need spring-energy-storage mechanism

On Tue, 29 May 2007 12:47:29 GMT, Trevor Jones
wrote:

Gasoline motor.

Nobody's yet found an effective way to store as much energy as that,
in as little weight. Commercially available, cheap, practical.

Any other system is going to cost you more in time, money, and weight,
than it will ever repay in work done, otherwise the world would be
well equipped with just such devices.

Anything that recovers energy on the down trip will cost more to carry
back up.

If time spent should be cost effective, you are already over budget
for the time spent considering such foolishness.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Not necessarily. The fallacy in your logic is that you are ignoring
the stored kinetic energy already in the weight on top of the
mountain. Everyone is thinking in terms of lifting it up and carrying
it down the mountain.

The op has already put the idea of bicycles, trailers, springs and
other wishful or incredibly complex systems in everyone's mind.

Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
do you get it down the mountain?

Throw it off and let it roll down if you can - simple and not too
costly. Parachute? high wire? ground dragging, low wire?

I'd have to see the mountain, but I'll bet there's an easier cheaper
way to do it that doesn't involve a lot of technology or fuel.
--

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On May 29, 4:28 am, Greg Locock wrote:
wrote in news:1180432406.155025.128400
@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

A Flying fox. Used in Italy to get supplies to and from mountain tops.

Two cables, one pulley, two carriers and a long bit of rope.

One cable.

In message .com,
writes
i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

I wouldn't want to go ANYWHERE NEAR a spring that contained that sort of
stored energy. A big clock spring contains a few tens of foot-pounds of
energy, and if it lets go in the wrong place at the wrong time can do
enormous damage. You are talking about something with foot-tons of
energy associated with a very thin metal "blade" many, many feet long.
Riding the bike would be like riding a potential bomb.

Sound like all you really need is an electric bicycle with regenerative
braking. Down the mountain with the brakes on will charge the batteries,
riding back up will discharge them.

A quick Google got me http://www.valuride.com/ebikes_2007_500a.htm. One
of those, or the core components (Motor, batteries and regenerative
braking system) sounds a MUCH SAFER bet.

--
Peter R Cook

On May 29, 6:34 am, default wrote:
On 29 May 2007 02:53:26 -0700, wrote:





i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

A cable system with pulleys top and bottom. Two or more cargo
carrying buckets. Weight of full bucket pulls cargo down and takes
empty bucket up.

If the cargo can't be suspended over the ground, you could still add
wheels to the buckets to let them roll over the high points.

You still have to get people up there to fill buckets - unless you can
get the bats to deposit the guano into the bucket (just kidding).

Perhaps the worker could ride an empty bucket up and just take a taut
cable to ride down (McGuiver style) when his shift is over.

Lot less hassle than bicycles and springs. Low tech with commonly
available parts.
--

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are various railway systems around the world that work on that
principle: two cars linked to a cable, running up and down, sometimes
on a single railway with a cleverly-engineered passing lane in the
middle. If the weight of the payload is sufficient to overcome the
friction in the system, little additional energy would be required.

Careful attention must be paid to the need to stop the payload at the
bottom.

On May 29, 5:53 am, wrote:
i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time.

Which product, how far up the mountain is this location and how steep
is the climb.

there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

Doesn't seem to be viable at the outset.


the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions.

Assuming you can find a spring large enough to power 250 pounds of
bicycle and rider up the hill you will have several kinds of losses.

Winding the spring will take consume energy to spin the geared down
winding train and slide the coils against one-another. Same losses
apply going up the hill. The huge spring and gear train will weigh
maybe 50 pounds and consume energy as it is moved around. Making this
oversized clock mechamism will involve custom rolling for the spring
and machine work for the spring housing and gear train. In short it
will represent a considerable amount of up-front money.

Consider enhancing the local economy and pay local boys by the bushel
delivered.

Alternatively you might think about a self-propelled hot air baloon.

Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold.

A capacitor????? How about a storage battery.

The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure.

Time spent should be cost-effective.

????

On May 29, 2:53 am, wrote:
i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

There's a traditional scheme (used in Virginia a century or two back)
where the harvest was put aboard a barge (or raft?) and sent
downriver.
At the lowland dock, the grain was sold, the barge disassembled and
sold as lumber, and the farmer/boatman took his cash home on foot.

Best solution might be as simple as resigning oneself to walking the
bike back
up the hill. If the road isn't well-maintained, the rider is the
best
mechanism to do that climb, and you can fuel the rider with the cash.

whit3rd wrote:
On May 29, 2:53 am, wrote:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.


There's a traditional scheme (used in Virginia a century or two back)
where the harvest was put aboard a barge (or raft?) and sent
downriver.
At the lowland dock, the grain was sold, the barge disassembled and
sold as lumber, and the farmer/boatman took his cash home on foot.

Best solution might be as simple as resigning oneself to walking the
bike back
up the hill. If the road isn't well-maintained, the rider is the
best
mechanism to do that climb, and you can fuel the rider with the cash.

The OP had not made it clear how far is the "top on the mountain" source
and the "place where it is sold" destination.

There is just a poor reference to "not enough to pay for very much
transport."

If the "existing paved road" is 2 miles, human transport is OK, 200
miles (uphill) would cost a bunch.

Technology will not solve this problem.

donald

wrote:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

I'd recommend an electric bicycle with regenerative braking. Most of the
other solutions are going to require quite a bit of R&D and investment.
Electric bikes are (pretty much) off the shelf technology.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed is n0 subsittute fo accurancy.

On Tue, 29 May 2007 12:47:29 GMT, Trevor Jones
wrote:

wrote:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?...

Gasoline motor.

Nobody's yet found an effective way to store as much energy as that,
in as little weight. Commercially available, cheap, practical.
....
Trevor Jones


I used to see bike motors with friction drive on the tire tread, and
also a fancier power-wheel with engine built in.
I see these fellows making a come back.

I like the kei-trucks from Japan, and I also see some motor scooters
designed Lambretta style - but without the fairings, right now.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

wrote:
i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?
the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

Greg Locock wrote:
A Flying fox. Used in Italy to get supplies to and from mountain tops.
Two cables, one pulley, two carriers and a long bit of rope.

I missed the original post but a regular customer of ours used to grow
it on a mountain on Kauai and bring it back in a fake leg cast - smeared
with cat pee to dissuade the dogs.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971