London "Danger! Danger!"

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 08:31:26 +1100, James wrote:

On 18/12/13 05:34, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:07:53 PM UTC-5, Dan O wrote:

If the stripe of paint on the road "tells" people anything, they'd
best see someone about those voices in their heads.

Ah. Then people should stop painting them.

Is there any political pressure being applied to repeal "must use bike
lane" laws there? Assuming you have such laws as we do.

As far as I'm aware there are no such laws in the UK. The cyclist is
entitled to use the road whether there is a bike lane or not.

I could of course be wrong. I've been wrong before and I'm sure I will be
wrong again. It's becoming a bit of a habit really.

Plod has ever stopped me in London for not using a cycle path though.
Then again no one stopped me for going through the Euston underpass at
150 on a motorbike either so...
--
davethedave

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:29:28 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I tried Muzi's recommendation, and it worked. It worked best on the
front tire where I removed the tire and carefully furniture polished
the inside rim wall/bead seat. It worked less well on the rear wheel
where I just pushed the tire back and shot in some polish and ragged it
down (I got lazy). Being lazy meant that I had to wrestle with the
rear tire to get it to seat, but it finally did.

Now we're in to a warm spell with oscillating dry and wet weather and
no new snow. That bike will sit around in the garage. BTW, there is a
pitiful amount of snow for skiing in the mountains, and my son is
coming in for winter break with no new snow and a pre-purchased ski
pass. We're going to be stuck on groomers in spring conditions. Ice in
the shade and slush in the sun. Sucks. That's how I've spent my last
couple of weekends. The only bright spot are my new daily driver
sale-table crud skis, which are a hoot. Low swing weight and high
fun-factor. Imagine a really light touring bike.

-- Jay Beattie.


The physics of it remains obscure to me but, yes, removing the tire and
laying a light mist of wax all around teh rim is dependably effective
and yet glops of it shot under a tire remains hit or miss. Theories
welcome.

Tire fairy?
--
davethedave

On 12/17/2013 4:23 PM, davethedave wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:29:28 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

snip

I tried Muzi's recommendation, and it worked. It worked best on the
front tire where I removed the tire and carefully furniture polished
the inside rim wall/bead seat. It worked less well on the rear wheel
where I just pushed the tire back and shot in some polish and ragged it
down (I got lazy). Being lazy meant that I had to wrestle with the
rear tire to get it to seat, but it finally did.

Now we're in to a warm spell with oscillating dry and wet weather and
no new snow. That bike will sit around in the garage. BTW, there is a
pitiful amount of snow for skiing in the mountains, and my son is
coming in for winter break with no new snow and a pre-purchased ski
pass. We're going to be stuck on groomers in spring conditions. Ice in
the shade and slush in the sun. Sucks. That's how I've spent my last
couple of weekends. The only bright spot are my new daily driver
sale-table crud skis, which are a hoot. Low swing weight and high
fun-factor. Imagine a really light touring bike.

-- Jay Beattie.


The physics of it remains obscure to me but, yes, removing the tire and
laying a light mist of wax all around teh rim is dependably effective
and yet glops of it shot under a tire remains hit or miss. Theories
welcome.

Tire fairy?


Not really.
OK, maybe on Halloween:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...st/hall09b.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

John White wrote:
In article ,
James wrote:

On 18/12/13 05:34, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:07:53 PM UTC-5, Dan O wrote:

If the stripe of paint on the road "tells" people anything, they'd
best see someone about those voices in their heads.

Ah. Then people should stop painting them.

Is there any political pressure being applied to repeal "must use bike
lane" laws there? Assuming you have such laws as we do.

From bicycledriving.org: "Bicycle lane use is mandatory in the
Netherlands, Denmark, Germany (if there is a bike lane sign), France (if
required by local authorities), Ireland, the Canadian Province of Quebec
and the U.S. States of Alabama, California, Florida, Hawaii, Maryland,
New York, and Oregon." I admit I had no idea that it was mandatory
anywhere, and I've biked in at least 3 of those jurisdictions.

In Quebec we have to ride on the far right. If there's a bike lane there
it would be in the lane. We have a law that says we aren't obliged to use
bike paths or trails though.

Personally if I have to ride to the right I prefer it when the cars can't
so I don't mind.

--
duane

On 18/12/13 09:06, John White wrote:
In article ,
James wrote:

On 18/12/13 05:34, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:07:53 PM UTC-5, Dan O wrote:

If the stripe of paint on the road "tells" people anything, they'd
best see someone about those voices in their heads.

Ah. Then people should stop painting them.

Is there any political pressure being applied to repeal "must use bike
lane" laws there? Assuming you have such laws as we do.

