A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » Regional Cycling » Australia
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Helmet ******s



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old February 4th 04, 02:08 AM
CSB
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 01:45:04 GMT, "Tom Kunich"
wrote:

As is always the case at this time of the year, some ****** has to bring up
helmets in a way that shows helmet ******s as what they are - stupid ass
blowhards:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3451325.stm

You can take the cowboy out of the country but you can't take the hat off of
the cowboy.

Next: baby safety helmet for any time they're put in strollers.


I think we should thank the Australians for being guinea pigs in
studying the effects of helmet compulsion. If they are willing to be
of use to horse riders in other countries as well, then why not?
Ads
  #2  
Old February 4th 04, 05:20 AM
John Doe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s


"CSB" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 01:45:04 GMT, "Tom Kunich"
wrote:

snip

You can take the cowboy out of the country but you can't take the hat off

of
the cowboy.


as it happens a young cattle drover was recently killed by a fall. It is a
tradition for these guys to wear Akubra hats while on a muster. Not anymore
say WorkCover (Govt Dept). The station owner was negligent for not making
these guys wear helmets.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...570335910.html






  #3  
Old February 4th 04, 10:47 AM
Just zis Guy, you know?
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

"John Doe" wrote in message
...

as it happens a young cattle drover was recently killed by a fall. It is

a
tradition for these guys to wear Akubra hats while on a muster. Not

anymore
say WorkCover (Govt Dept). The station owner was negligent for not making
these guys wear helmets.


So that makes the fatality rate - what? one per century?

--
Guy
===

WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk


  #4  
Old February 4th 04, 11:35 AM
Terry Collins
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s


So that makes the fatality rate - what? one per century?


About 15 a year apparently.

Of course, inevitably, they are going to have to apply the same standard
to all those people driving company cars and force them to wear helmets.
  #5  
Old February 4th 04, 12:53 PM
Fred Nieman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

Terry Collins wrote:

So that makes the fatality rate - what? one per century?


About 15 a year apparently.

Of course, inevitably, they are going to have to apply the same standard
to all those people driving company cars and force them to wear helmets.


Car helmets - bad idea, obviously. If it wasn't, racing drivers would
wear them. Oops, they do.

Remember, there were once people (backed up, no doubt, by the results
described in peer reviewed scholarly journals) who claimed it was safer
to be thrown clear of a car in a smash than be strapped in by
seatbelts.

----
If you ride a bicycle for long enough, well, statistically, you're going
to take falls, and take a bad fall sometime or other. If you don't
think so, you are either or both of a) lucky b) a fool.

Collar-bones heal. Scafoids (most times) heal. Broken arms, dislocated
shoulders, skin over ankles, knees, hips, back, arms and hands all
heal. Acquired brain injuries don't heal. Of course, people with ABIs
can and do sometimes regain abilities. But it's not like waiting six
weeks for the cast to come off then simply doing what you did before the
fall - ask someone with an ABI.

A bicycle helmet (probably) didn't save my life, nor did it stop me from
getting smashed and ripped up really badly, which generally happens when
you hit the asphalt at 60 kph. But it did mean I can still walk, talk,
ride a bicycle.

And same goes for all the many less major falls before and after - any a
hit to my bare head, on pavement, car, trail or whatever, might have
meant a concussion, a subdural haemorrhage, or worse. I haven't had to
find this out, though. Because... well, you know why.

I could go on, but time to stop sermonising. And sorry for the
crosspost to u.r.c, but, ummm, you started it? (joke!)

xxx

p
  #6  
Old February 4th 04, 01:36 PM
Just zis Guy, you know?
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

"Fred Nieman" wrote in message
...

Remember, there were once people (backed up, no doubt, by the results
described in peer reviewed scholarly journals) who claimed it was safer
to be thrown clear of a car in a smash than be strapped in by
seatbelts.


