Where the cyclists in America belong: back alleys, gutters andsidewalks

On Apr 21, 11:29*am, wrote:
On Apr 21, 6:48 am, Steve Ball wrote:



I guess the harm is that's what good for the goose has to be good for the
gander. If cyclists can decide which traffic signs to obey and when, why not
motorists? I mean, if I car goes through a red light when there's no traffic
on then intersecting road, where's the harm? Do you want to apply this to
speed limits too? (Cyclists - even me - regularly exceed the posted 30 kph
in Sydney's Centennial park; motorists get booked.)

From what I see here in America, what's good for the goose is indeed
good for the gander. *That is, everyone violates traffic laws.

I have a stop sign less than 100 yards from where I'm typing this.
Only about half the motorists come to a complete stop. *I regularly
see motorists going through red lights. *That's most often by
squeezing through a fresh red before cross traffic starts up, but I
regularly see deliberate disobedience of a light that was long red
(including one memorable one by a cop - no siren or emergency lights;
he just didn't want to wait). *I see a majority of motorists exceeding
speed limits, and neglecting turn signals before turning or changing
lanes. *I regularly see motorists violating the laws in other ways as
well - the list could go on and on.

Bicyclists and pedestrians do the same, of course. *I believe the
major difference is not in frequency of disobedience, but in
consequences of disobedience. *Bicyclists and pedestrians almost never
injure anyone but themselves by their mistakes. *Motorists in America
routinely kill tens of thousands per year.

(However, that's does NOT give credence to the "bicycling is
dangerous!!!" nonsense. *Most of those killed by motorists are
motorists. *Only a very few are cyclists.)

In summary: *People will not be perfect in their obedience to laws,
whether they are on foot, on two wheels or on four (or more). *Yes,
the legal system does generally concentrate on motorist violations,
but that's only logical, since motorist offenses are the ones that do
almost all the harm.

- Frank Krygowski

I've thought we'd never agree on something.

What is it we disagree on? Oh, that riding a bike in traffic is safe.
But how can it be if drivers routinely ignore the laws, or simply
there are no good laws?

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:14:34 -0700 (PDT), ComandanteBanana
wrote:


The big question is now..since you are much lower than before..how is
your visibility to other vehicles? Id hope you have a flag on a stick
of some sort to attempt to catch the attention of other vehicle
operators.

A friend of mine builds recombent bikes, and has had some really close
calls because of the lower profile and lower visiblity. He now puts a
flag on a bit of graphite tent pole when interacting with motor
vehicles. *The is the reason many of the electric powered chair riders
do this as well. If you blend in...you wont be seen.

Gunner


No, this is not a recumbent, just semi-recumbent. High enough to see
and be seen.

Perhaps you might wish to have somone ride your trike, while you
follow in a high profile vehicle such as an SUV, to determine just how
visible your ride really is? Try not to run over him/her.

It's nicer than I was lead to believe by articles about uprights.
Maybe the small difference in the pedals makes the difference.

Shrug

Gunner


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
[...]
Shrug...which is why I dont live in a major urban area, but simply
work there.
And legally carry a concealed firearm on my person, daily.

I think it is against the law for criminals like yourself who have spent
time in prison learning all about cocksucking to carry firearms on their
person. I am alerting the California authorities to look into the matter.

****ing Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

On Apr 21, 4:41 pm, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
On Apr 21, 11:29 am, wrote:


From what I see here in America, what's good for the goose is indeed
good for the gander. That is, everyone violates traffic laws.

I have a stop sign less than 100 yards from where I'm typing this.
Only about half the motorists come to a complete stop. I regularly
see motorists going through red lights. That's most often by
squeezing through a fresh red before cross traffic starts up, but I
regularly see deliberate disobedience of a light that was long red
(including one memorable one by a cop - no siren or emergency lights;
he just didn't want to wait). I see a majority of motorists exceeding
speed limits, and neglecting turn signals before turning or changing
lanes. I regularly see motorists violating the laws in other ways as
well - the list could go on and on.