From bicycledriving.org: "Bicycle lane use is mandatory in the
Netherlands, Denmark, Germany (if there is a bike lane sign), France (if
required by local authorities), Ireland, the Canadian Province of Quebec
and the U.S. States of Alabama, California, Florida, Hawaii, Maryland,
New York, and Oregon." I admit I had no idea that it was mandatory
anywhere, and I've biked in at least 3 of those jurisdictions.

Thanks, John.

--
JS

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:31:26 PM UTC-5, James wrote:

Is there any political pressure being applied to repeal "must use bike
lane" laws there? Assuming you have such laws as we do.

No pressure to repeal as far as I know, although there could be local efforts.

In most cases, the "requirement" to ride in a bike lane is a fiction, but it's nevertheless enforced (as much as possible) by motorists. I've been yelled at to "get in the bike lane" when there was no bike lane present.

And cops are known to enforce laws that are present only in their imagination. Steve Magas, a bike lawyer in Cincinnati, Ohio, has some amazing stories. For example, this cyclist was ultimately tasered for the "crime" of riding a bike in the roadway:
http://www.ohiobikelawyer.com/uncate...ights-lawsuit/

Part of the problem is, the vast majority of cyclists would say there's never a reason to leave a bike lane. But perhaps a bigger problem is, the national cycling advocacy organization (League of American Bicyclists) also sees no need to fight for our rights to the road.

In one high-profile case (at least, among cyclists concerned about such things) a car-free cyclist and bike blogger in Texas was convicted in a long legal battle because he chose to ride in a normal travel lane, rather than on a sometimes barely passable shoulder. In another case (still in courts, I believe) a cyclist I've met was repeatedly stopped, hassled and ticketed for riding in a traffic lane in Maine. In both cases, there was no law prohibiting their riding as they did, and clear law permitting it, but police and courts enforced imaginary laws "for their safety." In both cases, people appealed strongly to the LAB to provide legal support. LAB turned them down.

So in summary: No real efforts to repeal even mythical laws.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 3:36:12 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:31:26 PM UTC-5, James wrote:



Is there any political pressure being applied to repeal "must use bike
lane" laws there? Assuming you have such laws as we do.

No pressure to repeal as far as I know, although there could be local efforts.


They're local laws.


In most cases, the "requirement" to ride in a bike lane is a fiction,

Exactly. 1) The laws that I have read include ample exceptions -
including blanket exceptions for things like "to avoid an [unspecified]
hazard"; and 2) As you are wont to say, no law can make you (unduly)
endanger yourself.

... but it's nevertheless enforced (as much as possible) by motorists. I've been yelled at to "get in the bike lane" when there was no bike lane present.


You forgot to put quotes around "enforced". Any connection to law in
motorists exerting their will is exceedingly tenuous - very often non-
existent.


And cops are known to enforce laws that are present only in their imagination.

Again, no connection to law (except the laws that say people should
not be hassled by brutes).

Steve Magas, a bike lawyer in Cincinnati, Ohio, has some amazing stories. For example, this cyclist was ultimately tasered for the "crime" of riding a bike in the roadway:

http://www.ohiobikelawyer.com/uncate...ights-lawsuit/


Haven't looked at the example there, but *again*, I suspect it has very
little to do with traffic regulations.


Part of the problem is, the vast majority of cyclists would say there's never a reason to leave a bike lane.


1) Taken literally, that's absurd; and 2) Even taken as you mean it,
that's stupid. Your solution is to do away with the bike lanes?
(You said, "Ah, then they should stop painting them.")

But perhaps a bigger problem is, the national cycling advocacy organization (League of American Bicyclists) also sees no need to fight for our rights to the road.


Shall we ask them if that's their position? I'll do it if you want.


In one high-profile case (at least, among cyclists concerned about such things) a car-free cyclist and bike blogger in Texas was convicted in a long legal battle because he chose to ride in a normal travel lane, rather than on a sometimes barely passable shoulder.


Convicted of what?

In another case (still in courts, I believe) a cyclist I've met was repeatedly stopped, hassled and ticketed for riding in a traffic lane in Maine.


Nice anecdote - devoid of context.

In both cases, there was no law prohibiting their riding as they did, and clear law permitting it, but police and courts enforced imaginary laws "for their safety."


Well, I might be interested in the details, but in the worst case -
as Arlo might say, "Another case of blind justice" - maybe the citizen
who stands for his convictions does some time in the pokey. He's in
good company. Was Mandella wasting "serious time"? Heck, if they make
a big enough scene, maybe you get your message in the sensationlist
media you're always "trumpeting" about.

In both cases, people appealed strongly to the LAB to provide legal support. LAB turned them down.


