A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Dry lube?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old April 29th 18, 06:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Dry lube?

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 23:01:25 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/28/2018 12:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:19:23 -0700, sms
wrote:

For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y

"Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers
Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains"


You can't be serious. The pins and rollers are made from steel. I
don't see how PJ1 can penetrate solid steel unless you also prefer to
ride on sintered steel or steel sponge (if there is such a thing).


I don't think that you understand how these foaming chain lubes work.


I just read the Amazon page as it is written. It says "...penetrates
into the pins and rollers". If it works as you describe, then it
should say "...penetrates between the pins and rollers".

It's a very thin foaming solvent that penetrates inside the chain,
carrying the lubricant with it. Then the solvent evaporates and the
lubricant is thick enough that it doesn't just leak out.


Sounds great, except when I tried various home brew solvent carriers
last summer, it didn't quite work. What I did was mix whatever oils
and solvents I had on hand with a dash of fluorescent leak indicator:
https://www.amazon.com/Tracer-Products-TP34000601-Fluorescent-Detection/dp/B000JFHNTM
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/leak-detection-dye
https://www.ebay.com/itm/173277326096
and smear it onto a fairly new section of chain that was stripped of
all lubricants in a noxious heated paint thinner bath. After
lubricating the chain in various ways (brush, drip, soak, and
immersion), the outside of the chain was wiped as clean as possible
with a rag and several pins partly extracted with a slightly ground
down chain tool. I crudely simulated some wear by stuffing a small
bolt through the chain sleeve, putting the bolt into an electric
drill, and slinging the remaining oil all over my shop. (Hint: Do
this part outdoors).

As expected, there was some oil smearing on the extracted pins from
lube trapped between the side plates but very little appeared on the
pin itself. There was no sign of an even coating or the accumulation
of sufficient oil to provide lubrication. (Sorry, no photos because I
was doing this by myself and decided not to slop oil on my camera by
trying to take photos).

I also tried to weigh the chain segment after lubrication and again
after a solvent bath see how much oil would cling to the chain. The
density of machine oil is 0.91 grams/ml (at 20C). I didn't notice
much of a difference before and after probably because my cheap drug
dealers electronic scale only has 1 gram resolution. I should repeat
this test using as many chains as possible and with a much better
resolution scale.

Think of this way. You mix some solvent and oil or wax and paint it
on some non-porous surface. The solvent evaporates, leaving islands
of oil or wax. The empty space, previously occupied by the solvent,
might eventually fill by the oil or wax migrating under compression
but only at the expense of film thickness. In other words, the
solvent might leave a void. If foam is used, the volume of the
bubbles are huge compared to lube, which should leave equally huge
voids. Therefore, I suspect that foam is an inferior carrier compared
to solvent.

Next time you lube a chain, mix some fluorescent dye with the lube and
see where it really goes and where it clings.

Before you find additional faults in my procedure, please note that
this was a hastily contrived test intended to test the assumption that
a solvent (or foam) carrier might be useable as a delivery mechanism.
There's plenty of room for improvement. For example, heating the
chain or mixture, applying it in a pressure cooker, or possibly
ultrasonic agitation might help improve delivery. However, my
preliminary observations seem to indicate that solvent delivery
doesn't work as well as advertised. (I didn't test foam delivery).
Suggestions are always welcome.

It's the same way liquid hot wax gets into the chain, but the wax
hardens and is quickly rubbed off. That's why this observation "If you
use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often. In some
cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very quickly
and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas" is especially
relevant. Or as one manufacturer states "As the foam breaks, the
lubricant penetrates into wire rope and roller chain mechanisms,
depositing a molybdenum disulfide based grease to provide superior
lubricating properties to surfaces."

I don't think it should surprise anyone that the best lubricant for a
chain is a lubricant designed for a chain.


Trust, but verify.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Ads
  #42  
Old April 29th 18, 06:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Dry lube?

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:24:45 -0700, sms
wrote:
1. Ensure that the lubricant doesn't just remain on the surface but
penetrates into the pins and rollers. It needs to be thin to do this.


Again, oil does not penetrate steel unless it is porous. Please
adjust your terminology accordingly.

What makes oil adhere to the surface of steel is that it has a low
surface tension
paraffin oil 48 mN/m
while water puddles or runs off because the surface tension is higher.
water 72 mN/m
Surface tension tables:
http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/general_physics/2_2/2_2_5.html

2. Ensure that the lubricant is not quickly displaced. Solid lubricants
like wax are not suitable unless you could rig something up that keeps
the chain hot and the wax fluid. Maybe this butane torch
https://www.harborfreight.com/butane-micro-torch-63170.html keeping
the chain hot.


