Please don't help so much

Studies consistently show that half of car-bike crashes are
the fault of cyclists.

=v= Studies based on police reports do, but these are subject
to the known and documented effects of observer bias and, in
the case of fatalities, survivor bias.

=v= Under our system of justice, the at-fault "determination"
in police reports, based on cursory investigation, are not
the final word. There is a justice system for that, but the
stats from that are hard to come by since they are deferred
to settlements whose terms are usually not public knowledge.
_Jym_

On 7/1/2012 10:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jul 1, 10:45 pm, "Tom $herman (-_-)" ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 7/1/2012 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]
Now, Dan, let me tell you how I spent the last couple days. I attended
a Cycling Savvy class in a distant city,[...]

Out of curiosity, which city?

Columbus, Ohio, just after that massive storm system moved through.

By distant, I was thinking Orlando or St. Louis.

Early Saturday morning I rode to breakfast at a friend's house, past
cars smashed by huge fallen trees, through major intersections with no
traffic lights and motorists negotiating their way, avoiding the
remains of one building's tile roof all in shards on the road...
Mother Nature was being really nasty. But impressive.

Use a decent lock to keep your bicycle from blowing away.

CS classes are pretty rare on the ground - hopefully that will not be
the case in a couple of years. http://cyclingsavvy.org/course-calendar/

It's a good program. The computer animations and videos are
absolutely top quality, and most used in class are available online.
The on-road experiences really help people who aren't yet comfortable
in traffic. And the folks attending were a lot of fun, very
pleasant.

I think if you compare a good bicycling class against any other thing
a cyclist might spend money on, you'll get more long-term pleasure and
satisfaction out of taking the class.

Sorry, but I prefer two-wheel classes where one can exceed the "ton" by
a decent bit. And scare oneself silly at least a couple of times.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!

On Jul 1, 8:41 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

snip


I think if you compare a good bicycling class against any other thing
a cyclist might spend money on, you'll get more long-term pleasure and
satisfaction out of taking the class.


"I know you are but what am I?"

Opinion is one thing (and everybody's entitled to theirs); but you
extend your opinion and values to presume what *other* people will
find most pleasurable and satisfying of *all* the things in the whole
world that they might spend money on. Incredible.

If the class was ten bucks (lunch included), I'm sure I'd get far more
long-term pleasure and satisfaction out of - just an example OTTOMH -
an LP from the used record store.

How much is that class anyway? How much did it cost to "transport"
you and your bike to the class? How much was your latest copy of that
book? Holy crap! The things I could buy...

That said, I consistently say that's great for those whom it suits.
My opinion and values are mine alone and nothing more significant.

On 7/2/2012 12:27 AM, Dan O wrote:
How much is that class anyway?

$60 for 9½ hours.

http://cyclingsavvy.org/2012/06/spots-still-available-for-columbus-oh-class/

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!

On Jul 1, 6:02*pm, "Tom $herman (-_-)" ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:


Where is here (no need to be more specific than province/state)?


gta ontario

And why would the developers care if the truckers are ticketed? *The
driver generally pays the fine(s), including those for being overweight,
and the developer, general contractor, etc do not have to pay the
trucking companies any more (since they are paid by mileage and weight
hauled).

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

there is a fair bit of collusion between developers and local politics
here- pretty disgustingly blantant sometimes. the drivers have managed
to shut down inspection stations by themselves on more than one
occaision- they just swarmed and parked to make a point. from what I
understand the gravel yards are responsible for ensuring loads leaving
are properly scaled. regardless, the dump trucks tend to be pretty
reckless. I regularily see them blowing though red lights at
intersections, sometimes with horns blaring. I have no other
explanation why cops arent doing any proper enforcement to prevent
such. last thurs or friday I saw one had plowed into the back of a bob
tail tractor on the highway it hit the wall and burst into flames. don
t know what exactly happened but one thing seemed pretty clear the
dump truck was following way too close at speed.

my overall point is though truck drivers might be seen as better than
your average bear in terms of safety, that is not absolute due to
other factors

Dan O wrote:
On Jul 1, 8:41 pm, Frank wrote:

snip


I think if you compare a good bicycling class against any other thing
a cyclist might spend money on, you'll get more long-term pleasure and
satisfaction out of taking the class.


"I know you are but what am I?"

Sheesh. This marks the first time I've gotten that remark from anybody
over age 12.

--
- Frank Krygowski

raamman wrote:
On Jul 1, 6:02 pm, "Tom $herman (-_-)"""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:


Where is here (no need to be more specific than province/state)?


gta ontario

And why would the developers care if the truckers are ticketed? The
driver generally pays the fine(s), including those for being overweight,
and the developer, general contractor, etc do not have to pay the
trucking companies any more (since they are paid by mileage and weight
hauled).

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

there is a fair bit of collusion between developers and local politics
here- pretty disgustingly blantant sometimes. the drivers have managed
to shut down inspection stations by themselves on more than one
occaision- they just swarmed and parked to make a point. from what I
understand the gravel yards are responsible for ensuring loads leaving
are properly scaled. regardless, the dump trucks tend to be pretty
reckless. I regularily see them blowing though red lights at
intersections, sometimes with horns blaring. I have no other
explanation why cops arent doing any proper enforcement to prevent
such. last thurs or friday I saw one had plowed into the back of a bob
tail tractor on the highway it hit the wall and burst into flames. don
t know what exactly happened but one thing seemed pretty clear the
dump truck was following way too close at speed.

