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On 12/11/2019 12:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, 11 December 2019 11:45:10 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/10/2019 11:03 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 16:51:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Far too much traffic planning these days is to move the automobiles and never mind the bicyclists or pedestrians. I see concrete dividers along many roads now and those dividers run from one roundabout to another. Often what used to be a quick ride from one plaza to another directly across the road is now a two kilometers long bicycle ride down to the next roundabout, around thatr roundabout and back up to the plaza across from the one you just left. Same thing if you're driving a vehicle. So much for saving fuel. And to make it even better; during rush hour those roundabouts have long lines of motor vehicles waiting to get into them because the diameter of the roundabout is so darn small.

I don't know whether it was planning or good luck, but the divider
down the middle of Parker Street is a two-curb side walk. So when I
leave Culver's and want to go to Aldi, I need only wait for a hole in
the one-way traffic -- or a period when everybody is motionless
waiting for the four-way stop at the end of Parker -- cross to the
divider, and wait there for a chance to walk across the other lane.

I think we need lots more of those pedestrian refuge islands. They help
a _lot_ when crossing wide streets.

When I was asked to review the draft active transportation plan for an
adjacent township - a busy, car-oriented shopping mecca - I pushed hard
for the inclusion of refuge islands.

Another treatment intended to help pedestrians crossing wide streets is
a bulb-out or curb extension. At an intersection or other crosswalk, the
curb and sidewalk shift toward the center of the road, taking space that
might otherwise be used as a parking lane. If done on both sides, it
lessens the distance a pedestrian is in the road by 16 to 20 feet.
That's significant and helpful.

But for a cyclist riding along at the edge of the road, that means his
space goes away right at the intersection, and he has to merge into the
general traffic lane. Since we'll always have gutter bunnies, I'm not as
fond of bulb-outs.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I detest those bulb-outs. 1, they stop through traffic whenever some driver wants to make a left hand turn. I see traffic on our main street often backed up for over a block because ONE car is waiting to make a left hand turn off that main street and all the other cars that want to continue past that car can no longer do so because of the bulb-out.

Those concrete divider islands I referenced are the ENTIRE length of the road between roundabouts which means everyone has to drive to the next roundabout in order to turn to drive to a plaza or side street directly across from where they were or wanted to turn left from. What's worse is that in rush hour there's a steady stream of unbroken motor vehicle traffic now whereas before the traffic lights caused breaks in that traffic flow. Crossing those streets now is far more dangerous for both pedestrians and bicyclists now than it was before. Plus, during rush hour the traffic at the roundabouts is often at a standstill as drivers have to wait to enter the roundabout. It's a mess and most drivers here hate them too.

I suspect that roundabouts are better than traffic lights up to a
certain level of traffic. Again, the one nearest me is _far_ better than
the traffic light that used to be there, regarding traffic flow or
(according to hearsay) crash count. And I always hated waiting for a
green light when there was no cross traffic, and wondering whether the
vehicle detector had recognized my bicycle.

I can see there could be roundabout problems if the traffic count is
high enough. I assume someone has data on what traffic count is.

Regarding center islands: I don't think there's any doubt that they are
beneficial to pedestrians. And done properly, they have a reputation for
calming traffic, by presenting a less freeway-like appearance. There's
no need for them to be continuous to serve those functions. More
briefly, one bad installation needn't condemn all installations.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 6:39:41 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 4:17:38 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 1:12:02 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/9/2019 11:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
O
Pedestrians have right-of-way but they too can be ticketed for careless walking. But they do NOT have to cross at cross walks. Hell, in Phoenix they would have to walk a half mile to even find a cross walk.


Phoenix? Right that was AI Automobile's first victim if I
recall.


No, they were regularly killing people off here in California long before that Phoenix pedestrian.

Oh? Got a link or three? "Regularly" implies more than a couple deaths.

I stopped looking for another job. I really don't need the money and they are acting like they are doing me a favor to offer me a job. I'm a problem solver and if they want someone to kiss their ass for a job they can find plenty of college graduates that can't do it correctly.

Sorry about your failure to find work.

- Frank Krygowski

Unlike you I don't have to live out in the woods in a log cabin made of earth and woods so since these employment agencies believe that you get a job solely on the value of a resume and you don't question your good luck. They find it offensive for me to say that I actually have to look at a job to decide to take it or not.

Since you're the world's most stupid ****up you don't seem capable of looking it up yourself and you need to have your hand held: https://tech.co/news/mapping-driverl...fornia-2018-10

"As you can see, Cruise (a GM subsidiary) and Waymo (a Google subsidiary) are the biggest offenders, being involved in 51 and 37 crashes respectively. In fact, Cruise has had cars involved in three separate incidents within 65 yards of each other on Division Street in San Francisco."

