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#91
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HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING? DEPENDS ON WHICH NUMBERS YOU EMPHASISE.
On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 6:50:58 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 4:28:52 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2019 12:16:13 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 7:27:58 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Thu, 16 May 2019 18:28:00 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/16/2019 1:10 AM, jbeattie wrote: Without getting into the prudence of an adult MHL, I could see a MHL causing significant drops in certain populations. Perhaps, but that's not what happened in Australia. In fact numbers went up right after the MHL, just not as fast as the population increase. When that fact was noted, the AHZs insisted that the reason that cycling numbers went up slower than the population growth was because of the MHL--even when the data didn't support their premise they simply created a rationalization to excuse the actual data. Of course that was of little importance since when the actual data doesn't support their position they just fabricate data to suit them. If traffic is no so bad that you really need to ride a bike, then people with a "live free or die" or "don't muss my hair" or overheat my head mentality may not ride -- assuming there is any real effort to enforce the law. In Amsterdam, people would probably just ignore the law, and there would be no change. In the London scrum, they may comply because driving is impossible and riding is objectively dangerous. In Portland, compliance is pretty high already and enforcement would be nil, so there would be no change. It really depends on the population. I don't see any reason why the drop in Australia couldn't be "real" as opposed to or the result of some confounding factor. Entire populations can become entrenched on some relatively minor issues. Tomorrow we kick off construction of some protected bike lanes near a high school. These are real protected bike lanes, not some widely placed pop-up bollards. While I would be thrilled to get the increase in cycling that they saw in Columbus Ohio (75%) http://www.dot.state.oh.us/engineering/OTEC/2017Presentations/72/Moorhead_72.pdf I'd be happy with just 15%. The fact that we're doing real protected bike lanes will hopefully mean that we see less of an increase in non-fatal crashes than Columbus saw. Perusing any of the studies of bicycle accidents that included an attempt at defining who was at fault, who basically caused the accident, shows that from about 30, to over 50 percent ( in one study) of the "accidents" between motor vehicles and bicycles were the fault of the bicyclist, and this ignores the fact that a substantial percentage, as many as 30%, in some studies, of all bicycle crashes are "single vehicle crashes". Thus it seems likely that simply building a private road for bicycles while it may decrease bicycle versus motor vehicle crashes where the fault lies with the motor vehicle it is not likely, as the "Columbus Study" demonstrated, to reduce crashes significantly. In fact the fact that the bicycles are protected from any attack by motor vehicles will likely result in an increase in the "stupid stunts" that bicyclists seem to do. One study, for example, listed "failure to yield right of way", by both motor vehicles and bicycles, as a major cause of crashes. Will being isolated from motor vehicles on the Bicycle Road reduce the number of "failure to yield", by bicycle, incidents? Or, for that matter, the number of single vehicle crashes? One of the questions about the reduction in bicyclists when the Australia helmet law went into effect was "is this a result of having to wear a helmet?" Or is it "a result of discovering that bicycling had become so dangerous that one must wear a helmet to be safe?" -- cheers, John B. True John, but it does reduce fatalities. Single vehicle accidents only rarely end in fatalities. Though watching that Frenchman descending Mt Hamilton in the Tour of California might have given you doubts. I cannot believe a man that strong and a pro with a 7 minute lead had absolutely NO idea of how to take a corner at speed. Does it? I wonder. The figures I read are more in line with "of those that had a head injury only xyz were wearing a helmet", but what is a head injury? "Scratched your nose" is a head injury. What I don't see is number such as "of those with fractures of the skull or brain damage XYZ ware wearing a helmet." Probably because in an accident that severe a bicycle helmet would do no good at all. I recently read an article that stated that even U.S. football helmets which are far more protective than a bicycle helmet do not protect from brain damage so how can a Styrofoam Bennie, with holes in, protect one from significant head or brain injury. -- cheers, John B. I have not been a believer in helmets for a very long time now. But the new Bontrager (Trek) helmets are something else altogether though they certainly have a long way to go to make them more comfortable. I bought a Chinese helmet that is really comfortable but it lacks the technology of the Bontrager which has engineered the foam to actually be absorbent. I read a bit about the New! Improved! (more expensive) Bontrager helmet. It's claim to fame is that it allows 6mm of rotational movement. 6 mm, think of it? Trek's data says that this new foam has 28 times less chance of causing concussion which is the majority injury to bicyclist with severe injuries. Data? I wonder. After all the best football helmet, and you must admit that football helmets do a much better job of protection than bicycle helmets, provide about 20% protection but the NEW! Improved! Bontrager helmets provide almost a third more protection? -- cheers, John B. I'd like to see helmets tested in a manner similar to automobile safety testing. that is, strap the helmet onto a dummy and then crash the bike and see what forces (including rotational) are imparted to the helmet. I wonder if ANY bicycling helmet currently in production would pass such a test? I doubt it including the newer MIPS design. I think MIPS is just another marketing gimmick. Oh, btw, I do NOT trust anything a manufacturer of helmets says. Like politicians they are seeking to sell their wares. Cheers |
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#92
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HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING? DEPENDS ON WHICH NUMBERS YOU EMPHASISE.
