Not election or inauguration dates since its easier to calculate returns based on calendar years. OK.

12/30/2016 $56.08
12/29/2017 $66.72
12/31/2018 $62.09
12/31/2019 $79.69
12/31/2020 $94.74

Annual returns
2017 18.97%
2018 -6.94%
2019 28.35%
2020 18.89%

Please look at that 2018 line. The annual return in the USA stock market was a NEGATIVE MINUS 6.94%. NEGATIVE MINUS in 2018. And yet you say the stock market went up virtually everyday except predictable corrections. Trump signed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 on December 22, 2017 and the changes went into effect on January 1, 2018. Was Trump giving trillions of money to corporations a predictable correction? Were all the CEOs counting so much free government tax reduction money that they couldn't spare any time to waste running their companies? Was that predictable?

You being the genius financial investor, did you sell everything you own on December 22, 2017 and then buy it all back on January 1, 2019? Thus avoiding the Trump 2018 stock market losses?
  #98  
Old June 8th 21, 03:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Good quality bikes

On 6/7/2021 3:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:

Day trading _may be_ (and often is) gambling but not necessarily always.
There are valid short transaction period strategies.


I'll accept that correction, with a bit of modification. Yes, of course
there are some valid short term investment strategies.

But the vast majority of day traders apparently do not use those
strategies for most of their trades. They do not come out ahead,
according to several sources. For them day trading is most likely like
other gambling.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #99  
Old June 8th 21, 04:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Good quality bikes

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 7:20:03 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/7/2021 3:51 PM, AMuzi wrote:

Day trading _may be_ (and often is) gambling but not necessarily always..
There are valid short transaction period strategies.

I'll accept that correction, with a bit of modification. Yes, of course
there are some valid short term investment strategies.

But the vast majority of day traders apparently do not use those
strategies for most of their trades. They do not come out ahead,
according to several sources. For them day trading is most likely like
other gambling.


There is a mind-boggling array of data and analytics available to the modern day trader that, if properly understood, will produce sure-fire profits -- except when it doesn't. It's like using your super-computer to plot the perfect trajectory for a moon-shot, only to have your rocket hit by a piece of space junk. There are frequent WTF moments, but there are also ways to mitigate that uncertainty by cheating -- or quasi-cheating, or as the kids put it "pay back." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GameStop_short_squeeze Sticking it to the man!

-- Jay Beattie.

 




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