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Comfort and stability of modern road bikes?
Hi Everyone,
Last year I got back in the saddle again after many years of only taking one or two rides per year. I lost a bunch of weight, improved my condition drastically, and in general feel pretty good. I have an "old-school" bike I've had since I bought it new in '87. It's a Columbus SPX steel Tommasini with mostly Campy C-Record, friction down- tube shifters, tubulars, the whole 80's thing. This bike is in fine condition and works well, and I've always enjoyed riding it. In October once it got too dangerous (ice) to ride on the road, I bought a nice new mountain bike. Full air suspension, the whole nine-yards. I rode it all winter long on the trails and dirt roads around here, and with studded tires used it on ice too when the XC skiing was crappy. I love it. Super performance and great comfort. Today was my first time out with a local club on a training ride with my old-school road bike. I took it for a little spin (20 km, 12 miles) yesterday to make sure it was ready to go. Today I rode it for about 65 km (40 miles) with the club. Condition wise I felt pretty good, but otherwise I was miserable. The bike felt very unstable and wobbly particularly when I had to reach down to shift at speed, the rough pavement vibrated my crotch and palms numb, and in general was not a lot of fun to ride. I weigh 103 kg (227 lb) and my butt hurts even though I've spent as recently as last week twice as long on my mountain bike on much rougher terrain without problems. The seat-crank-bars relation on the two bikes is virtually identical. So I've been spoiled by the comfort and convenience of my mountain bike. I've been thinking out getting a new road bike for a while. Mostly because I wanted more than 12 speeds and to ditch the down-tube shifters. But now I'm hoping a modern bike with a carbon fiber rear triangle, carbon fork, a good gel seat and maybe carbon handle bars, and a frame with relaxed angles would also make difference in the comfort department. We have REALLY rough pavement around here, so dampening vibration is the key to comfort for me. So what do people think? How much of my discomfort (due to being spoiled by a modern full-suspension mountain bike) on my old-school bike could be avoided with an equally modern road bike? Any suggestions on rough pavement solutions? Thanks! Joseph |
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#2
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Joseph Santaniello wrote:
So what do people think? How much of my discomfort (due to being spoiled by a modern full-suspension mountain bike) on my old-school bike could be avoided with an equally modern road bike? Any suggestions on rough pavement solutions? Started out on an entry level Trek mtn bike with front suspension. My road bike, a used 5 yr old aluminum frame GT Strike, rides a lot rougher but advantages are easy braking and shifting on the bars, faster acceleration, better brakes, slightly lighter frame, etc. I replaced the stock seat with a gel seat and have learned to take weight off the seat when riding over rough pavement. Having integrated brake/shifters on the drop bars made a lot of difference in my comfort level when adjusting to my first good road bike. |
#3
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"Joseph Santaniello" wrote:
Last year I got back in the saddle again after many years of only taking one or two rides per year. I lost a bunch of weight, improved my condition drastically, and in general feel pretty good. I have an "old-school" bike I've had since I bought it new in '87. It's a Columbus SPX steel Tommasini with mostly Campy C-Record, friction down- tube shifters, tubulars, the whole 80's thing. This bike is in fine condition and works well, and I've always enjoyed riding it. That's a great bike! Today was my first time out with a local club on a training ride with my old-school road bike. I took it for a little spin (20 km, 12 miles) yesterday to make sure it was ready to go. Today I rode it for about 65 km (40 miles) with the club. Condition wise I felt pretty good, but otherwise I was miserable. The bike felt very unstable and wobbly particularly when I had to reach down to shift at speed, the rough pavement vibrated my crotch and palms numb, and in general was not a lot of fun to ride. I weigh 103 kg (227 lb) and my butt hurts even though I've spent as recently as last week twice as long on my mountain bike on much rougher terrain without problems. The seat-crank-bars relation on the two bikes is virtually identical. Hmm. Something sounds wrong there. I would think the road bike would be set up much differently. In any case, it's not unusual to feel uncomfortable on the first couple of rides of the year. As far as comfort, the key thing on the road bike will be the tires. They're your shock absorbers. How much pressure do run in the tubulars? If I were you, I'd switch to clinchers and either 700x25 or 700x28 tires at about 100 psi. As for the saddle, give it a little more time. I wanted more than 12 speeds and to ditch the down-tube shifters. But now I'm hoping