On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 8:55:35 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
I wouldn't assign ulterior motives to people who feel very uncomfortable riding around traffic. +1. There are some roads that are objectively dangerous to ride on. We have several such going out of town. On the worst of these dangerous roads, there are trucks thundering along this narrow country road in both directions at maximum permitted speed, and a hard shoulder 12in wide at best, disappearing totally in some places. I've been on it, and it's an unpleasant ride with trucks thundering 18in max from your shoulders. You can't take the lane either, because there won't be enough space for the truck behind you to slow to your speed, and he can't pass you in the opposite lane because trucks are thundering towards him in that lane. I refused to ride on it with the police superintendent for this area, and a while later he was killed cycling on that road. Think on it: who should know the safe roads better than the police superintendent? There are some places it simply isn't smart to ride a bicycle. Morons like Krygowski screeching "Danger! Danger!" and "Take the lane!" don't help; instead they leave the impression that cyclists are a bunch of reckless idiots antisocially endangering other people's lives by their insistence on riding where the speed differential is simply too large and the traffic too heavy and the sightlines for drivers too short. In any event, cyclists always have other choices, recreational cyclists admittedly more than commuters. A bus driver spoke to me at the supermarket about a four-seasons commuter on one of his routes, a very narrow twisty road with many unsighted corners, asking me to speak to the fellow about the danger. I did, and he said, "I'm on that road because all the bus drivers and motor commuters know me and look out for me. The only alternative is the main drag to the city--" he watched me shudder "--and the road past the airport." That bit left me speechless, not a common occurrence. I've been on both the roads he rejected, and the only safe way to go on them is in huge convoys of cycles, as on for instance charity rides, with several big SUVs spaced out behind to break the speed of the normal motor traffic. On one such ride I joined, the organisers thought five ambulances necessary, and I couldn't help wondering what Franki-boy would say to them. I also heard insurance was hell to get, with some insurers simply refusing even to quote. The small country road the town's premier bicycle-commuter considers "safer", we cross and recross on many small country lane rides. At one point on an otherwise really good workout ride in pretty surroundings on smooth roads with almost zero traffic, you need to ride for a couple of hundred yards on it, and somebody never fails to have a tense moment with a car or a truck on it even in those couple of hundred yards because we enter just after a blind corner, and the cars are travelling at a speed that makes it difficult for them to slow to our speed, and there's no shoulder so perforce we're in the lane, or already in the middle of the road because we want to turn across the oncoming traffic (coming around another unsighted corner; some who're otherwise keen just won't ride with us if the route will take us onto that road. At several times of the day, even just crossing that road, what with its many blind hills and blind corners, on the country lanes that cross it, can take ten minutes before there's a break in the traffic long enough to cross. There's another ride, on an even smaller country road, but fast and wide-sweeping so that cars can see you a long way off and slow appropriately, which requires one to be on the dangerous road (the one the admirable commuter prefers to even more dangerous roads) only for about fifty yards before one of our small lanes turns off it, but we go there only on Sundays when everyone else is in church (this is a Catholic country, still) because those 50 yards lie between two black spots (a black spot is the scene of regular automobile accidents, because the road is intrinsically dangerous, and the road authorities put up warning boards with a black spot on them). It may sound like I'd better ride intervals around my orchard, but in fact the majority of miles around here are on small, safe lanes**, all of them tarmac-topped. Since we're recreational riders, we don't mind mapping routes that keep us off the six dangerous roads out of town*. It's not worth the stress of going on them. I ran into an old pedalpal with whom I'd lost contact and he reminisced about how thirty years ago we used to go on three of those six roads (the other three were already too dangerous) after dinner in the summer, returning at about midnight when it was pitch dark, with only the inadequate bicycle lamps of the period, because there was almost no traffic and what there was proceeded at a reasonable speed, about half the rate they drive at today; he went out on one of those roads in broad daylight the other day and in less than three miles experienced so many close passes of trucks and cars that he turned off the main road and continued on the lanes. He said, "I'm cycling for my heart. Man, I was praying for Baxter's Bridge to come up so I could get the **** out of that Death Rally. I don't need that stress." I understand how he feels. A favourite downhill ride of mine ends on that road only a few hundred yards from town, but rather than ride on that road, I turn around and slog back up the hill and go home the long, hard but stressless way (or at least, via my HRM, in control of the stress). The point I'm trying to make is that if you choose your routes well, the usual amount of common sense and alertness an adult should possess will keep you safe and make your rides a joy rather than a chore. There is no need to force your way in where you're not wanted by people going about their business at speeds you cannot and don't want to achieve. Andre Jute Some places "taking the lane" is a suicide note *Beside one of which a few years ago a wooden cross was planted in memory of one "John Forester". It's a road on part of which cyclists who want to live "take the ditch", which is three feet wide, only a foot deep, and paved, quite pleasant really in dry weather. Makes one wonder whether the memorial is for that John Forester. **Doesn't mean you don't need to take care; you had better: a schoolboy was killed on his bike on one of my favourite downhills when at the bottom of the hill he met an oncoming car whose driver never saw him around the curve until it was far too late. |
#93
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HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING? DEPENDS ON WHICH NUMBERS YOU EMPHASISE.
Rideablot is RBT's funniest conspiracy theorist! NFT. -- AJ
On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 5:00:37 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote: I often wonder if the agenda of the "DANGER! DANGER!" people like SMS is to first get bicyclists off the roads and into bike lanes or "protected lanes" and then later to get them off the roads entirely? From what I've seen and read it seems to me that many so called bicycling advocates are in fact commuting/transportation bicyclists worst enemies. What with all their emphasis on needed safety equipment in order to even ride a bicycle it's a wonder they expect to convince anyone to take up bicycling as a means of commuting or transportation. Cheers |
#94
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HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING? DEPENDS ON WHICH NUMBERS YOU EMPHASISE.