You really need your teeth shoved down your throat but with your income I don't expect you to have been able to pay for dental care and lost your teeth long ago.

On Wednesday, 11 December 2019 16:16:18 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/11/2019 12:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, 11 December 2019 11:45:10 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/10/2019 11:03 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 16:51:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Far too much traffic planning these days is to move the automobiles and never mind the bicyclists or pedestrians. I see concrete dividers along many roads now and those dividers run from one roundabout to another. Often what used to be a quick ride from one plaza to another directly across the road is now a two kilometers long bicycle ride down to the next roundabout, around thatr roundabout and back up to the plaza across from the one you just left. Same thing if you're driving a vehicle. So much for saving fuel.. And to make it even better; during rush hour those roundabouts have long lines of motor vehicles waiting to get into them because the diameter of the roundabout is so darn small.

I don't know whether it was planning or good luck, but the divider
down the middle of Parker Street is a two-curb side walk. So when I
leave Culver's and want to go to Aldi, I need only wait for a hole in
the one-way traffic -- or a period when everybody is motionless
waiting for the four-way stop at the end of Parker -- cross to the
divider, and wait there for a chance to walk across the other lane.

I think we need lots more of those pedestrian refuge islands. They help
a _lot_ when crossing wide streets.

When I was asked to review the draft active transportation plan for an
adjacent township - a busy, car-oriented shopping mecca - I pushed hard
for the inclusion of refuge islands.

Another treatment intended to help pedestrians crossing wide streets is
a bulb-out or curb extension. At an intersection or other crosswalk, the
curb and sidewalk shift toward the center of the road, taking space that
might otherwise be used as a parking lane. If done on both sides, it
lessens the distance a pedestrian is in the road by 16 to 20 feet.
That's significant and helpful.

But for a cyclist riding along at the edge of the road, that means his
space goes away right at the intersection, and he has to merge into the
general traffic lane. Since we'll always have gutter bunnies, I'm not as
fond of bulb-outs.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I detest those bulb-outs. 1, they stop through traffic whenever some driver wants to make a left hand turn. I see traffic on our main street often backed up for over a block because ONE car is waiting to make a left hand turn off that main street and all the other cars that want to continue past that car can no longer do so because of the bulb-out.

Those concrete divider islands I referenced are the ENTIRE length of the road between roundabouts which means everyone has to drive to the next roundabout in order to turn to drive to a plaza or side street directly across from where they were or wanted to turn left from. What's worse is that in rush hour there's a steady stream of unbroken motor vehicle traffic now whereas before the traffic lights caused breaks in that traffic flow. Crossing those streets now is far more dangerous for both pedestrians and bicyclists now than it was before. Plus, during rush hour the traffic at the roundabouts is often at a standstill as drivers have to wait to enter the roundabout. It's a mess and most drivers here hate them too.

I suspect that roundabouts are better than traffic lights up to a
certain level of traffic. Again, the one nearest me is _far_ better than
the traffic light that used to be there, regarding traffic flow or
(according to hearsay) crash count. And I always hated waiting for a
green light when there was no cross traffic, and wondering whether the
vehicle detector had recognized my bicycle.

I can see there could be roundabout problems if the traffic count is
high enough. I assume someone has data on what traffic count is.

Regarding center islands: I don't think there's any doubt that they are
beneficial to pedestrians. And done properly, they have a reputation for
calming traffic, by presenting a less freeway-like appearance. There's
no need for them to be continuous to serve those functions. More
briefly, one bad installation needn't condemn all installations.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Here in Waterloo Region Canada the continuous concrete "island/divider" between lanes of the roads between roundabouts are a barrier. As far as waiting to enter a roundabout during rush hour I don't need to look up data on them. All I have to do is sit in the lane waiting my turn to get into the roundabout, where I see a very long line of cars ahead of me also waiting their turn. In those cases the previous traffic lights were far superior to maintaining traffic flow in all directions.

Far too many of these new roundabouts are simply too small a diameter to handle large volumes of traffic in rush hour. That does not consider the simple fact that they are very hazardous to any pedestrian or bicyclist trying to cross the road near them at any time let alone at rush hour.

Cheers

On 12/11/2019 5:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 6:39:41 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 4:17:38 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 1:12:02 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/9/2019 11:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
O
Pedestrians have right-of-way but they too can be ticketed for careless walking. But they do NOT have to cross at cross walks. Hell, in Phoenix they would have to walk a half mile to even find a cross walk.


Phoenix? Right that was AI Automobile's first victim if I
recall.


