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#1
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Threaded Headset - ISO vs. JIS 1"
My late 1970's steel frame is a Cinelli copy that was designed for a 1"
Campy threaded headset. I have always used a Shimano 600 (I've been a cheapskate for decades), which never fit right in two ways (related?). The top and bottom fixed cups can still be inserted and removed with finger pressure; seeing as how there have always been special tools for 'forcing' these into the head tube in perfect alignment I've always known that this was unusual. Is this the ISO 1" versus JIS 1" issue Dr. Brown refers to in his glossary entry for headsets? The second oddity is that the headset has always worked itself loose, particularly, of course, on bumpy roads. I installed the headset new from the box, so I know all the parts are there. My suspicion has always been that the steerer is a little too long and that the locknut doesn't lock against the adjustible cup. Would that make sense? I am now 'upgrading' the headset. Campy is still above my price point, but I'd like to avoid the fit problems I've coped with for 30 years. I'm looking at a Shimano STX cartridge headset and a Ritchey Logic headset (they don't put the threaded headsets in the consumer catalog, so I am unsure of model name/number). Any advice on getting a headset that fits after all these years? Thanks. |
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#2
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Threaded Headset - ISO vs. JIS 1"
David wrote: My late 1970's steel frame is a Cinelli copy that was designed for a 1" Campy threaded headset. I have always used a Shimano 600 (I've been a cheapskate for decades), which never fit right in two ways (related?). The top and bottom fixed cups can still be inserted and removed with finger pressure; seeing as how there have always been special tools for 'forcing' these into the head tube in perfect alignment I've always known that this was unusual. Is this the ISO 1" versus JIS 1" issue Dr. Brown refers to in his glossary entry for headsets? The second oddity is that the headset has always worked itself loose, particularly, of course, on bumpy roads. I installed the headset new from the box, so I know all the parts are there. My suspicion has always been that the steerer is a little too long and that the locknut doesn't lock against the adjustible cup. Would that make sense? I am now 'upgrading' the headset. Campy is still above my price point, but I'd like to avoid the fit problems I've coped with for 30 years. I'm looking at a Shimano STX cartridge headset and a Ritchey Logic headset (they don't put the threaded headsets in the consumer catalog, so I am unsure of model name/number). Any advice on getting a headset that fits after all these years? Thanks. I would advise you measure the crown race seat on the fork and the inside of the head tube where the bearing cups seat. And then get a headset that matches. The crown race seat should be very close to either 26.4mm, or, 27.0mm. The head tube I.D. should be close to 30.0mm or 30.2mm. ISO headsets are usually 26.4mm for the crown race and 30.2mm for the bearing cups. JIS is 27.0mm for the crown race and either 30.0mm (usually), or, 30.2mm (occasionally) for the bearing cups. If you don't want to end up cutting the steerer tube you should also measure the stack height and match it as well. There is no way you can just guess at these measurements. You really need a set of calipers to do the diameter measurements. You should certainly be able to find a decent headset in the $20-50 range that will match your bike. Bearing cups are supposed to be an interferance fit (i.e. they need to be pressed in). If they are not tight, as you have described, you should be using a retaining compound for the installation. Loctite® RC609 is appropriate for this application. Here are three good reference pages that you should take a look at: http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=127 http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=68 http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_ha-i.html#headset Any questions you have should be answered somewhere on those pages. Good luck. |
#3
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Threaded Headset - ISO vs. JIS 1"
David wrote:
My late 1970's steel frame is a Cinelli copy that was designed for a 1" Campy threaded headset. I have always used a Shimano 600 (I've been a cheapskate for decades), which never fit right in two ways (related?). The top and bottom fixed cups can still be inserted and removed with finger pressure; seeing as how there have always been special tools for 'forcing' these into the head tube in perfect alignment I've always known that this was unusual. Is this the ISO 1" versus JIS 1" issue Dr. Brown refers to in his glossary entry for headsets? Could be, or maybe the head tube has stretched. This can happen on lugless frames if there is no reinforcing ring around the top and bottom of the tube. How is yours constructed? The second oddity is that the headset has always worked itself loose, particularly, of course, on bumpy roads. I installed the headset new from the box, so I know all the parts are there. My suspicion has always been that the steerer is a little too long and that the locknut doesn't lock against the adjustible cup. Would that make sense? Possible, but it's worth having the faces checked out. Non-parallel faces cause the same kind of problem and are more common than they should be. In the worst case scenario you could have a new head tube and respray for about $250-300 (the head tube is one of the easier to replace, and you'd know you were getting ISO tubing). You'd really have to love the frame though. |
#4
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Threaded Headset - ISO vs. JIS 1"
If a headset cups fall out of the frame and can be pressed in with your
hands then something is not right. There could be any number of things going on. If your headset comes loose when you ride you might have a stack height issue, a spacer inbetween the adjustable race and the locknut. Campagnolo makes a gauge for headtubes. If there is a camp pro shop in your neck of the woods then I would suggest taking it in there. More then just size, if this frame was ridden with a loose headset for any lenght of time you may have a streched out headtube, in which case you would need more then just gluing in the headset cups. If you were to glue in cups you have no idea if the cups are aligned to each other, and then you'd have serious bearing adjustment issues. -Tim |
#5
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Threaded Headset - ISO vs. JIS 1"
Let me revise that, a spacer between the adjustable race and the
locknut would solve that problem. I think I might want to preview my posts first. lmao |
#6