On Sat, 18 May 2019 16:04:49 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 6:50:58 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Sat, 18 May 2019 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 4:28:52 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2019 12:16:13 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 7:27:58 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Thu, 16 May 2019 18:28:00 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/16/2019 1:10 AM, jbeattie wrote: Without getting into the prudence of an adult MHL, I could see a MHL causing significant drops in certain populations. Perhaps, but that's not what happened in Australia. In fact numbers went up right after the MHL, just not as fast as the population increase. When that fact was noted, the AHZs insisted that the reason that cycling numbers went up slower than the population growth was because of the MHL--even when the data didn't support their premise they simply created a rationalization to excuse the actual data. Of course that was of little importance since when the actual data doesn't support their position they just fabricate data to suit them. If traffic is no so bad that you really need to ride a bike, then people with a "live free or die" or "don't muss my hair" or overheat my head mentality may not ride -- assuming there is any real effort to enforce the law. In Amsterdam, people would probably just ignore the law, and there would be no change. In the London scrum, they may comply because driving is impossible and riding is objectively dangerous. In Portland, compliance is pretty high already and enforcement would be nil, so there would be no change. It really depends on the population. I don't see any reason why the drop in Australia couldn't be "real" as opposed to or the result of some confounding factor. Entire populations can become entrenched on some relatively minor issues. Tomorrow we kick off construction of some protected bike lanes near a high school. These are real protected bike lanes, not some widely placed pop-up bollards. While I would be thrilled to get the increase in cycling that they saw in Columbus Ohio (75%) http://www.dot.state.oh.us/engineering/OTEC/2017Presentations/72/Moorhead_72.pdf I'd be happy with just 15%. The fact that we're doing real protected bike lanes will hopefully mean that we see less of an increase in non-fatal crashes than Columbus saw. Perusing any of the studies of bicycle accidents that included an attempt at defining who was at fault, who basically caused the accident, shows that from about 30, to over 50 percent ( in one study) of the "accidents" between motor vehicles and bicycles were the fault of the bicyclist, and this ignores the fact that a substantial percentage, as many as 30%, in some studies, of all bicycle crashes are "single vehicle crashes". Thus it seems likely that simply building a private road for bicycles while it may decrease bicycle versus motor vehicle crashes where the fault lies with the motor vehicle it is not likely, as the "Columbus Study" demonstrated, to reduce crashes significantly. In fact the fact that the bicycles are protected from any attack by motor vehicles will likely result in an increase in the "stupid stunts" that bicyclists seem to do. One study, for example, listed "failure to yield right of way", by both motor vehicles and bicycles, as a major cause of crashes. Will being isolated from motor vehicles on the Bicycle Road reduce the number of "failure to yield", by bicycle, incidents? Or, for that matter, the number of single vehicle crashes? One of the questions about the reduction in bicyclists when the Australia helmet law went into effect was "is this a result of having to wear a helmet?" Or is it "a result of discovering that bicycling had become so dangerous that one must wear a helmet to be safe?" -- cheers, John B. True John, but it does reduce fatalities. Single vehicle accidents only rarely end in fatalities. Though watching that Frenchman descending Mt Hamilton in the Tour of California might have given you doubts. I cannot believe a man that strong and a pro with a 7 minute lead had absolutely NO idea of how to take a corner at speed. Does it? I wonder. The figures I read are more in line with "of those that had a head injury only xyz were wearing a helmet", but what is a head injury? "Scratched your nose" is a head injury. What I don't see is number such as "of those with fractures of the skull or brain damage XYZ ware wearing a helmet." Probably because in an accident that severe a bicycle helmet would do no good at all. I recently read an article that stated that even U.S. football helmets which are far more protective than a bicycle helmet do not protect from brain damage so how can a Styrofoam Bennie, with holes in, protect one from significant head or brain injury. -- cheers, John B. I have not been a believer in helmets for a very long time now. But the new Bontrager (Trek) helmets are something else altogether though they certainly have a long way to go to make them more comfortable. I bought a Chinese helmet that is really comfortable but it lacks the technology of the Bontrager which has engineered the foam to actually be absorbent. I read a bit about the New! Improved! (more expensive) Bontrager helmet. It's claim to fame is that it allows 6mm of rotational movement. 6 mm, think of it? Trek's data says that this new foam has 28 times less chance of causing concussion which is the majority injury to bicyclist with severe injuries. Data? I wonder. After all the best football helmet, and you must admit that football helmets do a much better job of protection than bicycle helmets, provide about 20% protection but the NEW! Improved! Bontrager helmets provide almost a third more protection? -- cheers, John B. I'd like to see helmets tested in a manner similar to automobile safety testing. that is, strap the helmet onto a dummy and then crash the bike and see what forces (including rotational) are imparted to the helmet. I wonder if ANY bicycling helmet currently in production would pass such a test? I doubt it including the newer MIPS design. I think MIPS is just another marketing gimmick. Oh, btw, I do NOT trust anything a manufacturer of helmets says. Like politicians they are seeking to sell their wares. Cheers Mips is said to address what is said to be one of the common causes of brain damage in crashes, (in 60% of casualties, rotational forces are known to be a major source of brain injury) but whether the new Bontrager helmets actually are effective doesn't seem to be known, or at least I've yet to see the results of any tests. I think that a helmet that provided maximum protection to the cyclist would not sell. It would be heavy, restrict vision to some extent, and undoubtedly be hot - think modern football helmet, F1 Helmet, Motorcycle Racing helmets. A modern, racing motorcycle helmet weighs more then a kilogram - The AGV Corsa, a top line racing helmet weighs 1.35kg (about 3 lbs). I well remember the post, here, where someone (I don't remember who) stated that to him the most important things about a helmet were (1) that it was light in weight, and (2) cool to wear. Also, regarding helmet tests read up on the Sharp Testing, which seems to be a supplemental British testing agency. https://billyscrashhelmets.co.uk/all...safety-scheme/ -- cheers, John B. |
#95
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HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING? DEPENDS ON WHICH NUMBERS YOU EMPHASISE.
