#21
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An Incident
On Jun 9, 12:01 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
From what I've read, I don't think bike lanes generate any more "elbow room." ISTR at least one study that showed that motorists actually pass closer when there is a bike lane. I'll dig for that study, if anyone's interested. Yeah dig for it. This should be good. |
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#22
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An Incident
On Jun 9, 12:01 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
I agree that bike lanes encourage prospective cyclists. ... I am not a fan of bike lanes but they do encourage beginning riders. To be more precise, they encourage prospective cyclists to ride *in the street and with traffic.* But creating psychological comfort for beginners is certainly not the answer to the problems of street cycling. |
#23
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An Incident
On Jun 9, 2:52 pm, wrote:
On Jun 9, 12:01 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote: From what I've read, I don't think bike lanes generate any more "elbow room." ISTR at least one study that showed that motorists actually pass closer when there is a bike lane. I'll dig for that study, if anyone's interested. Yeah dig for it. This should be good. OK, I found one I have on disk, and references to others. "Evaluation of Shared-Use Facilities for Bicycles and Motor Vehicles," Floride Dept. of Transportation Ped/Bike Safety Office, found (on p. 14) that mean separation distance between cyclists and passing cars was 6.44 ft for wide curb lanes, vs. 5.93 ft for bike lanes. The other reference was to “An Evaluation of Red Shoulder as a Bicycle and Pedestrian Facility,” by The University of North Carolina Highway Safety Research Center. I read this one long ago and I think I have a hardcopy of it, but haven't looked for it yet. In any case, some filed discussion of that paper says (I quote): "Eighty six percent of bicyclists perceived that there was more space between themselves and passing motorists with the added shoulder, and 14 percent felt there was no change. In fact, the actual spacing between bicycles and motor vehicles was 0.62 feet less with the red shoulders than before their placement. "Nearly eighty six percent of bicyclists’ perceptions were not only wrong, they were completely opposite of reality." BTW, the "red shoulder" in the title is obviously a bike lane. It's not difficult to see why motorists would pass closer to cyclists in a bike lane. First, the motorists feel more confident that the cyclist is not going to move left in front of them - that is, they feel the cyclist is trapped by the line. Likewise, the cyclist feels more confident riding closer to passing traffic. It's a false sense of security, because the line doesn't keep the car from hitting him from behind; but hits-from-behind are very rare anyway. But most important, the cyclist probably _needs_ to ride further left when there's a bike lane, simply because bike lanes tend to accumulate debris, and the density of debris is least where cars come closest to blowing it off - that is, the lanes are cleanest right next to the stripe. There are some nice debris shots at http://www.humantransport.org/bicycl...rystripes..htm - Frank Krygowski |
#24
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An Incident
In article
, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Jun 9, 2:52 pm, wrote: On Jun 9, 12:01 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote: From what I've read, I don't think bike lanes generate any more "elbow room." ISTR at least one study that showed that motorists actually pass closer when there is a bike lane. I'll dig for that study, if anyone's interested. Yeah dig for it. This should be good. OK, I found one I have on disk, and references to others. "Evaluation of Shared-Use Facilities for Bicycles and Motor Vehicles," Floride Dept. of Transportation Ped/Bike Safety Office, found (on p. 14) that mean separation distance between cyclists and passing cars was 6.44 ft for wide curb lanes, vs. 5.93 ft for bike lanes. Was any mention made of the distance the cyclist was riding from the curb in either case? snip It's not difficult to see why motorists would pass closer to cyclists in a bike lane. First, the motorists feel more confident that the cyclist is not going to move left in front of them - that is, they feel the cyclist is trapped by the line. Likewise, the cyclist feels more confident riding closer to passing traffic. It's a false sense of security, because the line doesn't keep the car from hitting him from behind; but hits-from-behind are very rare anyway. But most important, the cyclist probably _needs_ to ride further left when there's a bike lane, simply because bike lanes tend to accumulate debris, and the density of debris is least where cars come closest to blowing it off - that is, the lanes are cleanest right next to the stripe. There are some nice debris shots at http://www.humantransport.org/bicycl...arystripes.htm - Frank Krygowski There is another point that bears on the discussion. It's my impression -- subjective it is, but it's been corroborated by residents living on the streets concerned -- that, contingent upon the design, bike lanes can reduce the speed of motorized traffic. This is so when a lane or two, previously devoted to autos is eliminated to make room for bike ways and/or medians. (Frank do you have a study in your collection attesting to this?) In encouraging slower traffic which, in turn, correlates to greater safety for everyone, bikeways obliquely minimize danger. |
#25
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An Incident
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:44:22 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote, in part: But most important, the cyclist probably _needs_ to ride further left when there's a bike lane, simply because bike lanes tend to accumulate debris, and the density of debris is least where cars come closest to blowing it off - that is, the lanes are cleanest right next to the stripe. It also places the cyclist closer to where opposing traffic is looking for a vehicle. When a driver is focused on getting an opening for their left turn they're looking for traffic in the travel lane. They're less likely to be looking bikes somewhere near the shoulder. They still might misjudge your speed but at least they've a better chance of seeing you. I like to stand up if I see that situation taking shape. Bike lanes aren't much different than paved shoulders in many places where they exist. Just different signs. Drivers will use bike lanes or shoulders to get around a left turning vehicle in front of them. -- zk |
#26
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An Incident
On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 21:30:02 -0400, Luke