No, they were regularly killing people off here in California long before that Phoenix pedestrian.

Oh? Got a link or three? "Regularly" implies more than a couple deaths.

I stopped looking for another job. I really don't need the money and they are acting like they are doing me a favor to offer me a job. I'm a problem solver and if they want someone to kiss their ass for a job they can find plenty of college graduates that can't do it correctly.

Sorry about your failure to find work.

- Frank Krygowski

Unlike you I don't have to live out in the woods in a log cabin made of earth and woods so since these employment agencies believe that you get a job solely on the value of a resume and you don't question your good luck. They find it offensive for me to say that I actually have to look at a job to decide to take it or not.

Since you're the world's most stupid ****up you don't seem capable of looking it up yourself and you need to have your hand held: https://tech.co/news/mapping-driverl...fornia-2018-10

"As you can see, Cruise (a GM subsidiary) and Waymo (a Google subsidiary) are the biggest offenders, being involved in 51 and 37 crashes respectively. In fact, Cruise has had cars involved in three separate incidents within 65 yards of each other on Division Street in San Francisco."

You really need your teeth shoved down your throat but with your income I don't expect you to have been able to pay for dental care and lost your teeth long ago.

Does anyone have a way of following Tom's thought processes?


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, 11 December 2019 19:16:09 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/11/2019 5:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 6:39:41 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 4:17:38 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 1:12:02 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/9/2019 11:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
O
Pedestrians have right-of-way but they too can be ticketed for careless walking. But they do NOT have to cross at cross walks. Hell, in Phoenix they would have to walk a half mile to even find a cross walk.


Phoenix? Right that was AI Automobile's first victim if I
recall.


No, they were regularly killing people off here in California long before that Phoenix pedestrian.

Oh? Got a link or three? "Regularly" implies more than a couple deaths..

I stopped looking for another job. I really don't need the money and they are acting like they are doing me a favor to offer me a job. I'm a problem solver and if they want someone to kiss their ass for a job they can find plenty of college graduates that can't do it correctly.

Sorry about your failure to find work.

- Frank Krygowski

Unlike you I don't have to live out in the woods in a log cabin made of earth and woods so since these employment agencies believe that you get a job solely on the value of a resume and you don't question your good luck. They find it offensive for me to say that I actually have to look at a job to decide to take it or not.

Since you're the world's most stupid ****up you don't seem capable of looking it up yourself and you need to have your hand held: https://tech.co/news/mapping-driverl...fornia-2018-10

"As you can see, Cruise (a GM subsidiary) and Waymo (a Google subsidiary) are the biggest offenders, being involved in 51 and 37 crashes respectively. In fact, Cruise has had cars involved in three separate incidents within 65 yards of each other on Division Street in San Francisco."

You really need your teeth shoved down your throat but with your income I don't expect you to have been able to pay for dental care and lost your teeth long ago.

Does anyone have a way of following Tom's thought processes?


--
- Frank Krygowski

I find it a lot easier to simply ignore him unless he posts something relevant to bicycles and even then I check his facts.

Cheers

On 12/11/2019 5:56 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, 11 December 2019 16:16:18 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/11/2019 12:01 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, 11 December 2019 11:45:10 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/10/2019 11:03 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2019 16:51:51 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Far too much traffic planning these days is to move the automobiles and never mind the bicyclists or pedestrians. I see concrete dividers along many roads now and those dividers run from one roundabout to another. Often what used to be a quick ride from one plaza to another directly across the road is now a two kilometers long bicycle ride down to the next roundabout, around thatr roundabout and back up to the plaza across from the one you just left. Same thing if you're driving a vehicle. So much for saving fuel. And to make it even better; during rush hour those roundabouts have long lines of motor vehicles waiting to get into them because the diameter of the roundabout is so darn small.

I don't know whether it was planning or good luck, but the divider
down the middle of Parker Street is a two-curb side walk. So when I
leave Culver's and want to go to Aldi, I need only wait for a hole in
the one-way traffic -- or a period when everybody is motionless
waiting for the four-way stop at the end of Parker -- cross to the
divider, and wait there for a chance to walk across the other lane.

I think we need lots more of those pedestrian refuge islands. They help
a _lot_ when crossing wide streets.

When I was asked to review the draft active transportation plan for an
adjacent township - a busy, car-oriented shopping mecca - I pushed hard
for the inclusion of refuge islands.

Another treatment intended to help pedestrians crossing wide streets is
a bulb-out or curb extension. At an intersection or other crosswalk, the
curb and sidewalk shift toward the center of the road, taking space that
might otherwise be used as a parking lane. If done on both sides, it
lessens the distance a pedestrian is in the road by 16 to 20 feet.
That's significant and helpful.