On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 10:36:42 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 16:04:49 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 6:50:58 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Sat, 18 May 2019 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 4:28:52 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2019 12:16:13 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 7:27:58 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Thu, 16 May 2019 18:28:00 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/16/2019 1:10 AM, jbeattie wrote: Without getting into the prudence of an adult MHL, I could see a MHL causing significant drops in certain populations. Perhaps, but that's not what happened in Australia. In fact numbers went up right after the MHL, just not as fast as the population increase. When that fact was noted, the AHZs insisted that the reason that cycling numbers went up slower than the population growth was because of the MHL--even when the data didn't support their premise they simply created a rationalization to excuse the actual data. Of course that was of little importance since when the actual data doesn't support their position they just fabricate data to suit them. If traffic is no so bad that you really need to ride a bike, then people with a "live free or die" or "don't muss my hair" or overheat my head mentality may not ride -- assuming there is any real effort to enforce the law. In Amsterdam, people would probably just ignore the law, and there would be no change. In the London scrum, they may comply because driving is impossible and riding is objectively dangerous. In Portland, compliance is pretty high already and enforcement would be nil, so there would be no change. It really depends on the population. I don't see any reason why the drop in Australia couldn't be "real" as opposed to or the result of some confounding factor. Entire populations can become entrenched on some relatively minor issues. Tomorrow we kick off construction of some protected bike lanes near a high school. These are real protected bike lanes, not some widely placed pop-up bollards. While I would be thrilled to get the increase in cycling that they saw in Columbus Ohio (75%) http://www.dot.state.oh.us/engineering/OTEC/2017Presentations/72/Moorhead_72.pdf I'd be happy with just 15%. The fact that we're doing real protected bike lanes will hopefully mean that we see less of an increase in non-fatal crashes than Columbus saw. Perusing any of the studies of bicycle accidents that included an attempt at defining who was at fault, who basically caused the accident, shows that from about 30, to over 50 percent ( in one study) of the "accidents" between motor vehicles and bicycles were the fault of the bicyclist, and this ignores the fact that a substantial percentage, as many as 30%, in some studies, of all bicycle crashes are "single vehicle crashes". Thus it seems likely that simply building a private road for bicycles while it may decrease bicycle versus motor vehicle crashes where the fault lies with the motor vehicle it is not likely, as the "Columbus Study" demonstrated, to reduce crashes significantly. In fact the fact that the bicycles are protected from any attack by motor vehicles will likely result in an increase in the "stupid stunts" that bicyclists seem to do. One study, for example, listed "failure to yield right of way", by both motor vehicles and bicycles, as a major cause of crashes. Will being isolated from motor vehicles on the Bicycle Road reduce the number of "failure to yield", by bicycle, incidents? Or, for that matter, the number of single vehicle crashes? One of the questions about the reduction in bicyclists when the Australia helmet law went into effect was "is this a result of having to wear a helmet?" Or is it "a result of discovering that bicycling had become so dangerous that one must wear a helmet to be safe?" -- cheers, John B. True John, but it does reduce fatalities. Single vehicle accidents only rarely end in fatalities. Though watching that Frenchman descending Mt Hamilton in the Tour of California might have given you doubts. I cannot believe a man that strong and a pro with a 7 minute lead had absolutely NO idea of how to take a corner at speed. Does it? I wonder. The figures I read are more in line with "of those that had a head injury only xyz were wearing a helmet", but what is a head injury? "Scratched your nose" is a head injury. What I don't see is number such as "of those with fractures of the skull or brain damage XYZ ware wearing a helmet." Probably because in an accident that severe a bicycle helmet would do no good at all. I recently read an article that stated that even U.S. football helmets which are far more protective than a bicycle helmet do not protect from brain damage so how can a Styrofoam Bennie, with holes in, protect one from significant head or brain injury. -- cheers, John B. I have not been a believer in helmets for a very long time now. But the new Bontrager (Trek) helmets are something else altogether though they certainly have a long way to go to make them more comfortable. I bought a Chinese helmet that is really comfortable but it lacks the technology of the Bontrager which has engineered the foam to actually be absorbent. I read a bit about the New! Improved! (more expensive) Bontrager helmet. It's claim to fame is that it allows 6mm of rotational movement. 6 mm, think of it? Trek's data says that this new foam has 28 times less chance of causing concussion which is the majority injury to bicyclist with severe injuries. Data? I wonder. After all the best football helmet, and you must admit that football helmets do a much better job of protection than bicycle helmets, provide about 20% protection but the NEW! Improved! Bontrager helmets provide almost a third more protection? -- cheers, John B. I'd like to see helmets tested in a manner similar to automobile safety testing. that is, strap the helmet onto a dummy and then crash the bike and see what forces (including rotational) are imparted to the helmet. I wonder if ANY bicycling helmet currently in production would pass such a test? I doubt it including the newer MIPS design. I think MIPS is just another marketing gimmick. Oh, btw, I do NOT trust anything a manufacturer of helmets says. Like politicians they are seeking to sell their wares. Cheers Mips is said to address what is said to be one of the common causes of brain damage in crashes, (in 60% of casualties, rotational forces are known to be a major source of brain injury) but whether the new Bontrager helmets actually are effective doesn't seem to be known, or at least I've yet to see the results of any tests. I think that a helmet that provided maximum protection to the cyclist would not sell. It would be heavy, restrict vision to some extent, and undoubtedly be hot - think modern football helmet, F1 Helmet, Motorcycle Racing helmets. A modern, racing motorcycle helmet weighs more then a kilogram - The AGV Corsa, a top line racing helmet weighs 1.35kg (about 3 lbs). I well remember the post, here, where someone (I don't remember who) stated that to him the most important things about a helmet were (1) that it was light in weight, and (2) cool to wear. Also, regarding helmet tests read up on the Sharp Testing, which seems to be a supplemental British testing agency. https://billyscrashhelmets.co.uk/all...safety-scheme/ -- cheers, John B. Interesting. Also interesting are the comments about a=ANSI and SNELL anti-penetration requirements especially the comment that a super rigid non-flexible outer hard shell transmits more energy to the liner than a less rigid shell. With the ultra thin shells on bicycle helmets that would mean that ALL of energy has to be absorbed by the liner. I've seen many cracked helmets or images of the same wherein people point at them and said the helmet worked. I tell them that because the helmet broke it means the impact SURPASSED what the helmet was capable of protecting from. I really would like to see some test by independents that tested the helmets in a manner that mimics real world use. The current standards and tests are ridiculously low. Cheers |
#96
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HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING? DEPENDS ON WHICH NUMBERS YOU EMPHASISE.
