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Biker Killed by Mountain Lion



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 9th 04, 11:24 PM
Tim
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

"DH" wrote in message ...
I don't know what the solution is. Do you hunt down the animal for
killing even though that's what it does. If it were a domesticated dog,
we would put it to sleep. Do we kill bears that have attacked humans?
What's the manner we deal with mountain lions?

How should this be handled?


Actually, I see no dilemma. In the wild, if WE were a threat to the
lion, then the lion would have no qualms about attacking and killing
us. Lions kill for territory. The lion would, had it been permitted
to live, represent a continuing threat to our kind.

And lions get each and every single bit of their food from animals
that were alive just before the lion killed them (unless the lion is
kill-stealing, which happens a lot) because, to lions, might makes
right.

Some would argue that the lion was only doing what it normally does;
to which I'd respond, and humans are doing what humans should be
doing.

Some might argue that the lions were there first, to which you'd have
to acknowledge that lions fight for territory, often usurping control
from another lion which was previously there. So the concept of being
killed for territory is not alien to the species involved.

And yes, bears that have attacked humans are killed (if they are
tracked down).
Ads
  #12  
Old January 9th 04, 11:53 PM
FloridaBent
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

One mountain biker is killed, another injured by a mountain lion in
Orange County, California...The lion is still on the loose.


In the story linked to, the mountain lion was probably killed. How is that "on
the loose?"


Bill, riding bent in Florida
(hence the screen name)
To e-mail, remove undies
  #13  
Old January 9th 04, 11:55 PM
DH
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion


"Bigfrog" wrote in message
om...
"DH" wrote in message

...
I don't know what the solution is. Do you hunt down the animal for
killing even though that's what it does. If it were a domesticated

dog,
we would put it to sleep. Do we kill bears that have attacked humans?
What's the manner we deal with mountain lions?

How should this be handled?


Domesticated or wild, animals that kill a human for any reason are,
and should be put down. Your sympathies are misplaced, a mountain
lion killing a humans is not "what it does". This is a deadly
abbreration that I'm sure has left family and friends of the victims
devastated. I'm equally sure that the encroachment of humans into to
the previouslly wild domain of forest creatures has created havoc with
their ability to survive and otherwise thrive. It's a problem, but
having group thearapy for a killer mountain lion wont resolve the
problem.

Bill


This is a problem I've seen many times. I thought I wrote very clearly,
without emotion, without judgment and you read things into what I wrote
that are only in your head. ___Reread what I wrote and then reread your
reply.___ These animals kill other large animals - we also happen to be a
large animal. I thought I wrote without emotion. My 'sympathies' are
nonexistent. I do not know a solution when a killer animal and human
occupy the same place.


  #14  
Old January 10th 04, 12:33 AM
Jerry Rhodes
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

"DH" wrote in message

. Do we kill bears that have attacked humans?


Yes

What's the manner we deal with mountain lions?


Get the dogs, run it down and shoot it.

How should this be handled?


Just like I said. They got the dogs, ran it down and shot it.

Pumas/cougars/panthers/mountain lions are not an endagered species.

When an animal starts attacking humans it has entered my very personal
ecological niche and I kill it. I don't fault the lion for it is
doing what is natural(hunting prey) and I don't fault myself for I am
doing what is natural for me (self defense).

Jerry (top of the food chain) Rhodes
  #15  
Old January 10th 04, 01:12 AM
DH
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

Pumas/cougars/panthers/mountain lions are not an endagered species.

A quick google search and CTRL + C and CTRL + V ....

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/lion/f_g4800.html

CALIFORNIA CODES
FISH AND GAME CODE
SECTION 4800-4809

4800. (a) The mountain lion (genus Felis) is a specially protected
mammal under the laws of this state.
(b) It is unlawful to take, injure, possess, transport, import, or
sell any mountain lion or any part or product thereof, except as
specifically provided in this chapter or in Chapter 2 (commencing
with Section 2116) of Division 3. This chapter does not prohibit the
sale or possession of any mountain lion or any part or product
thereof, when the owner can demonstrate that the mountain lion, or
part or product thereof, was in the person's possession on June 6,
1990.
(c) Any violation of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by
imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or a fine
of not more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both that
fine and imprisonment. An individual is not guilty of a violation of
this section if it is demonstrated that, in taking or injuring a
mountain lion, the individual was acting in self-defense or in
defense of others.
(d) Section 219 does not apply to this chapter. Neither the
commission nor the department shall adopt any regulation that
conflicts with or supersedes any of the provisions of this chapter.