Bicyclists and pedestrians do the same, of course. I believe the
major difference is not in frequency of disobedience, but in
consequences of disobedience. Bicyclists and pedestrians almost never
injure anyone but themselves by their mistakes. Motorists in America
routinely kill tens of thousands per year.

(However, that's does NOT give credence to the "bicycling is
dangerous!!!" nonsense. Most of those killed by motorists are
motorists. Only a very few are cyclists.)

In summary: People will not be perfect in their obedience to laws,
whether they are on foot, on two wheels or on four (or more). Yes,
the legal system does generally concentrate on motorist violations,
but that's only logical, since motorist offenses are the ones that do
almost all the harm.

- Frank Krygowski

I've thought we'd never agree on something.

What is it we disagree on? Oh, that riding a bike in traffic is safe.
But how can it be if drivers routinely ignore the laws, or simply
there are no good laws?

You confuse disobedience with danger.

To evaluate disobedience of laws related to a given activity, you
observe people and see how often they disobey the laws applying to
that activity.

To evaluate the danger of an activity, you observe how much time
people spend in the activity, and you count how often they are killed
or seriously injured per unit time.

Bicyclists are very, very rarely killed or seriously injured. Again:
roughly fifteen MILLION miles of cycling per fatality. Alternately,
dedicated riders that do over 2500 miles per year, including commuting
in traffic, average 11 years between accidents that cost a mere $50.

Most people are pretty inept at cycling. But still, they don't get
seriously injured or killed. The most typical bike injury is a
skinned knee.

Even someone as fearful as you should be able to deal with the
occasional skinned knee. So again: quit whining.

- Frank Krygowski

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:55:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Apr 14, 6:12 pm, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
Just Saturday morning I was almost attacked for doing the right thing
on the Causeway to Hell (the name is due to the many incidents I had
there, this being the third one that day). The guy blew the horn as I
was riding the bike nicely, and I gave him the finger. I shouldn't
have, but he didn't have to harass me with the horn. He stopped,
insulted me, wanted to fight me, and spit at me before taking off. It
just happens that I'm supposed to walk the bike on the sidewalk across
its bridges! No more biking on that road, or any other road shared
with traffic. Predators like this will always be encouraged to
mistreat cyclists due to the lack of respect given to us. No more than
blacks that were forced to ride in the back of buses...

NOTE: For the reasons given above, I do NOT recommend that you give
the finger to anyone. Not because they don't deserve it, but because
the lion is waiting for any excuse to eat the monkey. Instead, I do
recommend you give them the finger in a nice civilized way. Something
like "You can eat my banana" on the back of the T-shirt will still
give them the finger, but with vaseline, so to speak.

That was my best route out... I've found instead an alley that takes me
into town. That's where the cyclists in America belong: back alleys,
gutters and sidewalks.

WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION? http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution

BIKE FOR PEACEhttp://webspawner.com/users/bikeforpeace
An irate driver ran over a bicyclist in southern Illinois in the
mid-90's.


Yes and?

A biker caused a multicar vehicle accident resulting in the death of a
mother and child in the same time period.

What type of motorcycle was the biker riding?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:15:05 -0500, "Edward Dolan"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
[...]
Shrug...which is why I dont live in a major urban area, but simply
work there.
And legally carry a concealed firearm on my person, daily.

I think it is against the law for criminals like yourself who have spent
time in prison learning all about cocksucking to carry firearms on their
person. I am alerting the California authorities to look into the matter.

****ing Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


Edtard...is that the best you can do? Tch tch tch

Son..I have a CCW permit, which in California is tough to get. Ive
had one for 27 yrs so far, renewing it with the State, Local and FBIs
approval each two years.

So if there were any question about a criminal background, history of
mental health, moral terpitude and so forth, that license would be
yanked faster than you yank your life partners dick.