On Sat, 18 May 2019 20:18:32 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 10:36:42 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Sat, 18 May 2019 16:04:49 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 6:50:58 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote: On Sat, 18 May 2019 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 4:28:52 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2019 12:16:13 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 7:27:58 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: On Thu, 16 May 2019 18:28:00 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/16/2019 1:10 AM, jbeattie wrote: Without getting into the prudence of an adult MHL, I could see a MHL causing significant drops in certain populations. Perhaps, but that's not what happened in Australia. In fact numbers went up right after the MHL, just not as fast as the population increase. When that fact was noted, the AHZs insisted that the reason that cycling numbers went up slower than the population growth was because of the MHL--even when the data didn't support their premise they simply created a rationalization to excuse the actual data. Of course that was of little importance since when the actual data doesn't support their position they just fabricate data to suit them. If traffic is no so bad that you really need to ride a bike, then people with a "live free or die" or "don't muss my hair" or overheat my head mentality may not ride -- assuming there is any real effort to enforce the law. In Amsterdam, people would probably just ignore the law, and there would be no change. In the London scrum, they may comply because driving is impossible and riding is objectively dangerous. In Portland, compliance is pretty high already and enforcement would be nil, so there would be no change. It really depends on the population. I don't see any reason why the drop in Australia couldn't be "real" as opposed to or the result of some confounding factor. Entire populations can become entrenched on some relatively minor issues. Tomorrow we kick off construction of some protected bike lanes near a high school. These are real protected bike lanes, not some widely placed pop-up bollards. While I would be thrilled to get the increase in cycling that they saw in Columbus Ohio (75%) http://www.dot.state.oh.us/engineering/OTEC/2017Presentations/72/Moorhead_72.pdf I'd be happy with just 15%. The fact that we're doing real protected bike lanes will hopefully mean that we see less of an increase in non-fatal crashes than Columbus saw. Perusing any of the studies of bicycle accidents that included an attempt at defining who was at fault, who basically caused the accident, shows that from about 30, to over 50 percent ( in one study) of the "accidents" between motor vehicles and bicycles were the fault of the bicyclist, and this ignores the fact that a substantial percentage, as many as 30%, in some studies, of all bicycle crashes are "single vehicle crashes". Thus it seems likely that simply building a private road for bicycles while it may decrease bicycle versus motor vehicle crashes where the fault lies with the motor vehicle it is not likely, as the "Columbus Study" demonstrated, to reduce crashes significantly. In fact the fact that the bicycles are protected from any attack by motor vehicles will likely result in an increase in the "stupid stunts" that bicyclists seem to do. One study, for example, listed "failure to yield right of way", by both motor vehicles and bicycles, as a major cause of crashes. Will being isolated from motor vehicles on the Bicycle Road reduce the number of "failure to yield", by bicycle, incidents? Or, for that matter, the number of single vehicle crashes? One of the questions about the reduction in bicyclists when the Australia helmet law went into effect was "is this a result of having to wear a helmet?" Or is it "a result of discovering that bicycling had become so dangerous that one must wear a helmet to be safe?" -- cheers, John B. True John, but it does reduce fatalities. Single vehicle accidents only rarely end in fatalities. Though watching that Frenchman descending Mt Hamilton in the Tour of California might have given you doubts. I cannot believe a man that strong and a pro with a 7 minute lead had absolutely NO idea of how to take a corner at speed. Does it? I wonder. The figures I read are more in line with "of those that had a head injury only xyz were wearing a helmet", but what is a head injury? "Scratched your nose" is a head injury. What I don't see is number such as "of those with fractures of the skull or brain damage XYZ ware wearing a helmet." Probably because in an accident that severe a bicycle helmet would do no good at all. I recently read an article that stated that even U.S. football helmets which are far more protective than a bicycle helmet do not protect from brain damage so how can a Styrofoam Bennie, with holes in, protect one from significant head or brain injury. -- cheers, John B. I have not been a believer in helmets for a very long time now. But the new Bontrager (Trek) helmets are something else altogether though they certainly have a long way to go to make them more comfortable. I bought a Chinese helmet that is really comfortable but it lacks the technology of the Bontrager which has engineered the foam to actually be absorbent. I read a bit about the New! Improved! (more expensive) Bontrager helmet. It's claim to fame is that it allows 6mm of rotational movement. 6 mm, think of it? Trek's data says that this new foam has 28 times less chance of causing concussion which is the majority injury to bicyclist with severe injuries. Data? I wonder. After all the best football helmet, and you must admit that football helmets do a much better job of protection than bicycle helmets, provide about 20% protection but the NEW! Improved! Bontrager helmets provide almost a third more protection? -- cheers, John B. I'd like to see helmets tested in a manner similar to automobile safety testing. that is, strap the helmet onto a dummy and then crash the bike and see what forces (including rotational) are imparted to the helmet. I wonder if ANY bicycling helmet currently in production would pass such a test? I doubt it including the newer MIPS design. I think MIPS is just another marketing gimmick. Oh, btw, I do NOT trust anything a manufacturer of helmets says. Like politicians they are seeking to sell their wares. Cheers Mips is said to address what is said to be one of the common causes of brain damage in crashes, (in 60% of casualties, rotational forces are known to be a major source of brain injury) but whether the new Bontrager helmets actually are effective doesn't seem to be known, or at least I've yet to see the results of any tests. I think that a helmet that provided maximum protection to the cyclist would not sell. It would be heavy, restrict vision to some extent, and undoubtedly be hot - think modern football helmet, F1 Helmet, Motorcycle Racing helmets. A modern, racing motorcycle helmet weighs more then a kilogram - The AGV Corsa, a top line racing helmet weighs 1.35kg (about 3 lbs). I well remember the post, here, where someone (I don't remember who) stated that to him the most important things about a helmet were (1) that it was light in weight, and (2) cool to wear. Also, regarding helmet tests read up on the Sharp Testing, which seems to be a supplemental British testing agency. https://billyscrashhelmets.co.uk/all...safety-scheme/ -- cheers, John B. Interesting. Also interesting are the comments about a=ANSI and SNELL anti-penetration requirements especially the comment that a super rigid non-flexible outer hard shell transmits more energy to the liner than a less rigid shell. With the ultra thin shells on bicycle helmets that would mean that ALL of energy has to be absorbed by the liner. I've seen many cracked helmets or images of the same wherein people point at them and said the helmet worked. I tell them that because the helmet broke it means the impact SURPASSED what the helmet was capable of protecting from. I really would like to see some test by independents that tested the helmets in a manner that mimics real world use. The current standards and tests are ridiculously low. Cheers Ridiculously low: Some time ago I read an article that I believe was written by the head of the British unit that certifies bike helmets. He said, in the article, that today's standards for bicycle helmets are lower than the original standards and implied (I assumed) that the standards had been lowered to make helmets cheaper to manufacture. I had a look at a site: https://helmets.org that stated that they tested helmets by dropping them on a shape similar to a curb stone from a distance of 1 - 2 meters. Using information from their site I find that a drop of one meter is equal to a speed of 15.9 KPH and a 2 meter drop is equal to a speed of 22.5 KPH, which are equal to a speed in miles per hour of 9.879 and 13.980. Obviously no one rides a bicycle faster than 13.98 mph. Never, Ever, No Way! -- cheers, John B. |
#97
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HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING? DEPENDS ON WHICH NUMBERS YOU EMPHASISE.
John B. wrote:
On Sat, 18 May 2019 01:04:14 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/17/2019 4:12 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2019 08:49:37 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/16/2019 5:54 PM, John B. wrote: snip It seems likely that there are a multitude of reasons for people not commuting by bicycle ranging from "Oh! I just had my hair done", to "OH! But 3 miles is too far to go by bicycle", to "Good Lord! It's raining", to "Oh My God! My head hurts. No more booze on weekdays!", to "I don't wanna wear a Helmet!". When I was working in Jakarta I used to ride 100 km every Sunday morning but wouldn't have dreamed of commuting to work by bike. Partially because a chauffeur driven car was one of the perks of the job, partially because a white shirt and tie was more or less the standard uniform for managers in the business and one didn't want to be calling on clients looking all hot and sweaty, and partially because I spent the ride to work planning my day. While a dedicated bicyclist might argue that these are all surmountable problems the whole point is that they were sufficient, for me to decide not to ride a bike to work. Yes, in a tropical climate the "hot and sweaty" issue is a big one. In my area, the weather is mild, most larger companies have showering and changing facilities, and white shirts and ties are rare. The bigger issues around here a 1. I need to pick up children after work or attend their school activities. 2. I have to work late hours (very common in Silicon Valley because you've got a lot of conference calls late at night when it's daytime in Asia) 3. There's no safe route. 4. There's no secure bike parking. We can address 2, 3, and 4, but addressing 1 is hard. There's no helmet law for adults here, but it's rare to see any professionals riding without one. However professionals are only one segment of the cycling population. We have a lot of seniors from China living with their adult children and they ride without helmets. We have a lot of day workers that combine the bus and a bicycle. Riding without lights is actually a bigger issue around here, and I just received my first shipment of 200 rechargeable lights to give out. I suppose we could also try to fund helmets, but really it's unnecessary. You can buy a new helmet for $15, sometimes even less. The cost is not the reason some people don't wear helmets, they just are willing to accept the slight extra risk and not wear one. Taking steps to make cycling safer are more important than imposing helmet requirements. Just don't fall for the false narrative that if helmets are required then suddenly mass numbers of people will give up cycling in protest--there's never been any evidence of this happening. Making cycling safer? Is cycling safe? Or is cycling unsafe? Or is cycling only perceived as unsafe? Yes, all of the above. I ask as annually, in the U.S., approximately 750 people die while cycling and nearly that many die falling out of bed and since there seems to be no concept that going to bed is "dangerous" than it can't be a matter of simple numbers. Oh no, you're not going to start up with this nonsense are you. Taking injury and fatality numbers completely out of context is reserved for Frank. No one else is allowed to engage in this. I see. Nonsense because that ~759 bicyclists die each year? Because some 737 die from falling out of bed? Or nonsense because it doesn't agree with your highly political opinion? I suggest that the latter is the most likely truth. Maybe he’d prefer if you talked about the percentage of cyclists who died cycling compared to the percentage of people that sleep in beds who died falling out of beds. Not that I think either activity is very dangerous but this nonsense is getting boring. Various studies of bicycle "accidents" have found that from about 30% to as much as 60% (in at least one study) of the accidents are the fault of the cyclist which really does make one wonder about the mind set of the cyclists. "Hey! Just use good sense and obey the traffic laws and save your life. " I find it very strange that no one ever seems to mention this simple fact. It is free, it can save you from death, pain, or an expensive stay in the hospital, but it seems to be a fact that is kept a secret and instead we are told to "wear a helmet", or "we gotta build safer bicycle paths". Are the bicycle paths 30 to 60% safer? Reports I read seem to indicate that they are even less safe than riding on the open road. Actually I mentioned this today. I stressed that while the protected bike lanes, for which construction begins on Monday, will mitigate some of the bad behavior of motorists, that they are not a panacea. I also mentioned about what transpired in Ohio--big increase in cycling, but a lot of crashes on the path (though if you read the report carefully, not a many as it first appears). If I read you correctly you are really saying that bicyclists behave badly, do not comply with existing laws and regulations and (horrors) don't even display good sense and therefore special paths and byways must be constructed at the expense of the public to protect them from their own foolish actions. Whatever happened to those rugged and stalwart folks who through their efforts forged a great nation out of a wilderness? All gone? Like the dodo? -- cheers, John B. -- duane |
#98
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HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING? DEPENDS ON WHICH NUMBERS YOU EMPHASISE.
Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 8:55:35 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote: I wouldn't assign ulterior motives to people who feel very uncomfortable riding around traffic. +1. There are some roads that are objectively dangerous to ride on. We have several such going out of town. On the worst of these dangerous roads, there are trucks thundering along this narrow country road in both directions at maximum permitted speed, and a hard shoulder 12in wide at best, disappearing totally in some places. I've been on it, and it's an unpleasant ride with trucks thundering 18in max from your shoulders. You can't take the lane either, because there won't be enough space for the truck behind you to slow to your speed, and he can't pass you in the opposite lane because trucks are thundering towards him in that lane. I refused to ride on it with the police superintendent for this area, and a while later he was killed cycling on that road. Think on it: who should know the safe roads better than the police superintendent? There are some places it simply isn't smart to ride a bicycle. Morons like Krygowski screeching "Danger! Danger!" and "Take the lane!" don't help; instead they leave the impression that cyclists are a bunch of reckless idiots antisocially endangering other people's lives by their insistence on riding where the speed differential is simply too large and the traffic too heavy and the sightlines for drivers too short. In any event, cyclists always have other choices, recreational cyclists admittedly more than commuters. A bus driver spoke to me at the supermarket about a four-seasons commuter on one of his routes, a very narrow twisty road with many unsighted corners, asking me to speak to the fellow about the danger. I did, and he said, "I'm on that road because all the bus drivers and motor commuters know me and look out for me. The only alternative is the main drag to the city--" he watched me shudder "--and the road past the airport." That bit left me speechless, not a common occurrence. I've been on both the roads he rejected, and the only safe way to go on them is in huge convoys of cycles, as on for instance charity rides, with several big SUVs spaced out behind to break the speed of the normal motor traffic. On one such ride I joined, the organisers thought five ambulances necessary, and I couldn't help wondering what Franki-boy would say to them. I also heard insurance was hell to get, with some insurers simply refusing even to quote. The small country road the town's premier bicycle-commuter considers "safer", we cross and recross on many small country lane rides. At one point on an otherwise really good workout ride in pretty surroundings on smooth roads with almost zero traffic, you need to ride for a couple of hundred yards on it, and somebody never fails to have a tense moment with a car or a truck on it even in those couple of hundred yards because we enter just after a blind corner, and the cars are travelling at a speed that makes it difficult for them to slow to our speed, and there's no shoulder so perforce we're in the lane, or already in the middle of the road because we want to turn across the oncoming traffic (coming around another unsighted corner; some who're otherwise keen just won't ride with us if the route will take us onto that road. At several times of the day, even just crossing that road, what with its many blind hills and blind corners, on the country lanes that cross it, can take ten minutes before there's a break in the traffic long enough to cross. There's another ride, on an even smaller country road, but fast and wide-sweeping so that cars can see you a long way off and slow appropriately, which requires one to be on the dangerous road (the one the admirable commuter prefers to even more dangerous roads) only for about fifty yards before one of our small lanes turns off it, but we go there only on Sundays when everyone else is in church (this is a Catholic country, still) because those 50 yards lie between two black spots (a black spot is the scene of regular automobile accidents, because the road is intrinsically dangerous, and the road authorities put up warning boards with a black spot on them). It may sound like I'd better ride intervals around my orchard, but in fact the majority of miles around here are on small, safe lanes**, all of them tarmac-topped. Since we're recreational riders, we don't mind mapping routes that keep us off the six dangerous roads out of town*. It's not worth the stress of going on them. I ran into an old pedalpal with whom I'd lost contact and he reminisced about how thirty years ago we used to go on three of those six roads (the other three were already too dangerous) after dinner in the summer, returning at about midnight when it was pitch dark, with only the inadequate bicycle lamps of the period, because there was almost no traffic and what there was proceeded at a reasonable speed, about half the rate they drive at today; he went out on one of those roads in broad daylight the other day and in less than three miles experienced so many close passes of trucks and cars that he turned off the main road and continued on the lanes. He said, "I'm cycling for my heart. Man, I was praying for Baxter's Bridge to come up so I could get the **** out of that Death Rally. I don't need that stress." I understand how he feels. A favourite downhill ride of mine ends on that road only a few hundred yards from town, but rather than ride on that road, I turn around and slog back up the hill and go home the long, hard but stressless way (or at least, via my HRM, in control of the stress). The point I'm trying to make is that if you choose your routes well, the usual amount of common sense and alertness an adult should possess will keep you safe and make your rides a joy rather than a chore. There is no need to force your way in where you're not wanted by people going about their business at speeds you cannot and don't want to achieve. Andre Jute Some places "taking the lane" is a suicide note *Beside one of which a few years ago a wooden cross was planted in memory of one "John Forester". It's a road on part of which cyclists who want to live "take the ditch", which is three feet wide, only a foot deep, and paved, quite pleasant really in dry weather. Makes one wonder whether the memorial is for that John Forester. **Doesn't mean you don't need to take care; you had better: a schoolboy was killed on his bike on one of my favourite downhills when at the bottom of the hill he met an oncoming car whose driver never saw him around the curve until it was far too late. I’ll +1 your +1. -- duane |
#99
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HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING? DEPENDS ON WHICH NUMBERS YOU EMPHASISE.
On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 6:56:10 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
John B. wrote: On Sat, 18 May 2019 01:04:14 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/17/2019 4:12 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2019 08:49:37 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/16/2019 5:54 PM, John B. wrote: snip It seems likely that there are a multitude of reasons for people not commuting by bicycle ranging from "Oh! I just had my hair done", to "OH! But 3 miles is too far to go by bicycle", to "Good Lord! It's raining", to "Oh My God! My head hurts. No more booze on weekdays!", to "I don't wanna wear a Helmet!". When I was working in Jakarta I used to ride 100 km every Sunday morning but wouldn't have dreamed of commuting to work by bike. Partially because a chauffeur driven car was one of the perks of the job, partially because a white shirt and tie was more or less the standard uniform for managers in the business and one didn't want to be calling on clients looking all hot and sweaty, and partially because I spent the ride to work planning my day. While a dedicated bicyclist might argue that these are all surmountable problems the whole point is that they were sufficient, for me to decide not to ride a bike to work. Yes, in a tropical climate the "hot and sweaty" issue is a big one. In my area, the weather is mild, most larger companies have showering and changing facilities, and white shirts and ties are rare. The bigger issues around here a 1. I need to pick up children after work or attend their school activities. 2. I have to work late hours (very common in Silicon Valley because you've got a lot of conference calls late at night when it's daytime in Asia) 3. There's no safe route. 4. There's no secure bike parking. We can address 2, 3, and 4, but addressing 1 is hard. There's no helmet law for adults here, but it's rare to see any professionals riding without one. However professionals are only one segment of the cycling population. We have a lot of seniors from China living with their adult children and they ride without helmets. We have a lot of day workers that combine the bus and a bicycle. Riding without lights is actually a bigger issue around here, and I just received my first shipment of 200 rechargeable lights to give out. I suppose we could also try to fund helmets, but really it's unnecessary. You can buy a new helmet for $15, sometimes even less. The cost is not the reason some people don't wear helmets, they just are willing to accept the slight extra risk and not wear one. Taking steps to make cycling safer are more important than imposing helmet requirements. Just don't fall for the false narrative that if helmets are required then suddenly mass numbers of people will give up cycling in protest--there's never been any evidence of this happening. Making cycling safer? Is cycling safe? Or is cycling unsafe? Or is cycling only perceived as unsafe? Yes, all of the above. I ask as annually, in the U.S., approximately 750 people die while cycling and nearly that many die falling out of bed and since there seems to be no concept that going to bed is "dangerous" than it can't be a matter of simple numbers. Oh no, you're not going to start up with this nonsense are you. Taking injury and fatality numbers completely out of context is reserved for Frank. No one else is allowed to engage in this. I see. Nonsense because that ~759 bicyclists die each year? Because some 737 die from falling out of bed? Or nonsense because it doesn't agree with your highly political opinion? I suggest that the latter is the most likely truth. Maybe he’d prefer if you talked about the percentage of cyclists who died cycling compared to the percentage of people that sleep in beds who died falling out of beds. Not that I think either activity is very dangerous but this nonsense is getting boring. Various studies of bicycle "accidents" have found that from about 30% to as much as 60% (in at least one study) of the accidents are the fault of the cyclist which really does make one wonder about the mind set of the cyclists. "Hey! Just use good sense and obey the traffic laws and save your life. " I find it very strange that no one ever seems to mention this simple fact. It is free, it can save you from death, pain, or an expensive stay in the hospital, but it seems to be a fact that is kept a secret and instead we are told to "wear a helmet", or "we gotta build safer bicycle paths". Are the bicycle paths 30 to 60% safer? Reports I read seem to indicate that they are even less safe than riding on the open road. Actually I mentioned this today. I stressed that while the protected bike lanes, for which construction begins on Monday, will mitigate some of the bad behavior of motorists, that they are not a panacea. I also mentioned about what transpired in Ohio--big increase in cycling, but a lot of crashes on the path (though if you read the report carefully, not a many as it first appears). If I read you correctly you are really saying that bicyclists behave badly, do not comply with existing laws and regulations and (horrors) don't even display good sense and therefore special paths and byways must be constructed at the expense of the public to protect them from their own foolish actions. Whatever happened to those rugged and stalwart folks who through their efforts forged a great nation out of a wilderness? All gone? Like the dodo? -- cheers, John B. Uh oh, bicycles are suicide machines in the EU! Particularly where there is developed bicycle infrastructure. https://tinyurl.com/y4r935l4 NL is like the killing fields. -- Jay Beattie. |
#100
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HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING? DEPENDS ON WHICH NUMBERS YOU EMPHASISE.