Remember there were once people who compared the fatality rates in countries
with and without sealt belt laws and found them to be the same. Obviously
that couldn't be right, so that data was buried. Amazingly, when the UK
introduced sealt belt legislation - driver fatalities stayed the same! But
there was a substantial rise in pedestrian, cyclist and rear-seat passenger
fatalities.

If you ride a bicycle for long enough, well, statistically, you're going
to take falls, and take a bad fall sometime or other. If you don't
think so, you are either or both of a) lucky b) a fool.


There is no inevitability about it.

Collar-bones heal. Scafoids (most times) heal. Broken arms, dislocated
shoulders, skin over ankles, knees, hips, back, arms and hands all
heal. Acquired brain injuries don't heal.


And acquired brain injuries - amazingly - are mostly caused by crashes well
outside the design envelope of hlemets, and by mechanisms which helmets do
nothing to mitigate.

A bicycle helmet (probably) didn't save my life, nor did it stop me from
getting smashed and ripped up really badly, which generally happens when
you hit the asphalt at 60 kph. But it did mean I can still walk, talk,
ride a bicycle.


Or not. Maybe it was your Mk. 1 Skull which did the job. That would be a
reasonable assumption, given that people not wearing helmets also often
survive without significant injury. That's the problem with
helmet-saved-my-life anecdotes, they always attribute the outcome solely to
helmets. Why? Lids are designed for straight impacts at speeds up to about
12mph. Why should we assume that they work in glancing or rotational
impacts at higher speeds? And what about the people who die when wearing
helmets? And the people who don't die when not wearing helmets?

At the population level it's not possible to proive that helmets have any
effect on brain injury. And even then, most cyclists who die of head injury
turn out to have other mortal injuries as well.

The case for helmets really is not half as cut-and-dried as the Liddites
would like us to believe.

The only absolutely repeatable effect of helmet legislation is a substantial
drop in cycling. And the major determinant of risk for cyclists appears to
be the number of cyclists - the more people cycle, the safer it gets.

And same goes for all the many less major falls before and after - any a
hit to my bare head, on pavement, car, trail or whatever, might have
meant a concussion, a subdural haemorrhage, or worse. I haven't had to
find this out, though. Because... well, you know why.



Why? I have had several crashes with and without helmets and there was no
noticeable difference in outcomes. The most serious head injury I ever had
was going through a low doorway. Should we have compulsory helmets in old
buildings? Or only for tall people?

--
Guy
===

WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk


  #7  
Old February 4th 04, 02:56 PM
Mark Thompson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

Remember, there were once people (backed up, no doubt, by the results
described in peer reviewed scholarly journals) who claimed it was safer
to be thrown clear of a car in a smash than be strapped in by
seatbelts.


I love statements like this - wonder if it's true. Prize for whoever can point
out why this statement, if true, is still a load of balls

If you ride a bicycle for long enough, well, statistically, you're going
to take falls, and take a bad fall sometime or other. If you don't
think so, you are either or both of a) lucky b) a fool.


With you so far.

Collar-bones heal. Scafoids (most times) heal. Broken arms, dislocated
shoulders, skin over ankles, knees, hips, back, arms and hands all
heal. Acquired brain injuries don't heal. Of course, people with ABIs
can and do sometimes regain abilities. But it's not like waiting six
weeks for the cast to come off then simply doing what you did before the
fall - ask someone with an ABI.


Go on...

A bicycle helmet (probably) didn't save my life, nor did it stop me from
getting smashed and ripped up really badly, which generally happens when
you hit the asphalt at 60 kph.


yep...

But it did mean I can still walk, talk, ride a bicycle.


Cycle helmets don't protect very well against the sort of impacts that cause
brain damage. See Curnow[1] for a lengthier description of why not. I think
it's online somewhere, though you will certainly be able to get the abstract
from the journals website, or do a search on google (I've posted it here
before).

See also this letter [2]. Unfortunately the git who wrote it didn't provide
references :-(

It's not all bad though - ages ago someone was designing a helmet that would do
better[3] but they haven't turned up on the market yet.

And same goes for all the many less major falls before and after - any a
hit to my bare head, on pavement, car, trail or whatever, might have
meant a concussion, a subdural haemorrhage, or worse. I haven't had to
find this out, though. Because... well, you know why.


Yes, headbutting things is dangerous. But No, cycling is not dangerous. I know
that if you hit your head it could be serious, but the same applies to walking -
and walking appears to be more dangerous than cycling![4] Yes at some point we
are going to fall off our bikes, and sometimes we'll hit our heads and sometimes
it'll be serious and a lot of the time a helmet'll help. But it doesn't change
the fact that cycling is so safe that we needn't feel compelled to wear a
helmet. The extreme unliklihood of suffering brain damage or dying, coupled
with the relatively small protective benefit of the helmet in serious crashes
makes it more understandable when others do not wear a helmet.

I could go on, but time to stop sermonising.


B'ah, at least you're setting two good examples for us u.r.c. reprobates :-)



[1] Curnow W.J., 'The efficacy of bicycle helmets against brain injury' Accident
Analysis and Prevention: 2003; 5.2.03 (You can probably get it via JSTOR)
[2] http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1054.html
[3] http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns9999418
[4] http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBAS...eets/D6536.xls


  #8  
Old February 4th 04, 03:27 PM
Dave Larrington
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

Mark Thompson wrote:

Remember, there were once people (backed up, no doubt, by the results
described in peer reviewed scholarly journals) who claimed it was
safer
to be thrown clear of a car in a smash than be strapped in by
seatbelts.


I love statements like this - wonder if it's true. Prize for whoever
can point out why this statement, if true, is still a load of balls


It was certainly the feeling among racing drivers in the 1950's and given
that the cars were usually made from cheese and tended to douse the driver
in burning fuel when they hit solid objects, it /may/ even have been
correct. However, there were a fair few who were thrown out and and were
still killed, as well as those who stayed aboard and survived.

The late Masten Gregory certainly believed it, though, since he jumped out
of sports-racing cars shortly before they hit the scenery at three-figure
speeds at least twice, and survived to die of a heart attack in 1985.

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
================================================== =========
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
================================================== =========


  #9  
Old February 4th 04, 04:05 PM
Nick Maclaren
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s


In article ,
"Just zis Guy, you know?" writes:
| "John Doe" wrote in message
| ...
|
| as it happens a young cattle drover was recently killed by a fall. It is
| a
| tradition for these guys to wear Akubra hats while on a muster. Not
| anymore
| say WorkCover (Govt Dept). The station owner was negligent for not making
| these guys wear helmets.
|
| So that makes the fatality rate - what? one per century?

Several a year, I would expect. He would have been on either a
horse or a motorbike.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
  #10  
Old February 4th 04, 10:23 PM
Peter Cremasco
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Helmet ******s

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:36:43 -0000, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote:

Remember there were once people who compared the fatality rates in countries
with and without sealt belt laws and found them to be the same. Obviously
that couldn't be right, so that data was buried. Amazingly, when the UK
introduced sealt belt legislation - driver fatalities stayed the same! But
there was a substantial rise in pedestrian, cyclist and rear-seat passenger
fatalities.


Why? Any ideas?


---
Cheers

PeterC

[Rushing headlong: out of control - and there ain't no stopping]
[and there's nothing you can do about it at all]
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Helmet Wankers Tom Kunich General 263 February 13th 04 06:43 AM
Helmet Wankers CSB UK 138 February 13th 04 06:43 AM
Fule face helmet - review Mikefule Unicycling 8 January 14th 04 06:56 PM
Reports from Sweden Garry Jones General 17 October 14th 03 05:23 PM
Reports from Sweden Garry Jones Social Issues 14 October 14th 03 05:23 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.