Bottle holder

On 5/21/2019 8:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 22 May 2019 06:26:45 +0700, John B.
wrote:

please awaken us and tell us exactly what "machine
shop" features one requires to drill holes in a thin tube?

Probably a V-block and a drill press. I have several of these:
https://www.eastwood.com/drill-press-v-block-fixture-center-it.html
More of the same:
https://www.google.com/search?q=v+block&tbm=isch
Add a proper installation tool:
https://www.amazon.com/RZX-Riveter-Riveting-Setting-mandrels/dp/B07P7M4BKF/
Also, I suppose a sharp drill bit, which only seems to be found in a
machine shop, would be useful.


In theory for a raw tube, yes.
In practice for a tube already inside a bicycle frame the
fixture has a V bottom with a drill guide centered on top.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 5/21/2019 5:56 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 10:26:46 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/21/2019 10:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

$12 for two straps? That seems rather expensive.

It is. But a kluge of cable ties and associated bits and pieces is not
going to work as well and by the time you buy all the parts you'll spend
more time cobbling it together.

There are also the Zefal Gizmo clamps
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MSM1O1H and the Topeak Versa Mount
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077S5G4SL.

Above all, don't use hose clamps! And don't drill holes in the frame for
Rivnuts.

Why ever not? Can you supply us with any evidence that installing a
rivnut, or two, significantly weakens a frame?

All the major manufacturers that have lifetime frame warranties void the
warranty if you alter the frame by drilling holes in it.

But a properly drilled hole does not significantly weaken a frame, and
frame manufacturers drill these holes all the time. It's improperly
drilled holes with stress risers and micro-cracks that are the issue,
especially in aluminum. Additionally, drilling can be difficult in a
frame with tight clearance, you may need to buy a right angle drill.

Of course you don't need to install your own Rivnuts in order to have a
cracking problem, Cannondale used to be nicknaled "Crackendale" for
their frame cracks around the Rivnuts that held on the front derailleur.

Just buy some of these clamps
https://www.merlincycles.com/dmr-hinged-clamp-65637.html or one of the
many other devices designed specifically for this issue.

On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 at 8:41:14 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/21/2019 5:56 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 10:26:46 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/21/2019 10:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

$12 for two straps? That seems rather expensive.

It is. But a kluge of cable ties and associated bits and pieces is not
going to work as well and by the time you buy all the parts you'll spend
more time cobbling it together.

There are also the Zefal Gizmo clamps
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MSM1O1H and the Topeak Versa Mount
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077S5G4SL.

Above all, don't use hose clamps! And don't drill holes in the frame for
Rivnuts.

Why ever not? Can you supply us with any evidence that installing a
rivnut, or two, significantly weakens a frame?

All the major manufacturers that have lifetime frame warranties void the
warranty if you alter the frame by drilling holes in it.

But a properly drilled hole does not significantly weaken a frame, and
frame manufacturers drill these holes all the time. It's improperly
drilled holes with stress risers and micro-cracks that are the issue,
especially in aluminum. Additionally, drilling can be difficult in a
frame with tight clearance, you may need to buy a right angle drill.

Of course you don't need to install your own Rivnuts in order to have a
cracking problem, Cannondale used to be nicknaled "Crackendale" for
their frame cracks around the Rivnuts that held on the front derailleur.

Just buy some of these clamps
https://www.merlincycles.com/dmr-hinged-clamp-65637.html or one of the
many other devices designed specifically for this issue.

EL TORO POO POO! Almost anyone perhaps with the exception of yourself can drill a couple of holes into either an aluminium alloy or steel alloy bicycle frame and install a pair of rivnuts and do so without using any special equipment to do so. Btw, rivnuts can be installed with a long bolt with a nut threaded onto it and the bolt then threaded into the rivnut and tightened.. The bolt is usually a hex socket head and the tool to thread the bolt into the rivnut is a simple Allen key. The bolt gets inserted well into the rivnut, the nut gets turned with a wrench and the rivnut expands and compresses inside the bicycle tube. Simple and quick.

Btw, many people who install their own rivnuts then tour thousands of miles in places like Patagonia without having any problems with the rivnuts whatsoever.

Cheers

On Wed, 22 May 2019 17:41:09 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/21/2019 5:56 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 10:26:46 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/21/2019 10:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

$12 for two straps? That seems rather expensive.

It is. But a kluge of cable ties and associated bits and pieces is not
going to work as well and by the time you buy all the parts you'll spend
more time cobbling it together.

There are also the Zefal Gizmo clamps
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MSM1O1H and the Topeak Versa Mount
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077S5G4SL.

Above all, don't use hose clamps! And don't drill holes in the frame for
Rivnuts.

Why ever not? Can you supply us with any evidence that installing a
rivnut, or two, significantly weakens a frame?