So Id suggest you not continue your vapid and utterly pathetic
buffoonery in such a public forum. It simply shows what an utter
retard you are to all and sundry.
I can use my CCW as a Statement of Good Citizenship and Good Mental
Health, as it were.

Id hazard to guess that you can provide no similar document attesting
to your sanity, or your ability to stay out of jail.

The crux of this matter, and why you got your ****y going on, was
because I and others have suggested that you and the rest of your bike
riders OBEY THE LAW and understand that the laws of physics dont work
in your favor in an encouter between a bicycle and a motor vehicle.

Now I realize that you are suffering from Bike RIders Arrogance, a
common mental health issue, but your continued rabid babbling, like
that of a sun maddened weasel, doesnt prompt the readers to give you
any sympathy

Edtard...if you persist in not obeying the Motor Vehicle codes and
paying attention to the laws of Physics..it will kill you.

At this point, I feel absolutly no compassion for your untimely
upcoming death , nor to I feel compassion for your next of kin, as
they have had plenty of time to either have you committed, or knock
the **** out of you and kick some sense into your head. Bad cess to
both you and them.

Gunner




"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 19:40:55 -0500, Tom Sherman
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:55:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Apr 14, 6:12 pm, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
Just Saturday morning I was almost attacked for doing the right thing
on the Causeway to Hell (the name is due to the many incidents I had
there, this being the third one that day). The guy blew the horn as I
was riding the bike nicely, and I gave him the finger. I shouldn't
have, but he didn't have to harass me with the horn. He stopped,
insulted me, wanted to fight me, and spit at me before taking off. It
just happens that I'm supposed to walk the bike on the sidewalk across
its bridges! No more biking on that road, or any other road shared
with traffic. Predators like this will always be encouraged to
mistreat cyclists due to the lack of respect given to us. No more than
blacks that were forced to ride in the back of buses...

NOTE: For the reasons given above, I do NOT recommend that you give
the finger to anyone. Not because they don't deserve it, but because
the lion is waiting for any excuse to eat the monkey. Instead, I do
recommend you give them the finger in a nice civilized way. Something
like "You can eat my banana" on the back of the T-shirt will still
give them the finger, but with vaseline, so to speak.

That was my best route out... I've found instead an alley that takes me
into town. That's where the cyclists in America belong: back alleys,
gutters and sidewalks.

WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION? http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution

BIKE FOR PEACEhttp://webspawner.com/users/bikeforpeace
An irate driver ran over a bicyclist in southern Illinois in the
mid-90's.


Yes and?

A biker caused a multicar vehicle accident resulting in the death of a
mother and child in the same time period.

What type of motorcycle was the biker riding?

A Schwinn as I recall, when I worked the accident investigation.

Gunner


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 19:40:55 -0500, Tom Sherman
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:55:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Apr 14, 6:12 pm, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
Just Saturday morning I was almost attacked for doing the right thing
on the Causeway to Hell (the name is due to the many incidents I had
there, this being the third one that day). The guy blew the horn as I
was riding the bike nicely, and I gave him the finger. I shouldn't
have, but he didn't have to harass me with the horn. He stopped,
insulted me, wanted to fight me, and spit at me before taking off. It
just happens that I'm supposed to walk the bike on the sidewalk across
its bridges! No more biking on that road, or any other road shared
with traffic. Predators like this will always be encouraged to
mistreat cyclists due to the lack of respect given to us. No more than
blacks that were forced to ride in the back of buses...

NOTE: For the reasons given above, I do NOT recommend that you give
the finger to anyone. Not because they don't deserve it, but because
the lion is waiting for any excuse to eat the monkey. Instead, I do
recommend you give them the finger in a nice civilized way. Something
like "You can eat my banana" on the back of the T-shirt will still
give them the finger, but with vaseline, so to speak.

That was my best route out... I've found instead an alley that takes me
into town. That's where the cyclists in America belong: back alleys,
gutters and sidewalks.

WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION? http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution

BIKE FOR PEACEhttp://webspawner.com/users/bikeforpeace
An irate driver ran over a bicyclist in southern Illinois in the
mid-90's.

Yes and?

A biker caused a multicar vehicle accident resulting in the death of a
mother and child in the same time period.

What type of motorcycle was the biker riding?

A Schwinn as I recall, when I worked the accident investigation.

When did Schwinn make motorcycles?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:35:09 -0500, Tom Sherman
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 19:40:55 -0500, Tom Sherman
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:55:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Apr 14, 6:12 pm, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
Just Saturday morning I was almost attacked for doing the right thing
on the Causeway to Hell (the name is due to the many incidents I had
there, this being the third one that day). The guy blew the horn as I
was riding the bike nicely, and I gave him the finger. I shouldn't
have, but he didn't have to harass me with the horn. He stopped,
insulted me, wanted to fight me, and spit at me before taking off. It
just happens that I'm supposed to walk the bike on the sidewalk across
its bridges! No more biking on that road, or any other road shared
with traffic. Predators like this will always be encouraged to
mistreat cyclists due to the lack of respect given to us. No more than
blacks that were forced to ride in the back of buses...

NOTE: For the reasons given above, I do NOT recommend that you give
the finger to anyone. Not because they don't deserve it, but because
the lion is waiting for any excuse to eat the monkey. Instead, I do
recommend you give them the finger in a nice civilized way. Something
like "You can eat my banana" on the back of the T-shirt will still
give them the finger, but with vaseline, so to speak.

That was my best route out... I've found instead an alley that takes me
into town. That's where the cyclists in America belong: back alleys,
gutters and sidewalks.

WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION? http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution

BIKE FOR PEACEhttp://webspawner.com/users/bikeforpeace
An irate driver ran over a bicyclist in southern Illinois in the
mid-90's.

Yes and?

A biker caused a multicar vehicle accident resulting in the death of a
mother and child in the same time period.

What type of motorcycle was the biker riding?

A Schwinn as I recall, when I worked the accident investigation.

When did Schwinn make motorcycles?

As far as I know, they havent in many many years.

Gunner



"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:35:09 -0500, Tom Sherman
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 19:40:55 -0500, Tom Sherman
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:55:38 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Apr 14, 6:12 pm, ComandanteBanana
wrote:
Just Saturday morning I was almost attacked for doing the right thing
on the Causeway to Hell (the name is due to the many incidents I had
there, this being the third one that day). The guy blew the horn as I
was riding the bike nicely, and I gave him the finger. I shouldn't
have, but he didn't have to harass me with the horn. He stopped,
insulted me, wanted to fight me, and spit at me before taking off. It
just happens that I'm supposed to walk the bike on the sidewalk across
its bridges! No more biking on that road, or any other road shared
with traffic. Predators like this will always be encouraged to
mistreat cyclists due to the lack of respect given to us. No more than
blacks that were forced to ride in the back of buses...

NOTE: For the reasons given above, I do NOT recommend that you give
the finger to anyone. Not because they don't deserve it, but because
the lion is waiting for any excuse to eat the monkey. Instead, I do
recommend you give them the finger in a nice civilized way. Something
like "You can eat my banana" on the back of the T-shirt will still
give them the finger, but with vaseline, so to speak.

That was my best route out... I've found instead an alley that takes me
into town. That's where the cyclists in America belong: back alleys,
gutters and sidewalks.

WHY THE BANANA REVOLUTION? http://webspawner.com/users/bananarevolution

BIKE FOR PEACEhttp://webspawner.com/users/bikeforpeace
An irate driver ran over a bicyclist in southern Illinois in the
mid-90's.
Yes and?

A biker caused a multicar vehicle accident resulting in the death of a
mother and child in the same time period.

What type of motorcycle was the biker riding?
A Schwinn as I recall, when I worked the accident investigation.

When did Schwinn make motorcycles?

As far as I know, they havent in many many years.

So it was actually a cyclist, and not a biker then?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful