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  #191  
Old December 15th 19, 03:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default Bike adjustments

On 12/14/2019 10:19 PM, Chalo wrote:
Bicycle hydraulic brakes are not nearly as reliable or durable as any such brakes used on a motor vehicle (even a cheap motorcycle or scooter).

Also, bicycles don't have the sort of long, tortuous brake line routing that makes cable brakes a bad choice for many motor vehicles. Hydraulic bicycle brakes are just a vanity feature that introduces new modes of failure and service requirements, without bringing any measurable benefits to offset the drawbacks.


Correct.

There's also the longevity issue. Look at older hydraulic brake bicycles
for sale. Inevitably they come with disclaimers like:

"This bike features hydraulic brakes operated by one brake lever. They
do not work, as they probably need to be bled."

and

"Known flaws: -brakes do not work"

If you go online to the manufacturer's web site to try to buy parts to
fix the hydraulic brakes, there's a beautifully detailed diagram of the
system but every part you click on says "At this time, we are unable to
obtain this part. We are sorry for any inconvenience. This part is no
longer available. No alternate or substitute part has been recommended
by the manufacturer."

But there is a good article that details some advantages of hydraulic
disc brakes:
https://support.juicedbikes.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010950991-What-is-the-advantage-of-hydraulic-disc-brakes-
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  #192  
Old December 15th 19, 04:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Bike adjustments

On 12/15/2019 7:33 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 7:20:01 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 15/12/19 2:06 pm, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 6:46:36 PM UTC-8, James wrote:



A phobia of hydraulics? No, I don't have one of those, but I
appreciate the simplicity and reliability of cables. I don't need
self adjustment or extra light feel.

My grip strength is pretty good. I gave up my desk job and retired
at about age 40, and now spend time hobby farming. Anyone who
works on the land is likely to have fairly good grip strength.


You don't consider hydraulics which are used on every single auto in
the world as simplistic and reliable? Just making you think about
what you said.


Simplistic and reliable compared with cable operated bicycle brakes?

No.

Why don't they rely on hydraulics for the handbrake?

--
JS


Hmm, I don't know if a cable operated handbrake is a good example. You never had a frozen cable? I had and that was really a PIA. In all manuals of the cars I had with a cable operated handbrakes it was advised not to use it in wet freezing weather, just put the car in second gear. After my incident I just did that.


Cable-operated parking brakes vs. hydraulic brakes? For reliability?

I've owned over a dozen cars over the decades. Every one had a cable
operated parking brake and hydraulic brakes. Of those, precisely one had
a parking brake problem - yes, a frozen cable. It's never happened
again, and I do set my parking brake, no matter the temperature.

The hydraulic brakes? I've had far more trouble, everything from sinking
brake pedal (bad master cylinder) to stuck calipers. Not surprisingly,
the simpler system is more reliable.

But with four wheel brakes, the complications and lesser reliability are
worth it, because hydraulics naturally balance braking forces to all
four wheels. That's not necessary or even desirable with a bicycle.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #193  
Old December 15th 19, 07:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Bike adjustments

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 10:19:58 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Bicycle hydraulic brakes are not nearly as reliable or durable as any such brakes used on a motor vehicle (even a cheap motorcycle or scooter).

Also, bicycles don't have the sort of long, tortuous brake line routing that makes cable brakes a bad choice for many motor vehicles. Hydraulic bicycle brakes are just a vanity feature that introduces new modes of failure and service requirements, without bringing any measurable benefits to offset the drawbacks.


While I don't particularly like hydraulic disks I have to disagree with you.. The runs are no more "tortuous" than normal wired brakes. I don't have sufficient experience with them to know about lifespan of the brake pads but the one's on my Avid brakes look brand new after 350 or so very hard descending miles.

While the new carbon fiber frames often route all of the hoses internally for aero reasons this also offers almost perfect protection for the hoses. The hose ends are really simple and extremely reliable and the only point of failure would be if you don't properly tighten the bleeding port.

I would be willing to find something wrong with them but aside from them putting the forces in the incorrect places on the frames and being less aero I can't find any.

But since I'm putting an actual road setup on the one bike I would be happy to report to you anything I can find wrong with them and I will be looking quite closely.
  #194  
Old December 15th 19, 07:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Bike adjustments

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 10:20:01 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
On 15/12/19 2:06 pm, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 6:46:36 PM UTC-8, James wrote:



A phobia of hydraulics? No, I don't have one of those, but I
appreciate the simplicity and reliability of cables. I don't need
self adjustment or extra light feel.

My grip strength is pretty good. I gave up my desk job and retired
at about age 40, and now spend time hobby farming. Anyone who
works on the land is likely to have fairly good grip strength.


You don't consider hydraulics which are used on every single auto in
the world as simplistic and reliable? Just making you think about
what you said.


Simplistic and reliable compared with cable operated bicycle brakes?

No.

Why don't they rely on hydraulics for the handbrake?

--
JS


1. A handbrake is a backup for the Park setting on the transmission or the low gear or reverse you leave it in when parked. It HAS no force nor can it stop the car if it is rolling at anything over 5 mph.
2. The REAL braking on an auto is with hydraulics. Why add an entirely additional hydraulic system when a cable cost 1/4th. The trade-off is cheap vs effective.
  #195  
Old December 15th 19, 07:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Bike adjustments

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 6:44:12 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 12/14/2019 10:19 PM, Chalo wrote:
Bicycle hydraulic brakes are not nearly as reliable or durable as any such brakes used on a motor vehicle (even a cheap motorcycle or scooter).

Also, bicycles don't have the sort of long, tortuous brake line routing that makes cable brakes a bad choice for many motor vehicles. Hydraulic bicycle brakes are just a vanity feature that introduces new modes of failure and service requirements, without bringing any measurable benefits to offset the drawbacks.


Correct.

There's also the longevity issue. Look at older hydraulic brake bicycles
for sale. Inevitably they come with disclaimers like:

"This bike features hydraulic brakes operated by one brake lever. They
do not work, as they probably need to be bled."

and

"Known flaws: -brakes do not work"

If you go online to the manufacturer's web site to try to buy parts to
fix the hydraulic brakes, there's a beautifully detailed diagram of the
system but every part you click on says "At this time, we are unable to
obtain this part. We are sorry for any inconvenience. This part is no
longer available. No alternate or substitute part has been recommended
by the manufacturer."

But there is a good article that details some advantages of hydraulic
disc brakes:
https://support.juicedbikes.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010950991-What-is-the-advantage-of-hydraulic-disc-brakes-


I was curious about your claim of disclaimers on disk brake bikes for sale. So I went out onto Craigslist and looked over 20 ads for older disk brake bikes and couldn't find anything of the like.

I imagine that people might believe warn pads to be them needing to be bled but the latest pads wear out the disks faster than the pads as far as I can see.
  #196  
Old December 15th 19, 07:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Bike adjustments

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 4:57:41 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/15/2019 7:33 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 7:20:01 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 15/12/19 2:06 pm, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 6:46:36 PM UTC-8, James wrote:


A phobia of hydraulics? No, I don't have one of those, but I
appreciate the simplicity and reliability of cables. I don't need
self adjustment or extra light feel.

My grip strength is pretty good. I gave up my desk job and retired
at about age 40, and now spend time hobby farming. Anyone who
works on the land is likely to have fairly good grip strength.


You don't consider hydraulics which are used on every single auto in
the world as simplistic and reliable? Just making you think about
what you said.


Simplistic and reliable compared with cable operated bicycle brakes?

No.

Why don't they rely on hydraulics for the handbrake?

--
JS


Hmm, I don't know if a cable operated handbrake is a good example. You never had a frozen cable? I had and that was really a PIA. In all manuals of the cars I had with a cable operated handbrakes it was advised not to use it in wet freezing weather, just put the car in second gear. After my incident I just did that.


Cable-operated parking brakes vs. hydraulic brakes? For reliability?

I've owned over a dozen cars over the decades. Every one had a cable
operated parking brake and hydraulic brakes. Of those, precisely one had
a parking brake problem - yes, a frozen cable. It's never happened
again, and I do set my parking brake, no matter the temperature.

The hydraulic brakes? I've had far more trouble, everything from sinking
brake pedal (bad master cylinder) to stuck calipers. Not surprisingly,
the simpler system is more reliable.

But with four wheel brakes, the complications and lesser reliability are
worth it, because hydraulics naturally balance braking forces to all
four wheels. That's not necessary or even desirable with a bicycle.

--
- Frank Krygowski


As always YMV.

Lou
  #198  
Old December 15th 19, 07:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Bike adjustments

On 12/15/2019 12:05 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 10:19:58 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Bicycle hydraulic brakes are not nearly as reliable or durable as any such brakes used on a motor vehicle (even a cheap motorcycle or scooter).

Also, bicycles don't have the sort of long, tortuous brake line routing that makes cable brakes a bad choice for many motor vehicles. Hydraulic bicycle brakes are just a vanity feature that introduces new modes of failure and service requirements, without bringing any measurable benefits to offset the drawbacks.


While I don't particularly like hydraulic disks I have to disagree with you. The runs are no more "tortuous" than normal wired brakes. I don't have sufficient experience with them to know about lifespan of the brake pads but the one's on my Avid brakes look brand new after 350 or so very hard descending miles.

While the new carbon fiber frames often route all of the hoses internally for aero reasons this also offers almost perfect protection for the hoses. The hose ends are really simple and extremely reliable and the only point of failure would be if you don't properly tighten the bleeding port.

I would be willing to find something wrong with them but aside from them putting the forces in the incorrect places on the frames and being less aero I can't find any.

But since I'm putting an actual road setup on the one bike I would be happy to report to you anything I can find wrong with them and I will be looking quite closely.


I have no dog in this fight but Chalo's comment on 'tortuous
routing' compared bicycle hydraulic runs to automobile
hydraulic runs, not fluid vs wire for bicycles.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #199  
Old December 15th 19, 11:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Bike adjustments

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 10:19:58 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote:
Bicycle hydraulic brakes are not nearly as reliable or durable as any such brakes used on a motor vehicle (even a cheap motorcycle or scooter).

Also, bicycles don't have the sort of long, tortuous brake line routing that makes cable brakes a bad choice for many motor vehicles. Hydraulic bicycle brakes are just a vanity feature that introduces new modes of failure and service requirements, without bringing any measurable benefits to offset the drawbacks.


Hydraulics are measurably better on my commuter with its tortured cable runs and long housing. The housing/cable drag and weak return spring on BB7s produced a draggy cable disc. The hydraulics are exceptionally positive, great stopping in wet weather -- which is most of my riding this time of year -- and they have been problem free. YMMV. And since when is a hydro disc a vanity feature? It's not like a status symbol of some kind. It has an essential purpose -- braking. I could always jam a stick between my front tire and fork crown or ride a fixie, but instead I ride a bike with a hydro disc brake. At what point is something not a vanity item? 5 speed balloon tires -- or three -- or one. What is the absolutely ethical bike? I'll get one of those and drag it up and down the hills in the rain so I can be authentic.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #200  
Old December 15th 19, 11:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Bike adjustments

On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 06:43:54 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 12/14/2019 10:19 PM, Chalo wrote:
Bicycle hydraulic brakes are not nearly as reliable or durable as any such brakes used on a motor vehicle (even a cheap motorcycle or scooter).

Also, bicycles don't have the sort of long, tortuous brake line routing that makes cable brakes a bad choice for many motor vehicles. Hydraulic bicycle brakes are just a vanity feature that introduces new modes of failure and service requirements, without bringing any measurable benefits to offset the drawbacks.


Correct.

There's also the longevity issue. Look at older hydraulic brake bicycles
for sale. Inevitably they come with disclaimers like:

"This bike features hydraulic brakes operated by one brake lever. They
do not work, as they probably need to be bled."

and

"Known flaws: -brakes do not work"

If you go online to the manufacturer's web site to try to buy parts to
fix the hydraulic brakes, there's a beautifully detailed diagram of the
system but every part you click on says "At this time, we are unable to
obtain this part. We are sorry for any inconvenience. This part is no
longer available. No alternate or substitute part has been recommended
by the manufacturer."

But there is a good article that details some advantages of hydraulic
disc brakes:
https://support.juicedbikes.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010950991-What-is-the-advantage-of-hydraulic-disc-brakes-


I liked your referenced article. Particularly the part that said
"since the fluid is not compressible like cable wire" :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

 




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