Why not do it the way most other industries remove air bubbles from
casting and molds? Use a vacuum chamber. Dump the chain and oil in a
can. Put it in a vacuum chamber (pressure cooker), suck the air out,
wait a while, and you have a perfectly lubricated chain devoid of any
trapped air. It may not stay lubricated, but it should last a few
rides. Don't forget the filter between the vacuum chamber and the
vacuum pump and to check if the lube oil is compatible with the seals
used in the vacuum pump:

What I have (2 stage):
https://shop.edwardsvacuum.com/produ...4902/view.aspx
Much cheaper (only single stage):
https://www.harborfreight.com/25-cfm-vacuum-pump-98076.html
I could try it, but don't want to wreck my good vacuum pump. I'll see
if I can scrounge a Harbor Freight version.

Interesting reading:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com
Try plugging "bicycle chain" into the search box.
For example:
Improving Chain Lubrication
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/729/chain-lubrication
In a humid environment (such as a pulp mill), or where
chains are subject to water wash-down (such as food plants),
it is imperative to displace water from the chain on a
regular basis by using a penetrating type of chain lubricant.
Regular oil and grease are nonpolar and therefore unable
to grab onto the water and remove it. A polar organic
solvent included in the formulation of the lubricant works
best.

If the chain is running through and/or is immersed in
water, a combination of penetrating oil and tacky grease
is the best method. This forces the water out initially,
and then seals the inside of the chain to prevent water
from getting in.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #43  
Old April 29th 18, 07:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Dry lube?

On 4/29/2018 12:41 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:24:45 -0700, sms
wrote:
1. Ensure that the lubricant doesn't just remain on the surface but
penetrates into the pins and rollers. It needs to be thin to do this.


Again, oil does not penetrate steel unless it is porous. Please
adjust your terminology accordingly.

What makes oil adhere to the surface of steel is that it has a low
surface tension
paraffin oil 48 mN/m
while water puddles or runs off because the surface tension is higher.
water 72 mN/m
Surface tension tables:
http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/general_physics/2_2/2_2_5.html

2. Ensure that the lubricant is not quickly displaced. Solid lubricants
like wax are not suitable unless you could rig something up that keeps
the chain hot and the wax fluid. Maybe this butane torch
https://www.harborfreight.com/butane-micro-torch-63170.html keeping
the chain hot.


Why not do it the way most other industries remove air bubbles from
casting and molds? Use a vacuum chamber. Dump the chain and oil in a
can. Put it in a vacuum chamber (pressure cooker), suck the air out,
wait a while, and you have a perfectly lubricated chain devoid of any
trapped air. It may not stay lubricated, but it should last a few
rides. Don't forget the filter between the vacuum chamber and the
vacuum pump and to check if the lube oil is compatible with the seals
used in the vacuum pump:

What I have (2 stage):
https://shop.edwardsvacuum.com/produ...4902/view.aspx
Much cheaper (only single stage):
https://www.harborfreight.com/25-cfm-vacuum-pump-98076.html
I could try it, but don't want to wreck my good vacuum pump. I'll see
if I can scrounge a Harbor Freight version.

Interesting reading:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com
Try plugging "bicycle chain" into the search box.
For example:
Improving Chain Lubrication
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/729/chain-lubrication
In a humid environment (such as a pulp mill), or where
chains are subject to water wash-down (such as food plants),
it is imperative to displace water from the chain on a
regular basis by using a penetrating type of chain lubricant.
Regular oil and grease are nonpolar and therefore unable
to grab onto the water and remove it. A polar organic
solvent included in the formulation of the lubricant works
best.

If the chain is running through and/or is immersed in
water, a combination of penetrating oil and tacky grease
is the best method. This forces the water out initially,
and then seals the inside of the chain to prevent water
from getting in.


speaking of food processing machinery, we tried this for
chain and found it wanting:

https://www.lubriplate.com/Products/...L-2-Spray.aspx

it doesn't foam so much as clot and despite salesman's spiel
didn't penetrate chain rollers.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #44  
Old April 29th 18, 10:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Dry lube?

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 13:22:23 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
speaking of food processing machinery, we tried this for
chain and found it wanting:
https://www.lubriplate.com/Products/...L-2-Spray.aspx
it doesn't foam so much as clot and despite salesman's spiel
didn't penetrate chain rollers.