On 5/19/2019 11:44 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 6:56:10 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote: John B. wrote: On Sat, 18 May 2019 01:04:14 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/17/2019 4:12 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 17 May 2019 08:49:37 -0700, sms wrote: On 5/16/2019 5:54 PM, John B. wrote: snip It seems likely that there are a multitude of reasons for people not commuting by bicycle ranging from "Oh! I just had my hair done", to "OH! But 3 miles is too far to go by bicycle", to "Good Lord! It's raining", to "Oh My God! My head hurts. No more booze on weekdays!", to "I don't wanna wear a Helmet!". When I was working in Jakarta I used to ride 100 km every Sunday morning but wouldn't have dreamed of commuting to work by bike. Partially because a chauffeur driven car was one of the perks of the job, partially because a white shirt and tie was more or less the standard uniform for managers in the business and one didn't want to be calling on clients looking all hot and sweaty, and partially because I spent the ride to work planning my day. While a dedicated bicyclist might argue that these are all surmountable problems the whole point is that they were sufficient, for me to decide not to ride a bike to work. Yes, in a tropical climate the "hot and sweaty" issue is a big one. In my area, the weather is mild, most larger companies have showering and changing facilities, and white shirts and ties are rare. The bigger issues around here a 1. I need to pick up children after work or attend their school activities. 2. I have to work late hours (very common in Silicon Valley because you've got a lot of conference calls late at night when it's daytime in Asia) 3. There's no safe route. 4. There's no secure bike parking. We can address 2, 3, and 4, but addressing 1 is hard. There's no helmet law for adults here, but it's rare to see any professionals riding without one. However professionals are only one segment of the cycling population. We have a lot of seniors from China living with their adult children and they ride without helmets. We have a lot of day workers that combine the bus and a bicycle. Riding without lights is actually a bigger issue around here, and I just received my first shipment of 200 rechargeable lights to give out. I suppose we could also try to fund helmets, but really it's unnecessary. You can buy a new helmet for $15, sometimes even less. The cost is not the reason some people don't wear helmets, they just are willing to accept the slight extra risk and not wear one. Taking steps to make cycling safer are more important than imposing helmet requirements. Just don't fall for the false narrative that if helmets are required then suddenly mass numbers of people will give up cycling in protest--there's never been any evidence of this happening. Making cycling safer? Is cycling safe? Or is cycling unsafe? Or is cycling only perceived as unsafe? Yes, all of the above. I ask as annually, in the U.S., approximately 750 people die while cycling and nearly that many die falling out of bed and since there seems to be no concept that going to bed is "dangerous" than it can't be a matter of simple numbers. Oh no, you're not going to start up with this nonsense are you. Taking injury and fatality numbers completely out of context is reserved for Frank. No one else is allowed to engage in this. I see. Nonsense because that ~759 bicyclists die each year? Because some 737 die from falling out of bed? Or nonsense because it doesn't agree with your highly political opinion? I suggest that the latter is the most likely truth. Maybe he’d prefer if you talked about the percentage of cyclists who died cycling compared to the percentage of people that sleep in beds who died falling out of beds. Not that I think either activity is very dangerous but this nonsense is getting boring. Various studies of bicycle "accidents" have found that from about 30% to as much as 60% (in at least one study) of the accidents are the fault of the cyclist which really does make one wonder about the mind set of the cyclists. "Hey! Just use good sense and obey the traffic laws and save your life. " I find it very strange that no one ever seems to mention this simple fact. It is free, it can save you from death, pain, or an expensive stay in the hospital, but it seems to be a fact that is kept a secret and instead we are told to "wear a helmet", or "we gotta build safer bicycle paths". Are the bicycle paths 30 to 60% safer? Reports I read seem to indicate that they are even less safe than riding on the open road. Actually I mentioned this today. I stressed that while the protected bike lanes, for which construction begins on Monday, will mitigate some of the bad behavior of motorists, that they are not a panacea. I also mentioned about what transpired in Ohio--big increase in cycling, but a lot of crashes on the path (though if you read the report carefully, not a many as it first appears). If I read you correctly you are really saying that bicyclists behave badly, do not comply with existing laws and regulations and (horrors) don't even display good sense and therefore special paths and byways must be constructed at the expense of the public to protect them from their own foolish actions. Whatever happened to those rugged and stalwart folks who through their efforts forged a great nation out of a wilderness? All gone? Like the dodo? -- cheers, John B. Uh oh, bicycles are suicide machines in the EU! Particularly where there is developed bicycle infrastructure. https://tinyurl.com/y4r935l4 NL is like the killing fields. The author serves a few tidbits of real knowledge in a stew of misinformation. I'd be interested in his source for "In the U.S., as in Europe, the car’s culpability is mostly a myth: just 29 per cent of bicycle fatalities involved autos." I think that's completely wrong. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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