4800. (a) The commission shall regulate the mountain lion (genus
Felis) pursuant to Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 200) of
Division 1, and the department shall carry out the regulations of the
commission and manage those mammals in the same manner as it carries
out other regulations of the commission and manages other mammals
that are not rare, endangered, or threatened species under the laws
of this state.
(b) Pursuant to subdivision (a), the department shall prepare,
submit to the commission for approval, and implement a mountain lion
management plan that promotes health and safety protection and
protection for livestock, domestic animals, other property, and other
wildlife species and that implements Section 1801. The plan shall
identify zones based on the department's estimates of mountain lion
densities developed from the best information available to the
department. The department shall designate the zones that are
priority zones where the removal of individual mountain lions to
protect public safety, livestock, domestic animals, other property,
and other wildlife species has not alleviated threats. In
designating priority zones, the department may consider, based on the
best information available to the department, where the mountain
lion population is depleting other wildlife species or where the
mountain lion population may cause any of the following: (1) the
extinction of threatened or endangered species; (2) mountain lion
depredation of livestock and domestic animals; or (3) a threat to
public health and safety. The taking of a mountain lion that is
attacking an individual member of a wildlife species other than
threatened or endangered species shall not be authorized based on
that act alone. Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, the
department shall not manage, regulate, or take mountain lions in a
priority zone, as provided in this section or Section 4801, unless
there is a plan for that zone and the department makes a finding that
managing, regulating, or taking mountain lions is consistent with
the plan for that zone and maintains a viable mountain lion
population in that zone.
(c) It is unlawful to take, injure, possess, transport, import, or
sell any mountain lion or any part or product thereof, except as
specifically provided in this chapter, in Chapter 2 (commencing with
Section 2116) of Division 3, or as prescribed in regulations of the
commission. This chapter does not prohibit the sale or possession of
any mountain lion or any part or product thereof, when the owner can
demonstrate that the mountain lion, or part or product thereof, was
in the person's possession on June 6, 1990.
(d) Any violation of this section is a misdemeanor punishable by
imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year, or a fine
of not more than ten thousand dollars ($10,000), or by both that
fine and imprisonment. An individual is not guilty of a violation of
this section if it is demonstrated that, in taking or injuring a
mountain lion, the individual was acting in self-defense or in
defense of others.
(e) In the case of conflict between this chapter and the
California Endangered Species Act, Chapter 1.5 (commencing with
Section 2050) of Division 3, the California Endangered Species Act
shall prevail.

4801. The department may remove or take any mountain lion, or
authorize an appropriate local agency with public safety
responsibility to remove or take any mountain lion, that is perceived
to be an imminent threat to public health or safety.

4801. The department may remove or take, or authorize its designee,
including, but not limited to, an appropriate governmental agency
with public safety responsibility, an appropriate governmental agency
with wildlife management responsibility, or an owner of land, to
remove or take, one or more mountain lions that are perceived to be
an imminent threat to public health or safety or livestock anywhere
in the state except within the state park system. Within the state
park system, the department may remove or take, or authorize an
appropriate governmental agency with public safety responsibility or
an appropriate governmental agency with wildlife management
responsibility to remove or take, one or more mountain lions that are
perceived to be an imminent threat to public health or safety only
with the concurrence of the Department of Parks and Recreation.

4801.5. Prior to submittal to, and approval by, the commission of
the plan required pursuant to subdivision (b) of Section 4800, the
department may remove or take any mountain lion, or authorize an
appropriate local agency with public safety responsibility to remove
or take any mountain lion, that is perceived to be an imminent threat
to public health or safety.

4802. Any person, or the employee or agent of a person, whose
livestock or other property is being or has been injured, damaged, or
destroyed by a mountain lion may report that fact to the department
and request a permit to take the mountain lion.

4803. Upon receipt of a report pursuant to Section 4802, the
department, or any animal damage control officer specifically
authorized by the department to carry out this responsibility, shall
immediately take the action necessary to confirm that there has been
depredation by a mountain lion as reported. The confirmation process
shall be completed as quickly as possible, but in no event more than
48 hours after receiving the report. If satisfied that there has
been depredation by a mountain lion as reported, the department shall
promptly issue a permit to take the depredating mountain lion.