Seems like a letter to the editor might be in order, at least! If you
can get friends to write as well, you may be able to affect a change.

my overall point is though truck drivers might be seen as better than
your average bear in terms of safety, that is not absolute due to
other factors

I've heard people say that local truckers and long haul truckers are
very different in their behavior. I think that may be true. I've never
ever been hassled by anyone driving a semi-trailer rig, but I have
occasionally gotten grief from large dump trucks.

The most memorable case was when I was riding on a narrow (probably 9'
lanes) two lane frequently used as a cut-through by truckers wanting to
avoid main roads. Despite keeping up with other traffic in front of me
due to traffic lights, the dump truck driver behind me blared his horn
several times.

So I shrugged my shoulders and shook my head, and kept my lane position.
Eventually he passed and went on his miserable way.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Jul 2, 11:43*am, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
raamman wrote:
On Jul 1, 6:02 pm, "Tom $herman (-_-)"""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" *wrote:

Where is here (no need to be more specific than province/state)?

gta ontario

And why would the developers care if the truckers are ticketed? *The
driver generally pays the fine(s), including those for being overweight,
and the developer, general contractor, etc do not have to pay the
trucking companies any more (since they are paid by mileage and weight
hauled).

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

there is a fair bit of collusion between developers and local politics
here- pretty disgustingly blantant sometimes. the drivers have managed
to shut down inspection stations by themselves on more than one
occaision- they just swarmed and parked to make a point. from what I
understand the gravel yards are responsible for ensuring loads leaving
are properly scaled. regardless, the dump trucks tend to be pretty
reckless. I regularily see them blowing though red lights at
intersections, sometimes with horns blaring. I have no other
explanation why cops arent doing any proper enforcement to prevent
such. last thurs or friday I saw one had plowed into the back of a bob
tail tractor on the highway it hit the wall and burst into flames. don
t know what exactly happened but one thing seemed pretty clear the
dump truck was following way too close at speed.

Seems like a letter to the editor might be in order, at least! *If you
can get friends to write as well, you may be able to affect a change.


the local paper is very much front and center with the developers and
local mayor here. my critical online letters to were quickly removed
or edited out, so I leave them to their own devices. besides the cops
here are pretty freaking useless

(we had neightbours who were very loud regularily and smoking dope; it
was too much and filtering into our apartment with little kids so I
called the cops, they did nothing, a sgt even showed up agreed that
the hallway stank of dope but took MY name and info down in his little
book before leaving, didn t even knock on the neighbours door

I am not going to say what I did as a result)


my overall point is though truck drivers might be seen as better than
your average bear in terms of safety, that is not absolute due to
other factors

I've heard people say that local truckers and long haul truckers are
very different in their behavior. *I think that may be true. *I've never
ever been hassled by anyone driving a semi-trailer rig, but I have
occasionally gotten grief from large dump trucks.


Im actually working as a local driver now, picking up and delivering
loads the long haulers run to the terminal. The bulk/tankers I would
say are probabally the best; a look at the rig being driven is a good
indication of the drivers ability.

The most memorable case was when I was riding on a narrow (probably 9'
lanes) two lane frequently used as a cut-through by truckers wanting to
avoid main roads. *Despite keeping up with other traffic in front of me
due to traffic lights, the dump truck driver behind me blared his horn
several times.

So I shrugged my shoulders and shook my head, and kept my lane position.
* Eventually he passed and went on his miserable way.

--
- Frank Krygowski-

blaring of the horn is a measure of comfort, it tells you you are
seen, it attracts attention to you so there are witnesses if anyone
else is present.

Of course the smartest thing to do is to avoid confrontation; shiot
happens just forget about it, do something and it might go the wrong
way then a forgettable incident becomes a lifelong regret. I try to
avoid confrontation as much as possible, it's like russian roulette,
keep taking chances and one day you'll win/lose. Of couse you were
absolutely right in your actions above and I do the same things too-
but before that try to avoid getting into such situations, eg altering
a known dangerous route, or timing the travel on the narrow section so
as to interfere with the least amount of traffic etc.

On 7/2/2012 7:29 AM, davethedave wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 00:11:06 -0500, Tom $herman (-_-) wrote:

I think if you compare a good bicycling class against any other thing a
cyclist might spend money on, you'll get more long-term pleasure and
satisfaction out of taking the class.

Sorry, but I prefer two-wheel classes where one can exceed the "ton" by
a decent bit. And scare oneself silly at least a couple of times.

It's only a CBR 600. It's slow! Get over yourself.

You would think a liter bike would be 40% faster than a 600, but really
on most courses it is only 5% or so. And on the tight courses, the
super-sports can actually be faster than the the super-bikes.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!

On 7/2/2012 12:44 PM, raamman wrote:
Im actually working as a local driver now, picking up and delivering
loads the long haulers run to the terminal. The bulk/tankers I would
say are probabally the best; a look at the rig being driven is a good
indication of the drivers ability.

Here in the US, you need a special endorsement in addition to a Class A
CDL to drive a tanker truck (or even a flat-bed with a 1,000 gallon or
more water tank strapped on). Have only seen one bad tanker-truck
driver - "Motor Propane" truck on the North-South Freeway in Milwaukee
whose driver was acting like he was in "Duel".

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!