Hmmm... again - I am wondering about contextual details; but I don't
expect any "organization" to particularly helpful. That's why I'm a
loner, Dottie. A rebel.


So in summary: No real efforts to repeal even mythical laws.


If you repeal a mythical law, does it then take effect?

On 12/17/2013 5:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:31:26 PM UTC-5, James wrote:

Is there any political pressure being applied to repeal "must use bike
lane" laws there? Assuming you have such laws as we do.

No pressure to repeal as far as I know, although there could be local efforts.

In most cases, the "requirement" to ride in a bike lane is a fiction, but it's nevertheless enforced (as much as possible) by motorists. I've been yelled at to "get in the bike lane" when there was no bike lane present.

And cops are known to enforce laws that are present only in their imagination. Steve Magas, a bike lawyer in Cincinnati, Ohio, has some amazing stories. For example, this cyclist was ultimately tasered for the "crime" of riding a bike in the roadway:
http://www.ohiobikelawyer.com/uncate...ights-lawsuit/

Part of the problem is, the vast majority of cyclists would say there's never a reason to leave a bike lane. But perhaps a bigger problem is, the national cycling advocacy organization (League of American Bicyclists) also sees no need to fight for our rights to the road.

In one high-profile case (at least, among cyclists concerned about such things) a car-free cyclist and bike blogger in Texas was convicted in a long legal battle because he chose to ride in a normal travel lane, rather than on a sometimes barely passable shoulder. In another case (still in courts, I believe) a cyclist I've met was repeatedly stopped, hassled and ticketed for riding in a traffic lane in Maine. In both cases, there was no law prohibiting their riding as they did, and clear law permitting it, but police and courts enforced imaginary laws "for their safety." In both cases, people appealed strongly to the LAB to provide legal support. LAB turned them down.

So in summary: No real efforts to repeal even mythical laws.

- Frank Krygowski


As Lou notes, the Dutch law enforcement is known to be
practical in a Nederlander sort of way.

Here, law enforcement ranges from starry-eyed do-gooders to
your slothful inattentive donut eaters to crazed martinets
with a few real sadists with exemplary baton skills thrown
into the mix. You never know which one you'll encounter on
any given day.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 3:08:20 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

Here, law enforcement ranges from starry-eyed do-gooders to
your slothful inattentive donut eaters to crazed martinets
with a few real sadists with exemplary baton skills thrown
into the mix. You never know which one you'll encounter on
any given day.

Absolutely true.

A bike commuter I know recently phoned me for advice. He was stopped by a cop as he rode to work. The cop ran him to the curb, yelled at him abusively and forced him to ride facing traffic "where he belonged, for his own safety." He did ride on the left for a couple blocks till the cop was out of sight, "almost got killed," and returned to the right side of the road.

We urged the guy filed a formal complaint, which he did excellently. But the cop lied to internal affairs about the reason for the order, claiming there was some sort of road obstruction (which still wouldn't have justified the illegal order). But IA excused the cop based on that false statement. Various people with influence within the department are now working to correct the situation, starting at the very top. It's looking like it's going to be taken care of properly.

The good news is that, because of this, there's now a real chance that some of us will be able to get into the police academy to do a presentation on cycling laws, cycling rights, etc.

- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 2:17:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 3:08:20 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:



Here, law enforcement ranges from starry-eyed do-gooders to

your slothful inattentive donut eaters to crazed martinets

with a few real sadists with exemplary baton skills thrown

into the mix. You never know which one you'll encounter on

any given day.



Absolutely true.



A bike commuter I know recently phoned me for advice. He was stopped by a cop as he rode to work. The cop ran him to the curb, yelled at him abusively and forced him to ride facing traffic "where he belonged, for his own safety." He did ride on the left for a couple blocks till the cop was out of sight, "almost got killed," and returned to the right side of the road.


See, it's stories like this that I find incredible. I was pulled over and ticketed by a cop for riding against traffic . . . almost 50 years ago. Even then, the UVC required bicyclists to ride with traffic.

The Ohio driver's manual says as much:

10 - BICYCLES
TRAFFIC LAWS
• Bicyclists must ride with, not against, other vehicular traffic. Only when
walking a bicycle is a bicyclist permitted to travel facing traffic.

http://publicsafety.ohio.gov/links/hsy7607.pdf

So, this cop got his driver's license, presumably read the manual, went to academy and thinks bicycles should ride the wrong way in traffic? That defies common sense, particular since he must see dozens and dozens of cyclists riding with traffic on a daily basis. He would be handing out tickets all day. The only possible explanation is that he is a sadist or lunatic or not even a cop -- or that the story is wrong.

-- Jay Beattie.