4804. In order to ensure that only the depredating mountain lion
will be taken, the department shall issue the permit pursuant to
Section 4803 with the following conditions attached:
(a) The permit shall expire 10 days after issuance.
(b) The permit shall authorize the holder to begin pursuit not
more than one mile from the depredation site.
(c) The permit shall limit the pursuit of the depredating mountain
lion to within a 10-mile radius from the location of the reported
damage or destruction.

4805. Whenever immediate authorization will materially assist in
the pursuit of the particular mountain lion believed to be
responsible for the depredation reported pursuant to Section 4802,
the department or the animal damage control officer may orally
authorize the pursuit and taking of the depredating mountain lion,
and the department shall issue a written permit for the period
previously authorized as soon as practicable after the oral
authorization.

4806. Any person issued a permit pursuant to Section 4803 or 4805
shall report, by telephone within 24 hours, the capturing, injuring,
or killing of any mountain lion to an office of the department or, if
telephoning is not practicable, in writing within five days after
the capturing, injuring, or killing of the mountain lion. At the
time of making the report of the capturing, injuring, or killing, the
holder of the permit shall make arrangements to turn over the
mountain lion or the entire carcass of the mountain lion which has
been recovered to a representative of the department and shall do so
in a timely manner.

4806. Any person who has captured, injured, or killed a mountain
lion within a priority zone identified in a mountain lion management
plan under Section 4800 or who has been issued a permit pursuant to
Section 4803 or 4805 shall report, by telephone within 24 hours, the
capturing, injuring, or killing of any mountain lion to an office of
the department or, if telephoning is not practicable, in writing
within five days after the capturing, injuring, or killing of the
mountain lion. At the time of making the report of the capturing,
injuring, or killing, the person authorized to take the mountain lion
under a mountain lion management plan approved pursuant to Section
4800 shall make the remains of the mountain lion available for
inspection to department personnel upon their request pursuant to
regulations adopted by the commission and the holder of the permit
under Section 4803 or 4805 shall make arrangements to turn over the
mountain lion or the entire carcass of the mountain lion which has
been recovered to a representative of the department and shall do so
in a timely manner.

4807. (a) Any mountain lion that is encountered while in the act of
pursuing, inflicting injury to, or killing livestock, or domestic
animals, may be taken immediately by the owner of the property or the
owner's employee or agent. The taking shall be reported within 72
hours to the department. The department shall investigate the
depredation, and, if the mountain lion was captured, injured, or
killed, the mountain lion or the entire carcass of the mountain lion
which has been recovered shall be turned over to the department.
Upon satisfactorily completing the investigation and receiving the
mountain lion or the carcass, if recovered, the department shall
issue a permit confirming that the requirements of this section have
been met with respect to the particular mountain lion taken under
these circumstances.
(b) The department shall undertake a complete necropsy on any
returned mountain lion carcass and report the findings to the
commission. The commission shall compile the reported findings and
prepare an annual written report that shall be submitted to the
Legislature not later than the January 15 next following the year in
which the mountain lion was taken.

4808. As used in this chapter, "agent" means the agent or employee
of the owner of the damaged or destroyed property, any county or city
predator control officer, any employee of the Animal Damage Control
Section of the United States Department of Agriculture, any
departmental personnel, or any authorized or permitted houndsman
registered with the department as possessing the requisite experience
and having no prior conviction of any provision of this code or
regulation adopted pursuant to this code. A plea of nolo contendere
is a conviction for purposes of this section.

4809. Mountain lions authorized to be taken pursuant to this
chapter shall be taken by the most effective means available to take
the mountain lion causing the damage or destruction, except that no
mountain lion shall be taken by means of poison, leg-hold or
metal-jawed traps, and snares.


  #16  
Old January 10th 04, 01:32 AM
Perry Butler
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

Perhaps it wasn't a mountain lion but Mikey V who went off the deep end!

Perry B



"Dennis" wrote in message
om...
One mountain biker is killed, another injured by a mountain lion in
Orange County, California...The lion is still on the loose.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/2752128/detail.html



  #17  
Old January 10th 04, 01:35 AM
Tom Sherman
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

Pat wrote:

...
It's unusual because Mountain Lions, as a species, do not hunt humans. This
lion is different. Around humans, they have been timid, shy, and reclusive.