a modern bike with a carbon fiber rear triangle, carbon fork, a good gel seat and maybe carbon handle bars, and a frame with relaxed angles would also make difference in the comfort department. Be careful what you wish for. ;- For one thing, most "modern" road bikes have tight clearances, ultra-short chainstays, 23mm tires, longish top tubes, and low handlebars. Not what I'd call comfortable. I have a Columbus SL frame from 1984. I had originally built it up with Campy Nouvo Record 6-speed stuff (DT friction shifters, etc). A few years ago, I upgraded the entire drivetrain to 9-speed with STI shifters. Personally, I think that's the best of both world's. The shifting is now much smoother and positive (and smaller gaps), but I've still got a classic frame with a reasonable wheelbase and enough clearance for wider tires. We have REALLY rough pavement around here, so dampening vibration is the key to comfort for me. Tires, saddle and handlebar tape are what provide comfort. The double triangle road frame is extremely stiff in the vertical plane regardless of what material it's made of. So what do people think? How much of my discomfort (due to being spoiled by a modern full-suspension mountain bike) on my old-school bike could be avoided with an equally modern road bike? Any suggestions on rough pavement solutions? Wider tires at lower pressure, maybe a new saddle, maybe visit a shop for a good fit session. (Do you feel too stretched out, or that the bars are too low?) Gradually build up your mileage base and speed by riding regularly. You may find that the discomfort will disappear as you toughen up your butt, and improve your flexibility. If you've always enjoyed riding the Tommasini in the past, it probably hasn't changed, but you may have! Sure a fat tire MTB with suspension is going to give a more cushy ride than a road bike. But a road bike is much more efficient for long rides. Art Harris |
#4
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"Joseph Santaniello" wrote .... Hi Everyone, Last year I got back in the saddle again after many years of only taking one or two rides per year. I lost a bunch of weight, improved my condition drastically, and in general feel pretty good. Congratulations! Don't forget to add some strength training to your routine. It improves your general fitness, but, more importantly, it improves your bone density. Cyclists have been show to be deficient in that area. I have an "old-school" bike I've had since I bought it new in '87. It's a Columbus SPX steel Tommasini with mostly Campy C-Record, friction down- tube shifters, tubulars, the whole 80's thing. This bike is in fine condition and works well, and I've always enjoyed riding it. Nice bike. If you choose not to hold on to it, you'll get a nice price for it on eBay. In October once it got too dangerous (ice) to ride on the road, I bought a nice new mountain bike. Full air suspension, the whole nine-yards. I rode it all winter long on the trails and dirt roads around here, and with studded tires used it on ice too when the XC skiing was crappy. I love it. Super performance and great comfort. Any bike you're comfortable with is a good bike, sounds like you made a good selection. I think full suspension is unnecessary for 90% of the riding people do, but that's just me. :-) Today was my first time out with a local club on a training ride with my old-school road bike. I took it for a little spin (20 km, 12 miles) yesterday to make sure it was ready to go. Today I rode it for about 65 km (40 miles) with the club. Condition wise I felt pretty good, but otherwise I was miserable. The bike felt very unstable and wobbly particularly when I had to reach down to shift at speed, the rough pavement vibrated my crotch and palms numb, and in general was not a lot of fun to ride. I weigh 103 kg (227 lb) and my butt hurts even though I've spent as recently as last week twice as long on my mountain bike on much rougher terrain without problems. The seat-crank-bars relation on the two bikes is virtually identical. Well, you're riding a racing bike. High pressure narrow tires, and I'd wager the bars are 2-3 inches lower than the saddle. You're not a lightweight, and you are putting a lot of weight on your hands. As far as the stability, I would chalk that up to a lack of saddle time on the bike, but it IS a racing bike, and they tend to be twitchy and geared toward flyweight racers who have excellent bike control. But that's just my opinion. So I've been spoiled by the comfort and convenience of my mountain bike. I've been thinking out getting a new road bike for a while. Mostly because I wanted more than 12 speeds and to ditch the down-tube shifters. But now I'm hoping a modern bike with a carbon fiber rear triangle, carbon fork, a good gel seat and maybe carbon handle bars, and a frame with relaxed angles would also make difference in the comfort department. We have REALLY rough pavement around here, so dampening vibration is the key to comfort for me. I think you're heading in the wrong direction. Any modern "racing" style bike is going to give you the same problems, no matter how much carbon you hang on it. At your weight, you need a bike with bigger tires. Look at touring bikes. The Trek 520 is the old reliable standby, but you might need to switch out the tires it comes with (700x28) for a 700x32 or so. The bigger the tire, the lower air pressure you can run, which gives you more shock absorbing. Cannondale makes nice touring bikes, and there are Cannondale dealers all over the place. I would point you toward steel, but the choice is yours. If you're not racing, why ride a racing bike? The more comfortable you are, the more you will ride. :-) |