wrote: There is another point that bears on the discussion. It's my impression -- subjective it is, but it's been corroborated by residents living on the streets concerned -- that, contingent upon the design, bike lanes can reduce the speed of motorized traffic. This is so when a lane or two, previously devoted to autos is eliminated to make room for bike ways and/or medians. (Frank do you have a study in your collection attesting to this?) This too is my impression from having two new stripes painted in the door zone along my regular route. There was also a yellow median divider painted that's almost the width or a standard lane. Two traffic lanes and a parking lane have been reduced to one lane, bike lane and parking lane. It's all within a school and playground speed-zone everybody had previously ignored. At least now they slow down somewhat. They're still not doing 30KmH during daylight or school hours but more like 50 instead of seventy. The bike lane is longer and fits into our "bike route" system but I use only a half or whole block of it*. The painted median has been handier for me than the bike lane. Previous to the paint, I had to enter into traffic, which wasn't hard because of the wide curb lane, and then I had to cross four lanes on the fly within a half-block, for the back lane, or else go to the intersection and push the pedestrian button to make the left turn. Other cyclists frequently use the sidewalk for that block. Riding the street, it's all a matter of timing. Overly polite drivers and cell phone zombies can spoil the flow. Some drivers freak when they see you standing in the middle of the road, Others know they too can safely use the painted median for a left turn at this intersection. *W. 49th Ave eastbound from Heather to Tisdall northbound for Vancouver locals. -- zk |
#27
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An Incident
On Jun 9, 9:30 pm, Luke wrote:
In article , Frank Krygowski wrote: On Jun 9, 2:52 pm, wrote: On Jun 9, 12:01 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote: From what I've read, I don't think bike lanes generate any more "elbow room." ISTR at least one study that showed that motorists actually pass closer when there is a bike lane. I'll dig for that study, if anyone's interested. Yeah dig for it. This should be good. OK, I found one I have on disk, and references to others. "Evaluation of Shared-Use Facilities for Bicycles and Motor Vehicles," Floride Dept. of Transportation Ped/Bike Safety Office, found (on p. 14) that mean separation distance between cyclists and passing cars was 6.44 ft for wide curb lanes, vs. 5.93 ft for bike lanes. Was any mention made of the distance the cyclist was riding from the curb in either case? In the Florida study, cyclists definitely rode further from the curb when a bike lane was present. Looking at those debris photos again, it's easy to see why they would. http://www.humantransport.org/bicycl...arystripes.htm Riding further from the curb is fine with me. The cyclist is more visible to all motorists. But I like the fact that when I ride there with no bike lane stripe, cars are more likely to move further left to give me more room. And I like the fact that I can completely control my road position when there is no stripe. I don't have problems like Oregon cyclists do, where they could get ticketed if they leave the bike lane. There is another point that bears on the discussion. It's my impression -- subjective it is, but it's been corroborated by residents living on the streets concerned -- that, contingent upon the design, bike lanes can reduce the speed of motorized traffic. This is so when a lane or two, previously devoted to autos is eliminated to make room for bike ways and/or medians. (Frank do you have a study in your collection attesting to this?) Not that I'm aware of. I've heard people say they felt the same thing. But I think one needs to be very careful about such judgments. The fact is, there is a huge deceptive effect associated with bike facilities. As I stated in my other post, riders were overwhelmingly convinced cars gave more distance with bike lanes, but riders were flat wrong. They actually gave less room. In encouraging slower traffic which, in turn, correlates to greater safety for everyone, bikeways obliquely minimize danger. In the bike lane studies I've read, none have demonstrated any actual increase in safety. People more knowledgeable than I have claimed that it's not only what I've read - that there simply are no studies with data that proves safety advantages (or disadvantages) for bike lanes. Any changes are down in the statistical noise. But most cyclists are overwhelmingly convinced they're much safer. Again, flat wrong. I think the lack of data is partly because cycling is so blasted safe, it's hard to do a small-area study that "catches" enough data to give statistically robust answers. ISTM that in such a situation, one needs to analyze the mechanics of crashes to see what the effects of such a design change would be. IOW, what sorts of crash mechanisms would bike lanes help? What crash mechanisms would they hurt? Which are more common? Which are more serious? Bike lanes try to protect against a tiny percentage of crashes, the "hit from behind" crashes. To do so, they make more likely the much more common right hook, left cross, and driver pullout crashes. They also tempt novice cyclists to turn left from the curb. We have very few bike lanes around here. But in the past year, one of our club members almost got hit because of one. He was in a bike lane that veered right, which is the direction that most bikes and most cars go at that intersection. Trouble was, he was going straight. He barely missed a right hook. And he's no novice. He's ridden for probably 25 years. He was a well- known racer years ago, noted for his 200 mile training rides and other adventures. But even he got sucked in by that bike lane. - Frank Krygowski |
#28
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An Incident
On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 05:27:56 -0500 in rec.bicycles.misc, catzz66
wrote: I wonder what experience shows in towns that have extensive bike lanes. Cagers yell at you when you take the lane to avoid hazards and they pass on blind corners with double yellow lines, even if you are riding at the speed limit. When you catch up with them at a stoplight and ask them if they know that a double yellow line means no passing, *they* yell that cyclists "blocking traffic" will cause accidents! Since "bike lanes" are rarely swept or maintained, unlike the main roadway, they are often useless, and only create the impression that cagers don't have to share the road. |
#29
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An Incident
For such purposes, I greatly prefer "Share the Road" signs.
=v= "Share the Road" is completely useless. It is synonymous with "stop taking the lane and get out of my way" with a certain population of motorists, and that's the very population that needs to be reached with a different message. =v= "Bicycles Allowed Use of Full Lane" (BAUFL) is a much less ambiguous message: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jym/355367806/ If you must have something on the road surface as well, perhaps "Sharrows." See http://home.swbell.net/mpion/sharesigns.html =v= I like sharrows, though I don't know how effective they are (they're still considered experimental). I like to point at them when motorists tell me to go ride on the sidewalk or in a bike lane. _Jym_ |
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