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Threaded Headset - ISO vs. JIS 1"
In article , David
wrote: The second oddity is that the headset has always worked itself loose, particularly, of course, on bumpy roads. I installed the headset new from the box, so I know all the parts are there. My suspicion has always been that the steerer is a little too long and that the locknut doesn't lock against the adjustible cup. Would that make sense? No it doesn't. An excessively long steer-tube in of itself shouldn't be an issue. You can either install the locknut with spacers between it and the adjustable cup to raise the locknut (for esthetic reasons, so that it aligns with the top of the steer tube); or install the locknut sans spacers, and leave a section of the threaded steerer exposed above it; or cut of the excess length. What can be a factor when swapping out headsets is the stack height and its relation to the distance between the fork steerer's threaded section and the fork crown. This distance can be too great for headsets with little stack height; the adjustable cup may run out of thread before it can properly preload the bearings. In this case regardless of how tight the locknut is against the adjustable cup, the headset will still be loose. A solution would be extending the threads further down the steer-tube, or a second headset with a greater stack-height. Luke |
#7
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Threaded Headset - ISO vs. JIS 1"
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 19:02:29 -0500, Luke wrote:
In article , David wrote: The second oddity is that the headset has always worked itself loose, particularly, of course, on bumpy roads. I installed the headset new from the box, so I know all the parts are there. My suspicion has always been that the steerer is a little too long and that the locknut doesn't lock against the adjustible cup. Would that make sense? No it doesn't. An excessively long steer-tube in of itself shouldn't be an issue. You can either install the locknut with spacers between it and the adjustable cup to raise the locknut (for esthetic reasons, so that it aligns with the top of the steer tube); or install the locknut sans spacers, and leave a section of the threaded steerer exposed above it; or cut of the excess length. Old-style locknuts had a ridge that would indeed bottom out on the top of the steerer if it were too long. Yes, an extra washer was a simple solution, but not all of them would thread past the point where they bottom out. I had a Campy headset that had this restriction, and a Shimano one that would allow you to go past that point, but it would push out a rubber washer in doing so. -- David L. Johnson __o | What is objectionable, and what is dangerous about extremists is _`\(,_ | not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. (_)/ (_) | --Robert F. Kennedy |
#8
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Threaded Headset - ISO vs. JIS 1"
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 19:14:14 +0000, Zog The Undeniable wrote:
Could be, or maybe the head tube has stretched. This can happen on lugless frames if there is no reinforcing ring around the top and bottom of the tube. How is yours constructed? A '70s Italian frame is not likely to be lugless. I suspect, regarding the OP, that someone damaged the frame while prepping it. I don't believe the frame could be JIS, and if the headset is, then it would be larger, wouldn't it? -- David L. Johnson __o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front _`\(,_ | of enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of (_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The internet has proven this not to be the case. |
#9
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Threaded Headset - ISO vs. JIS 1"
"David" wrote in message news My late 1970's steel frame is a Cinelli copy that was designed for a 1" Campy threaded headset. I have always used a Shimano 600 (I've been a cheapskate for decades), which never fit right in two ways (related?). The top and bottom fixed cups can still be inserted and removed with finger pressure; seeing as how there have always been special tools for 'forcing' these into the head tube in perfect alignment I've always known that this was unusual. Is this the ISO 1" versus JIS 1" issue Dr. Brown refers to in his glossary entry for headsets? I am now 'upgrading' the headset. Campy is still above my price point, but I'd like to avoid the fit problems I've coped with for 30 years. I'm looking at a Shimano STX cartridge headset and a Ritchey Logic headset (they don't put the threaded headsets in the consumer catalog, so I am unsure of model name/number). Any advice on getting a headset that fits after all these years? Thanks. Your frame is ISO. The Shimano 600 headset you have is possibly JIS, especially if it was made more than 15 years ago. I have seen several old 600 headsets with JIS dimensions. If you see the stamping "30" on the headset (underside of the cups), then it is JIS. Shimano cartridge headsets are excellent. Be careful though, I have seen STX headsets in both JIS and ISO. As far as bike shop inventory goes, the ratio between ISO and JIS headsets is now about 1:1. This is despite ISO headsets fitting 20 times the number of bikes that JIS headsets ever did. What is left in most shop inventories is the pretty much worthless JIS models, and most shop employees do not know the difference. I do buy the Shimano JIS units when they are very cheap (like $10) just to get at the cartridge bearings and the threaded top parts, and then I throw away the cups. |
#10
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Threaded Headset - ISO vs. JIS 1"
In article , David L. Johnson
wrote: On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 19:02:29 -0500, Luke wrote: In article , David wrote: The second oddity is that the headset has always worked itself loose, particularly, of course, on bumpy roads. I installed the headset new from the box, so I know all the parts are there. My suspicion has always been that the steerer is a little too long and that the locknut doesn't lock against the adjustible cup. Would that make sense? No it doesn't. An excessively long steer-tube in of itself shouldn't be an issue. You can either install the locknut with spacers between it and the adjustable cup to raise the locknut (for esthetic reasons, so that it aligns with the top of the steer tube); or install the locknut sans spacers, and leave a section of the threaded steerer exposed above it; or cut of the excess length. Old-style locknuts had a ridge that would indeed bottom out on the top of the steerer if it were too long. snip You're right, I overlooked this. I retract those comments relating to this fact and apologize for any confusion: If the OP's headset is configured so, he's making perfect sense - it's me that's not! Luke |
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