A mountain lion attacking mountain bikers - I suspect the mountain lion
was trained by M*k* V*nd*m*n.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities

  #18  
Old January 10th 04, 02:08 AM
Tom Sherman
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

Perry Butler wrote:

Perhaps it wasn't a mountain lion but Mikey V who went off the deep end!


The consensus on the Usenet cycling groups is that event occurred quote
some time ago.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities

  #19  
Old January 10th 04, 03:04 AM
Joseph Kochanowski
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

(Edward Dolan) wrote in message . com...
"DH" wrote in message ...

I don't know what the solution is. Do you hunt down the animal for
killing even though that's what it does. If it were a domesticated dog,
we would put it to sleep. Do we kill bears that have attacked humans?
What's the manner we deal with mountain lions?

How should this be handled?


Man in his present state of society cannot really coexist with the big
killer carnivores. Even in a place like Yellowstone it is an eternal
dilemma. Complete separation of man and killer beast is the only
solution, even if it means that you have got to kill off all the big
carnivores. That historically is how the problem has always been
handled of course until fairly recently.

With the danger of these animals going extinct due to man's occupation
of every habitable square inch of the earth's surface we (the more
advanced Western civilizations) have decided to save them from that
fate. I am afraid however that zoos are the only solution. Sad but
true! Or does any one here on this newsgroup wish to sacrifice his
life so that the beasties can live? As Lorenzo would say, I thought
not!

The only solution that occurs to me is to set aside really enormous
kingdoms of nature (bio-preserves) and keep man away from them except
as infrequent visitors. This might be the best possible use for huge
areas of Canada and Siberia as well as central Asia and other
wastelands scattered about the earth. That is actually what we are
attempting to do right now but on a much smaller scale, but man pokes
his nose everywhere, even in places like the back country of
Yellowstone and Glacier.

But Orange County in Southern California should not be set aside for a
nature preserve for killer carnivores. Actually, I am not much in
favor of there even being bears and wolves in Yellowstone. To see a
pack of wolves ripping and tearing some poor beast apart while it is
still living is a horror not to be forgotten.

Since man has taken over the earth anyway we might as well design it
more to suit our purposes. We are going to exterminate the Wild and
maybe it is good riddance. We came from the Wild ourselves in terms of
our evolution but now maybe it is time to cut the tether. We shall
become like the Gods and rule without reference to anything outside
ourselves. Of course, we shall end up living in a world where our only
companions will be cockroaches and rats, but that is all we deserve
anyway.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota


I would like to see more carnivorous animals where I live. Evolution
has been taking a detour among the humans I coexist with. The
successful individuals have to pay more taxes than the lazy ones who
collect free government benefits.The man eating animals should set
evolution and the survival of the fittest on the right track again.
Carnivorous beasts would certainly help with the drunk driver problem.
Drunks would be easy prey for the beasts. This would also be a good
motivation for all the children who are having a problem with staying
in shape. Their parents could warn them that playing computer games
too much or watching TV means the big cats will get them. This could
certainly help solve the increase of childhood diabetes.I would like
to see any problem that exist with the beasts settled by an ACLU
lawyer confronting the wild animals directly. I am not afraid of a
mountain lion or wolf pack while I ride my recumbent streamliner. With
any luck the wild animals would help improve the performance of
recumbents on the market.
  #20  
Old January 10th 04, 03:31 AM
William Higley, Sr.
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Default Biker Killed by Mountain Lion

It would be interesting to know a little more of the pre-event history.

About twenty years ago my two children were walking home after school. It
was about a half mile walk along the gravel driveway through the woods to
our house. When they entered our property my son told my daughter that she
had forgotten to close the gate. She told him there was a cougar lying
behind the stump on the other side of the road. When he went back to close
the gate he saw the cougar as well. During the next week the cougar was
spotted several times in peoples yards and driveways. Nearly everyone that
had "contact" with the cougar called the "Game and Wildlife" people.

The "Game and Wildlife" people wanted to know if the cougar had attacked any
animals or people? Until the animal had attacked something they were
forbidden from acting. Fortunately for us no one was hurt. I always felt
that the cougar we had spotted was either an older one, run off from his
territory or a young one that was establishing his territory. In either case
I was very nervous about the sightings.

There may have been similar warning signs prior to this event.

William Higley, Sr. (In the Pacific Northwest)
Vision R-50
RANS Rocket
"Dennis" wrote in message
om...
One mountain biker is killed, another injured by a mountain lion in
Orange County, California...The lion is still on the loose.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/2752128/detail.html



 




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