All the major manufacturers that have lifetime frame warranties void the
warranty if you alter the frame by drilling holes in it.

What kind of crappy frames are you buying that you need a warrantee?
Or perhaps, what kind of an awful rider are you that you feel that you
break frames?

I ask as I now have three bikes (I gave the fourth away) one of which
I built from raw tubes and two that I bought used and refurbished. The
"home built" frame is about 12 years old and the two (I call them
classics) are 20 - 30 years old. None of them has broken, bent or
cracked. The one I gave away was only about 10 years old but still
working fine.

One can only assume that you buy cheap junk that breaks a lot.


But a properly drilled hole does not significantly weaken a frame, and
frame manufacturers drill these holes all the time. It's improperly
drilled holes with stress risers and micro-cracks that are the issue,
especially in aluminum. Additionally, drilling can be difficult in a
frame with tight clearance, you may need to buy a right angle drill.

How does one make an improperly drilled hole? Especially one with
abnormal "stress risers" and micro-cracks? I ask as I successfully
completed my apprenticeship as a journeyman machinist in 1950, which
gives me what? Nearly 70 years of experience in drilling holes.

And your experience in the hole making business is?


Of course you don't need to install your own Rivnuts in order to have a
cracking problem, Cannondale used to be nicknaled "Crackendale" for
their frame cracks around the Rivnuts that held on the front derailleur.

Strange you know? Rivnuts were originally made to use on aircraft - to
mount the de-icer boots on the leading edge of aircraft wings - (let
me point out here that the leading edge of an aircraft wing is the
most sensitive portion of the wing and any loose and flapping de-icer
boot would destroy a major portion of the lift on that side of the
airplane ) and have been used on aircraft for about 70 years. Isn't it
strange that there aren't any airplanes (made from aluminum, you know)
that crack excessively because rivnuts are used.

Are you sure that the rivnuts were at fault?



Just buy some of these clamps
https://www.merlincycles.com/dmr-hinged-clamp-65637.html or one of the
many other devices designed specifically for this issue.


Oh! Are you selling clamps to mount bottle cages now? Or do you get
your kickback from simply referencing the web site these days?
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 22 May 2019 19:17:28 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 at 8:41:14 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/21/2019 5:56 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 21 May 2019 10:26:46 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 5/21/2019 10:00 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

$12 for two straps? That seems rather expensive.

It is. But a kluge of cable ties and associated bits and pieces is not
going to work as well and by the time you buy all the parts you'll spend
more time cobbling it together.

There are also the Zefal Gizmo clamps
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MSM1O1H and the Topeak Versa Mount
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077S5G4SL.

Above all, don't use hose clamps! And don't drill holes in the frame for
Rivnuts.

Why ever not? Can you supply us with any evidence that installing a
rivnut, or two, significantly weakens a frame?

All the major manufacturers that have lifetime frame warranties void the
warranty if you alter the frame by drilling holes in it.

But a properly drilled hole does not significantly weaken a frame, and
frame manufacturers drill these holes all the time. It's improperly
drilled holes with stress risers and micro-cracks that are the issue,
especially in aluminum. Additionally, drilling can be difficult in a
frame with tight clearance, you may need to buy a right angle drill.

Of course you don't need to install your own Rivnuts in order to have a
cracking problem, Cannondale used to be nicknaled "Crackendale" for
their frame cracks around the Rivnuts that held on the front derailleur.

Just buy some of these clamps
https://www.merlincycles.com/dmr-hinged-clamp-65637.html or one of the
many other devices designed specifically for this issue.

EL TORO POO POO! Almost anyone perhaps with the exception of yourself can drill a couple of holes into either an aluminium alloy or steel alloy bicycle frame and install a pair of rivnuts and do so without using any special equipment to do so. Btw, rivnuts can be installed with a long bolt with a nut threaded onto it and the bolt then threaded into the rivnut and tightened. The bolt is usually a hex socket head and the tool to thread the bolt into the rivnut is a simple Allen key. The bolt gets inserted well into the rivnut, the nut gets turned with a wrench and the rivnut expands and compresses inside the bicycle tube. Simple and quick.

Btw, many people who install their own rivnuts then tour thousands of miles in places like Patagonia without having any problems with the rivnuts whatsoever.

Cheers

Ah, but those blokes down there in Patagonia aren't trying to convince
you to buy a clamp so that they can get a commission on the sale :-)

--

Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 22 May 2019 09:36:15 +0700, John B.
wrote:

One can only assume that some of our illustrious readers are somewhat
accident prone :-)

Or perhaps they don't know how to cut the excess strap off.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On 5/22/2019 7:42 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

What kind of crappy frames are you buying that you need a warrantee?
Or perhaps, what kind of an awful rider are you that you feel that you
break frames?