Well, you can always spray some on your sandwich. It's Kosher:
https://www.lubriplate.com/PDFs/PDS/8_6_FML-0-1-2.aspx
"These products are certified OU Kosher Pareve"
"These products are Halal certified"

Looks like a zinc oxide (not lithium) white grease based product.
https://www.lubriplate.com/PDFs/SDS/S0026-FMLAerosol.html
Ingredient name % CAS number
White mineral oil (petroleum) 25 to 50 8042-47-5
Distillates (petroleum),
hydrotreated light 25 to 50 64742-47-8
Petroleum gases, liquefied 10 to 25 68476-85-7
zinc oxide 3 to 5 1314-13-2

Ok, it's a tooth paste and mineral oil mix. I guess it's edible but
it probably doesn't taste very good. Maybe add some sugar. However,
ZnO is also an abrasive (as in toothpaste), which doesn't seem like a
good idea to include in a lubricant. Ask your tribometrist or
dietician for details.

Hmmm... I think I just lost my appetite.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #45  
Old April 29th 18, 11:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Dry lube?

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 14:55:31 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Looks like a zinc oxide (not lithium) white grease based product.
https://www.lubriplate.com/PDFs/SDS/S0026-FMLAerosol.html
Ingredient name % CAS number
White mineral oil (petroleum) 25 to 50 8042-47-5
Distillates (petroleum),
hydrotreated light 25 to 50 64742-47-8
Petroleum gases, liquefied 10 to 25 68476-85-7
zinc oxide 3 to 5 1314-13-2


Oh-oh. There's a problem. On Pg 8, under "Specific target organ
toxicity (single exposure)", the SDS sheet offers:
Distillates (petroleum),
hydrotreated light Category 3. Narcotic effects.

Narcotic effects? Does this mean I could get high sniffing the FML
lube? Try to explain to the police and insurance company that your
cycling accident was caused by sniffing your food safe chain lube.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #46  
Old April 30th 18, 12:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Dry lube?

On 4/29/2018 10:03 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Sounds great, except when I tried various home brew solvent carriers
last summer, it didn't quite work.


Of course you also believed that I could glue two halves of a broken
brake lever together.

Sometimes homebrew solutions are just not going to work and are more
costly then purchasing a mass produced product specifically designed for
a particular use.
  #47  
Old April 30th 18, 12:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Dry lube?

On 4/29/2018 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:24:45 -0700, sms
wrote:
1. Ensure that the lubricant doesn't just remain on the surface but
penetrates into the pins and rollers. It needs to be thin to do this.


Again, oil does not penetrate steel unless it is porous. Please
adjust your terminology accordingly.


I suspect that you're not a lot of fun at parties.

Fine, "it penetrates into the spaces between the pins and rollers."
  #48  
Old April 30th 18, 02:15 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Dry lube?

On 4/29/2018 12:24 PM, sms wrote:
On 4/28/2018 10:21 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:19:26 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
On 4/28/2018 1:30 AM,
wrote:

Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already.

Can't stop. Can't stop. Worried that someone on the Internet will
believe Frank, as unlikely as that might seem to most people here.

Hmm, who do you want to believe long-time bicycle shop owners & expert
bicycle mechanics, chain experts, and Jobst, or Frank? Tough
decision--not.

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y

"Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers
Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains"


For the record: Jobst didn't keep up with latest developments the last
10 years he was around, I disagreed with some of Sheldons statements
and Mike had als o some personal preferences and opinions.


Mike and Sheldon both worked at bicycle shops (Mike owns a shop) and if
they take the time to explain the issues with hot waxing I think they
are worth listening to. Jobst had a lot of opinions of course, but most
were based on facts and logic, something that trumps the emotional
feeling of hot waxing.

Of course the trend now appears to be to mix hot wax with some sort of
oil. Once the wax hardens and is displaced then at least the oil is
still providing lubrication, but the wax is not, and there's less oil
than if you just used oil alone.


sigh We really are in the post-truth era, aren't we?

Scharf [sms] gives us his product advertisements and his unproven
opinions. He praises those who agree with him as "all the experts."
There he is, staunch in his uninformed opinions.

Then there are the experiences of those of us who actually lubricate our
chains this way, and have done so for decades. We know it works - but
somehow that doesn't count.

And I've given links to test results - that is, real measured data that
verify what we users have been claiming. Scharf never gives measured
data to counter that. In fact, he never admits to reading it.

Try Velo Magazine, March 2013, pp. 62 - 64.
https://www.scribd.com/document/2620...ficiency-Tests

To quote the summary that follows the numerical results: " And for the
meticulous mechanic, happy to pull a chain off and re-wax it every few
weeks, cheap hardware store paraffin is unbeatable." Unbeatable meant it
beat 54 other chain lubricants by delivering both highest efficiency and
longest chain life.

Here's some more, old enough that I had to scan the hardcopy, but still
valid:
https://flic.kr/p/dkUGq6
https://flic.kr/p/dkULS1

Again, comparing 11 different chain lubricants, paraffin delivered by
far the longest chain life. And that was extensive real world, on-road
testing.

Those tests were done using a hot bath for applying wax. I'm not that
diligent; I use a method which is probably not quite as good. But my
on-the-bike method is faster and more convenient, and still keeps the
bike and chain free of the black gunk that most other chain lubricants
generate.

I'm not saying anyone has to use wax. But I wish Scharf would quit
pretending there is no data that disproves his nonsense.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #49  
Old April 30th 18, 02:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Dry lube?

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:01:33 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/29/2018 10:03 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Sounds great, except when I tried various home brew solvent carriers
last summer, it didn't quite work.


Of course you also believed that I could glue two halves of a broken
brake lever together.


Nice change of subject. However, I'm bored so I'll lecture you on the
fine art of electrolysis generated hydrogen torch welding, also known
as an "oxygen hydrogen water welder":
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=oxygen+hydrogen+water+welder
It use electricity to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, feed
them to an oxygen-hydrogen torch or "HHO torch":
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=hho+torch
which is then used to weld the aluminum. This is mostly about
oxy-fuel welding, but oxy-hydrogen is similar:
https://www.tinmantech.com/education/articles/aluminum-welding-using-oxy-fuel-welding-on-aircraft-aluminum-sheet.php
(4 parts). I don't currently own one of these welders. I practice
with a friends water welder, currently learning to butt weld two
pieces of 0.040" aluminum sheet metal together. At this point, I'm
not very skilled at this style of welding, but am getting better. Had
you elected not to throw away the broken brake lever, and sent it to
me, I'm quite sure I could have welded it back together or had my
friend do the work.

Sometimes homebrew solutions are just not going to work and are more
costly then purchasing a mass produced product specifically designed for
a particular use.


I see that you only favor ecologically correct solutions when they are
economically advantageous. Well, that's a common attitude today and
probably will be for at least few more decades. Eventually, aluminum
prices will rise and you might find repair more appealing than
replace. Meanwhile, I continue to repair things at a loss for the
simple pleasure of keeping them out of the municipal dump.
https://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
In the unlikely event that you find my point of view compelling, start
he
https://ifixit.org/pledge




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #50  
Old April 30th 18, 03:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Dry lube?

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 18:20:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:01:33 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/29/2018 10:03 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Sounds great, except when I tried various home brew solvent carriers
last summer, it didn't quite work.


Of course you also believed that I could glue two halves of a broken
brake lever together.


Nice change of subject. However, I'm bored so I'll lecture you on the
fine art of electrolysis generated hydrogen torch welding, also known
as an "oxygen hydrogen water welder":
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=oxygen+hydrogen+water+welder
It use electricity to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, feed
them to an oxygen-hydrogen torch or "HHO torch":
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=hho+torch
which is then used to weld the aluminum. This is mostly about
oxy-fuel welding, but oxy-hydrogen is similar:
https://www.tinmantech.com/education/articles/aluminum-welding-using-oxy-fuel-welding-on-aircraft-aluminum-sheet.php
(4 parts). I don't currently own one of these welders. I practice
with a friends water welder, currently learning to butt weld two
pieces of 0.040" aluminum sheet metal together. At this point, I'm
not very skilled at this style of welding, but am getting better. Had
you elected not to throw away the broken brake lever, and sent it to
me, I'm quite sure I could have welded it back together or had my
friend do the work.


Off topic question here.

How much heat do these water based systems develop. You talk about
welding .040" aluminum but could the same torch be used as a
replacement for a small oxy-acetylene system for general use. Welding,
brazing, etc?


Sometimes homebrew solutions are just not going to work and are more
costly then purchasing a mass produced product specifically designed for
a particular use.


I see that you only favor ecologically correct solutions when they are
economically advantageous. Well, that's a common attitude today and
probably will be for at least few more decades. Eventually, aluminum
prices will rise and you might find repair more appealing than
replace. Meanwhile, I continue to repair things at a loss for the
simple pleasure of keeping them out of the municipal dump.
https://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
In the unlikely event that you find my point of view compelling, start
he
https://ifixit.org/pledge

--
Cheers,

John B.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
To Lube Or Not To Lube Shifter Cables That is the Question! [email protected] Techniques 3 June 11th 06 01:24 AM
To Lube Or Not To Lube Shifter Cables That is the Question! MykalCrooks Techniques 1 June 9th 06 06:48 AM
To Lube Or Not To Lube Shifter Cables That is the Question! Chris M Techniques 2 June 9th 06 01:30 AM
To Lube Or Not To Lube Shifter Cables That is the Question! Qui si parla Campagnolo Techniques 0 June 8th 06 09:05 PM
To Lube Or Not To Lube Shifter Cables That is the Question! [email protected] Techniques 0 June 8th 06 08:50 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.