But for a cyclist riding along at the edge of the road, that means his
space goes away right at the intersection, and he has to merge into the
general traffic lane. Since we'll always have gutter bunnies, I'm not as
fond of bulb-outs.

--
- Frank Krygowski

I detest those bulb-outs. 1, they stop through traffic whenever some driver wants to make a left hand turn. I see traffic on our main street often backed up for over a block because ONE car is waiting to make a left hand turn off that main street and all the other cars that want to continue past that car can no longer do so because of the bulb-out.

Those concrete divider islands I referenced are the ENTIRE length of the road between roundabouts which means everyone has to drive to the next roundabout in order to turn to drive to a plaza or side street directly across from where they were or wanted to turn left from. What's worse is that in rush hour there's a steady stream of unbroken motor vehicle traffic now whereas before the traffic lights caused breaks in that traffic flow. Crossing those streets now is far more dangerous for both pedestrians and bicyclists now than it was before. Plus, during rush hour the traffic at the roundabouts is often at a standstill as drivers have to wait to enter the roundabout. It's a mess and most drivers here hate them too.

I suspect that roundabouts are better than traffic lights up to a
certain level of traffic. Again, the one nearest me is _far_ better than
the traffic light that used to be there, regarding traffic flow or
(according to hearsay) crash count. And I always hated waiting for a
green light when there was no cross traffic, and wondering whether the
vehicle detector had recognized my bicycle.

I can see there could be roundabout problems if the traffic count is
high enough. I assume someone has data on what traffic count is.

Regarding center islands: I don't think there's any doubt that they are
beneficial to pedestrians. And done properly, they have a reputation for
calming traffic, by presenting a less freeway-like appearance. There's
no need for them to be continuous to serve those functions. More
briefly, one bad installation needn't condemn all installations.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Here in Waterloo Region Canada the continuous concrete "island/divider" between lanes of the roads between roundabouts are a barrier. As far as waiting to enter a roundabout during rush hour I don't need to look up data on them. All I have to do is sit in the lane waiting my turn to get into the roundabout, where I see a very long line of cars ahead of me also waiting their turn. In those cases the previous traffic lights were far superior to maintaining traffic flow in all directions.

Far too many of these new roundabouts are simply too small a diameter to handle large volumes of traffic in rush hour. That does not consider the simple fact that they are very hazardous to any pedestrian or bicyclist trying to cross the road near them at any time let alone at rush hour.

Yes, I know; you've said that your center barriers are continuous and
your roundabouts are clotted.

On the other hand, I've seen non-continuous center islands help
pedestrians, and I've seen roundabouts near me have better traffic flow
than the previous traffic light intersections.

So perhaps center barriers should not be continuous? And perhaps we
should learn what traffic volumes are better vs. worse with roundabouts?

Not surprisingly, quite a bit of research has been done on this.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, December 11, 2019 at 4:16:09 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/11/2019 5:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 6:39:41 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 4:17:38 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 1:12:02 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/9/2019 11:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
O
Pedestrians have right-of-way but they too can be ticketed for careless walking. But they do NOT have to cross at cross walks. Hell, in Phoenix they would have to walk a half mile to even find a cross walk.


Phoenix? Right that was AI Automobile's first victim if I
recall.


No, they were regularly killing people off here in California long before that Phoenix pedestrian.

Oh? Got a link or three? "Regularly" implies more than a couple deaths..

I stopped looking for another job. I really don't need the money and they are acting like they are doing me a favor to offer me a job. I'm a problem solver and if they want someone to kiss their ass for a job they can find plenty of college graduates that can't do it correctly.

Sorry about your failure to find work.

- Frank Krygowski

Unlike you I don't have to live out in the woods in a log cabin made of earth and woods so since these employment agencies believe that you get a job solely on the value of a resume and you don't question your good luck. They find it offensive for me to say that I actually have to look at a job to decide to take it or not.

Since you're the world's most stupid ****up you don't seem capable of looking it up yourself and you need to have your hand held: https://tech.co/news/mapping-driverl...fornia-2018-10

"As you can see, Cruise (a GM subsidiary) and Waymo (a Google subsidiary) are the biggest offenders, being involved in 51 and 37 crashes respectively. In fact, Cruise has had cars involved in three separate incidents within 65 yards of each other on Division Street in San Francisco."

You really need your teeth shoved down your throat but with your income I don't expect you to have been able to pay for dental care and lost your teeth long ago.

Does anyone have a way of following Tom's thought processes?


--
- Frank Krygowski

It is no surprise at all that you can't follow my thought processes when the facts make you look like the loud-mouthed fool you are.