I've never broken a frame. But most of my frames are steel. Jay has
replaced his high-end lifetime Cannondale frame multiple times under
warranty. The fact is that if you keep your bicycles for a long time,
you're likely to experience a frame failure at some point in time,
especially with aluminum or carbon fiber. You definitely don't want to
void the warranty for such a ridiculous reason.

snip

How does one make an improperly drilled hole? Especially one with
abnormal "stress risers" and micro-cracks? I ask as I successfully
completed my apprenticeship as a journeyman machinist in 1950, which
gives me what? Nearly 70 years of experience in drilling holes.

Yes, as a journeyman machinist you should have no issue with properly
drilling holes. Surely they taught you about stress concentration when
drilling holes and how to increase fatigue life.

snip

Oh! Are you selling clamps to mount bottle cages now? Or do you get
your kickback from simply referencing the web site these days?

You might want to consider carefully how such ridiculous statements
reflect on you.

On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame. I
tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling
machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame.
Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig
https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/

snip

Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to
prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center
punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could
use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill.

One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to
align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the
tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger
drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was
bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along
its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked
the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist."

Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you
seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the
frame afterward.

On Wednesday, May 22, 2019 at 11:56:09 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/22/2019 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Ok, I yield. A V-block won't work on a finished bicycle frame. I
tend to think in terms of what can be done on a drill press or milling
machine. As you might suspect, I've never used Rivnuts on an a frame.
Water Bottle Mount Drill Jig
https://www.steintool.com/portfolio-items/water-bottle-mount-drill-jig/

snip

Good idea to use this kind of tool to keep the bit straight and to
prevent it from wandering, since you probably don't want to use a center
punch on an aluminum frame. Also to achieve proper spacing. You could
use this on a finished frame with a right-angle drill.

One person wrote: "I found that a standard power drill was difficult to
align on the cylindrical steel tube; the bit tended to drift around the
tube. Even after I created a small pilot hole for each boss, the bigger
drill bit shifted to the side a little. In the end, once the cage was
bolted in place, I realized that one of the bosses was misaligned along
its cylindrical axis. Fortunately, it wasn’t off by much, but it tweaked
the alignment ever so slightly and caused the cage to twist."

Of course if you do go the Rivnut route you also want to ensure that you
seal everything so moisture can't get in since you won't be painting the
frame afterward.

Yet more horse hockey! You can very easily and SAFELY tap a pilot dimple into an aluminium frame tube before you start drilling a hole. Good grief SMS! It's NOT nearly as difficult a job to SAFELY install a rivnut as you make it out to be.

Cheers

On Thu, 23 May 2019 10:43:29 +0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

I would have to say, "But Why?"

1. With a drill guide, there's no need to center punch the frame tube
or drill a pilot hole. Just clamp the jig to the tube, and drill.
2. Even with a pilot hole, keeping the drill bit from wandering is
not easy. I'm rather bad at eyeballing an electric hand drill so that
the bit is exactly perpendicular to the tube.
3. Because it's possible to do the drilling in my sleep, which is
likely to be the case.
4. With an fully assembled bicycle (or frame), an off center hole,
bad spacing between the Rivnuts, slip of the drill, or other alignment
error, and much of the bicycle might be considered scrap metal. Best
to build a proper jig and do it perfectly the first time.
5. Chances are good that one might be drilling holes in other frames
for Rivnuts. It would therefore pay to build a jig to make it easier.

After all it is only two holes about 7 cm apart. It is not, as they
say, "Rocket Science".

Not everyone has a machine shop or a machinists skills. Backyard
mechanics are not known for their precision drilling. Best to give
them a mechanical assist (i.e. a jig).

Why not just mark the spot(s) for the holes on the frame and than just
drill the holes? Even, if necessary, ding a bit of a mark on the tube
with a center punch - I say that with a certain amount of caution, as
I don't mean Whap It!, just a tiny little dimple, just enough to get
the drill started. Then drill a pilot hole with, maybe a 1/16" drill,
to make sure that the full size drill doesn't wander off the mark.
Than just drill it.

Sounds good, which brings me back to the previous problem. How is one
going to rigidly clamp the frame to be able to drill the holes?
However, that's now where the aforementioned procedure is going to
screw up. What will happen is that both the center punch mark and
pilot hole will probably be perfectly placed. What will fail is that
the actual Rivnut hole drill will wander sideways if the drill is not
perfectly perpendicular to the tubing. The drill needs some kind of
clamping jig to keep it perpendicular. If it can't be done on a drill
press or mill, then clamping a v-block and drill guide to the tube is
a good substitute.

You don't even have to be terribly accurate as all the bottle cages
I've seen have at least one of the mounting holes elongated to fit
even if the mounting holes in the frame aren't perfectly spaced.

Remind me not to let you work on any of my bicycles.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558