#41
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Dry lube?
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 23:01:25 -0700, sms
wrote: On 4/28/2018 12:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:19:23 -0700, sms wrote: For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y "Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains" You can't be serious. The pins and rollers are made from steel. I don't see how PJ1 can penetrate solid steel unless you also prefer to ride on sintered steel or steel sponge (if there is such a thing). I don't think that you understand how these foaming chain lubes work. I just read the Amazon page as it is written. It says "...penetrates into the pins and rollers". If it works as you describe, then it should say "...penetrates between the pins and rollers". It's a very thin foaming solvent that penetrates inside the chain, carrying the lubricant with it. Then the solvent evaporates and the lubricant is thick enough that it doesn't just leak out. Sounds great, except when I tried various home brew solvent carriers last summer, it didn't quite work. What I did was mix whatever oils and solvents I had on hand with a dash of fluorescent leak indicator: https://www.amazon.com/Tracer-Products-TP34000601-Fluorescent-Detection/dp/B000JFHNTM http://www.ebay.com/bhp/leak-detection-dye https://www.ebay.com/itm/173277326096 and smear it onto a fairly new section of chain that was stripped of all lubricants in a noxious heated paint thinner bath. After lubricating the chain in various ways (brush, drip, soak, and immersion), the outside of the chain was wiped as clean as possible with a rag and several pins partly extracted with a slightly ground down chain tool. I crudely simulated some wear by stuffing a small bolt through the chain sleeve, putting the bolt into an electric drill, and slinging the remaining oil all over my shop. (Hint: Do this part outdoors). As expected, there was some oil smearing on the extracted pins from lube trapped between the side plates but very little appeared on the pin itself. There was no sign of an even coating or the accumulation of sufficient oil to provide lubrication. (Sorry, no photos because I was doing this by myself and decided not to slop oil on my camera by trying to take photos). I also tried to weigh the chain segment after lubrication and again after a solvent bath see how much oil would cling to the chain. The density of machine oil is 0.91 grams/ml (at 20C). I didn't notice much of a difference before and after probably because my cheap drug dealers electronic scale only has 1 gram resolution. I should repeat this test using as many chains as possible and with a much better resolution scale. Think of this way. You mix some solvent and oil or wax and paint it on some non-porous surface. The solvent evaporates, leaving islands of oil or wax. The empty space, previously occupied by the solvent, might eventually fill by the oil or wax migrating under compression but only at the expense of film thickness. In other words, the solvent might leave a void. If foam is used, the volume of the bubbles are huge compared to lube, which should leave equally huge voids. Therefore, I suspect that foam is an inferior carrier compared to solvent. Next time you lube a chain, mix some fluorescent dye with the lube and see where it really goes and where it clings. Before you find additional faults in my procedure, please note that this was a hastily contrived test intended to test the assumption that a solvent (or foam) carrier might be useable as a delivery mechanism. There's plenty of room for improvement. For example, heating the chain or mixture, applying it in a pressure cooker, or possibly ultrasonic agitation might help improve delivery. However, my preliminary observations seem to indicate that solvent delivery doesn't work as well as advertised. (I didn't test foam delivery). Suggestions are always welcome. It's the same way liquid hot wax gets into the chain, but the wax hardens and is quickly rubbed off. That's why this observation "If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas" is especially relevant. Or as one manufacturer states "As the foam breaks, the lubricant penetrates into wire rope and roller chain mechanisms, depositing a molybdenum disulfide based grease to provide superior lubricating properties to surfaces." I don't think it should surprise anyone that the best lubricant for a chain is a lubricant designed for a chain. Trust, but verify. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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#42
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Dry lube?
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:24:45 -0700, sms
wrote: 1. Ensure that the lubricant doesn't just remain on the surface but penetrates into the pins and rollers. It needs to be thin to do this. Again, oil does not penetrate steel unless it is porous. Please adjust your terminology accordingly. What makes oil adhere to the surface of steel is that it has a low surface tension paraffin oil 48 mN/m while water puddles or runs off because the surface tension is higher. water 72 mN/m Surface tension tables: http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/general_physics/2_2/2_2_5.html 2. Ensure that the lubricant is not quickly displaced. Solid lubricants like wax are not suitable unless you could rig something up that keeps the chain hot and the wax fluid. Maybe this butane torch https://www.harborfreight.com/butane-micro-torch-63170.html keeping the chain hot. Why not do it the way most other industries remove air bubbles from casting and molds? Use a vacuum chamber. Dump the chain and oil in a can. Put it in a vacuum chamber (pressure cooker), suck the air out, wait a while, and you have a perfectly lubricated chain devoid of any trapped air. It may not stay lubricated, but it should last a few rides. Don't forget the filter between the vacuum chamber and the vacuum pump and to check if the lube oil is compatible with the seals used in the vacuum pump: What I have (2 stage): https://shop.edwardsvacuum.com/produ...4902/view.aspx Much cheaper (only single stage): https://www.harborfreight.com/25-cfm-vacuum-pump-98076.html I could try it, but don't want to wreck my good vacuum pump. I'll see if I can scrounge a Harbor Freight version. Interesting reading: http://www.machinerylubrication.com Try plugging "bicycle chain" into the search box. For example: Improving Chain Lubrication http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/729/chain-lubrication In a humid environment (such as a pulp mill), or where chains are subject to water wash-down (such as food plants), it is imperative to displace water from the chain on a regular basis by using a penetrating type of chain lubricant. Regular oil and grease are nonpolar and therefore unable to grab onto the water and remove it. A polar organic solvent included in the formulation of the lubricant works best. If the chain is running through and/or is immersed in water, a combination of penetrating oil and tacky grease is the best method. This forces the water out initially, and then seals the inside of the chain to prevent water from getting in. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#43
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Dry lube?
On 4/29/2018 12:41 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:24:45 -0700, sms wrote: 1. Ensure that the lubricant doesn't just remain on the surface but penetrates into the pins and rollers. It needs to be thin to do this. Again, oil does not penetrate steel unless it is porous. Please adjust your terminology accordingly. What makes oil adhere to the surface of steel is that it has a low surface tension paraffin oil 48 mN/m while water puddles or runs off because the surface tension is higher. water 72 mN/m Surface tension tables: http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/general_physics/2_2/2_2_5.html 2. Ensure that the lubricant is not quickly displaced. Solid lubricants like wax are not suitable unless you could rig something up that keeps the chain hot and the wax fluid. Maybe this butane torch https://www.harborfreight.com/butane-micro-torch-63170.html keeping the chain hot. Why not do it the way most other industries remove air bubbles from casting and molds? Use a vacuum chamber. Dump the chain and oil in a can. Put it in a vacuum chamber (pressure cooker), suck the air out, wait a while, and you have a perfectly lubricated chain devoid of any trapped air. It may not stay lubricated, but it should last a few rides. Don't forget the filter between the vacuum chamber and the vacuum pump and to check if the lube oil is compatible with the seals used in the vacuum pump: What I have (2 stage): https://shop.edwardsvacuum.com/produ...4902/view.aspx Much cheaper (only single stage): https://www.harborfreight.com/25-cfm-vacuum-pump-98076.html I could try it, but don't want to wreck my good vacuum pump. I'll see if I can scrounge a Harbor Freight version. Interesting reading: http://www.machinerylubrication.com Try plugging "bicycle chain" into the search box. For example: Improving Chain Lubrication http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/729/chain-lubrication In a humid environment (such as a pulp mill), or where chains are subject to water wash-down (such as food plants), it is imperative to displace water from the chain on a regular basis by using a penetrating type of chain lubricant. Regular oil and grease are nonpolar and therefore unable to grab onto the water and remove it. A polar organic solvent included in the formulation of the lubricant works best. If the chain is running through and/or is immersed in water, a combination of penetrating oil and tacky grease is the best method. This forces the water out initially, and then seals the inside of the chain to prevent water from getting in. speaking of food processing machinery, we tried this for chain and found it wanting: https://www.lubriplate.com/Products/...L-2-Spray.aspx it doesn't foam so much as clot and despite salesman's spiel didn't penetrate chain rollers. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#44
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Dry lube?
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 13:22:23 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
speaking of food processing machinery, we tried this for chain and found it wanting: https://www.lubriplate.com/Products/...L-2-Spray.aspx it doesn't foam so much as clot and despite salesman's spiel didn't penetrate chain rollers. Well, you can always spray some on your sandwich. It's Kosher: https://www.lubriplate.com/PDFs/PDS/8_6_FML-0-1-2.aspx "These products are certified OU Kosher Pareve" "These products are Halal certified" Looks like a zinc oxide (not lithium) white grease based product. https://www.lubriplate.com/PDFs/SDS/S0026-FMLAerosol.html Ingredient name % CAS number White mineral oil (petroleum) 25 to 50 8042-47-5 Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated light 25 to 50 64742-47-8 Petroleum gases, liquefied 10 to 25 68476-85-7 zinc oxide 3 to 5 1314-13-2 Ok, it's a tooth paste and mineral oil mix. I guess it's edible but it probably doesn't taste very good. Maybe add some sugar. However, ZnO is also an abrasive (as in toothpaste), which doesn't seem like a good idea to include in a lubricant. Ask your tribometrist or dietician for details. Hmmm... I think I just lost my appetite. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#45
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Dry lube?
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 14:55:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: Looks like a zinc oxide (not lithium) white grease based product. https://www.lubriplate.com/PDFs/SDS/S0026-FMLAerosol.html Ingredient name % CAS number White mineral oil (petroleum) 25 to 50 8042-47-5 Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated light 25 to 50 64742-47-8 Petroleum gases, liquefied 10 to 25 68476-85-7 zinc oxide 3 to 5 1314-13-2 Oh-oh. There's a problem. On Pg 8, under "Specific target organ toxicity (single exposure)", the SDS sheet offers: Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated light Category 3. Narcotic effects. Narcotic effects? Does this mean I could get high sniffing the FML lube? Try to explain to the police and insurance company that your cycling accident was caused by sniffing your food safe chain lube. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#46
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Dry lube?
On 4/29/2018 10:03 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
snip Sounds great, except when I tried various home brew solvent carriers last summer, it didn't quite work. Of course you also believed that I could glue two halves of a broken brake lever together. Sometimes homebrew solutions are just not going to work and are more costly then purchasing a mass produced product specifically designed for a particular use. |
#47
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Dry lube?
On 4/29/2018 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:24:45 -0700, sms wrote: 1. Ensure that the lubricant doesn't just remain on the surface but penetrates into the pins and rollers. It needs to be thin to do this. Again, oil does not penetrate steel unless it is porous. Please adjust your terminology accordingly. I suspect that you're not a lot of fun at parties. Fine, "it penetrates into the spaces between the pins and rollers." |
#49
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Dry lube?
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:01:33 -0700, sms
wrote: On 4/29/2018 10:03 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip Sounds great, except when I tried various home brew solvent carriers last summer, it didn't quite work. Of course you also believed that I could glue two halves of a broken brake lever together. Nice change of subject. However, I'm bored so I'll lecture you on the fine art of electrolysis generated hydrogen torch welding, also known as an "oxygen hydrogen water welder": https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=oxygen+hydrogen+water+welder It use electricity to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, feed them to an oxygen-hydrogen torch or "HHO torch": https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=hho+torch which is then used to weld the aluminum. This is mostly about oxy-fuel welding, but oxy-hydrogen is similar: https://www.tinmantech.com/education/articles/aluminum-welding-using-oxy-fuel-welding-on-aircraft-aluminum-sheet.php (4 parts). I don't currently own one of these welders. I practice with a friends water welder, currently learning to butt weld two pieces of 0.040" aluminum sheet metal together. At this point, I'm not very skilled at this style of welding, but am getting better. Had you elected not to throw away the broken brake lever, and sent it to me, I'm quite sure I could have welded it back together or had my friend do the work. Sometimes homebrew solutions are just not going to work and are more costly then purchasing a mass produced product specifically designed for a particular use. I see that you only favor ecologically correct solutions when they are economically advantageous. Well, that's a common attitude today and probably will be for at least few more decades. Eventually, aluminum prices will rise and you might find repair more appealing than replace. Meanwhile, I continue to repair things at a loss for the simple pleasure of keeping them out of the municipal dump. https://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto In the unlikely event that you find my point of view compelling, start he https://ifixit.org/pledge -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#50
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Dry lube?
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 18:20:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:01:33 -0700, sms wrote: On 4/29/2018 10:03 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip Sounds great, except when I tried various home brew solvent carriers last summer, it didn't quite work. Of course you also believed that I could glue two halves of a broken brake lever together. Nice change of subject. However, I'm bored so I'll lecture you on the fine art of electrolysis generated hydrogen torch welding, also known as an "oxygen hydrogen water welder": https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=oxygen+hydrogen+water+welder It use electricity to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, feed them to an oxygen-hydrogen torch or "HHO torch": https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=hho+torch which is then used to weld the aluminum. This is mostly about oxy-fuel welding, but oxy-hydrogen is similar: https://www.tinmantech.com/education/articles/aluminum-welding-using-oxy-fuel-welding-on-aircraft-aluminum-sheet.php (4 parts). I don't currently own one of these welders. I practice with a friends water welder, currently learning to butt weld two pieces of 0.040" aluminum sheet metal together. At this point, I'm not very skilled at this style of welding, but am getting better. Had you elected not to throw away the broken brake lever, and sent it to me, I'm quite sure I could have welded it back together or had my friend do the work. Off topic question here. How much heat do these water based systems develop. You talk about welding .040" aluminum but could the same torch be used as a replacement for a small oxy-acetylene system for general use. Welding, brazing, etc? Sometimes homebrew solutions are just not going to work and are more costly then purchasing a mass produced product specifically designed for a particular use. I see that you only favor ecologically correct solutions when they are economically advantageous. Well, that's a common attitude today and probably will be for at least few more decades. Eventually, aluminum prices will rise and you might find repair more appealing than replace. Meanwhile, I continue to repair things at a loss for the simple pleasure of keeping them out of the municipal dump. https://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto In the unlikely event that you find my point of view compelling, start he https://ifixit.org/pledge -- Cheers, John B. |
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