#5
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In Gooserider wrote:
"Joseph Santaniello" wrote .... Hi Everyone, Last year I got back in the saddle again after many years of only taking one or two rides per year. I lost a bunch of weight, improved my condition drastically, and in general feel pretty good. Congratulations! Don't forget to add some strength training to your routine. It improves your general fitness, but, more importantly, it improves your bone density. Cyclists have been show to be deficient in that area. In the old days when I was racing I avoided weight training to keep my weight down, but now that I don't really care about getting dropped on hills, I've started hitting the weights pretty hard. My overall weight has gone down, but I traded a lot of fat for muscle too. I have an "old-school" bike I've had since I bought it new in '87. It's a Columbus SPX steel Tommasini with mostly Campy C-Record, friction down- tube shifters, tubulars, the whole 80's thing. This bike is in fine condition and works well, and I've always enjoyed riding it. Nice bike. If you choose not to hold on to it, you'll get a nice price for it on eBay. It's got a cool 80's style fake marble paintjob too. I've thought of changing some components, but I just can't bring myself to do it. Ruining the whole vintage flavor would be a shame. In October once it got too dangerous (ice) to ride on the road, I bought a nice new mountain bike. Full air suspension, the whole nine- yards. I rode it all winter long on the trails and dirt roads around here, and with studded tires used it on ice too when the XC skiing was crappy. I love it. Super performance and great comfort. Any bike you're comfortable with is a good bike, sounds like you made a good selection. I think full suspension is unnecessary for 90% of the riding people do, but that's just me. :-) I was a little skeptical of full suspension too, but I figured I'd go all the way. Most of my riding is on lousy dirt roads with big potholes, and trails with roots and fallen trees. During the winter I rode quite a bit at night with a helmet mounted light and sometimes it was hard to see rocks/holes/whatever and the rear suspension saved me lot of hard knocks from barreling over things without knowing they were there. Today was my first time out with a local club on a training ride with my old-school road bike. I took it for a little spin (20 km, 12 miles) yesterday to make sure it was ready to go. Today I rode it for about 65 km (40 miles) with the club. Condition wise I felt pretty good, but otherwise I was miserable. The bike felt very unstable and wobbly particularly when I had to reach down to shift at speed, the rough pavement vibrated my crotch and palms numb, and in general was not a lot of fun to ride. I weigh 103 kg (227 lb) and my butt hurts even though I've spent as recently as last week twice as long on my mountain bike on much rougher terrain without problems. The seat- crank-bars relation on the two bikes is virtually identical. Well, you're riding a racing bike. High pressure narrow tires, and I'd wager the bars are 2-3 inches lower than the saddle. You're not a lightweight, and you are putting a lot of weight on your hands. As far as the stability, I would chalk that up to a lack of saddle time on the bike, but it IS a racing bike, and they tend to be twitchy and geared toward flyweight racers who have excellent bike control. But that's just my opinion. The bars are almost 4 inches lower (both bikes) but I'm 6'3" (193cm) with long arms (how do you spell gorilla?) so it's actually pretty moderate. In the old days I rode a Zeus track-bike around in NYC that was so tight that even with 165 cranks it had at least 2 inches of toe overlap. I remember how maneuverable that bike was. Great fun timing zigging and zagging around cars with the pedal strokes to avoid scraping the road. Ah, those were the days. I thought about the stability issue, and I think my steel Campy headset may have died. It won't let me ride no hands. Not to brag (ok a little), but I have ridden this bike 125 miles almost exclusively riding no hands once when I rode from NYC to Montauk with my arm in a cast. (Anybody stupid enough to ride a track bike around in NYC without brakes would be stupid enough to do something like that too, right? Guess how I got the cast?). Anyway, if the headset is sticking, and all the tracking and stability of the bike is coming from manually moving the bars, combined with not being used to the bike, that would explain the stability issues. So I've been spoiled by the comfort and convenience of my mountain bike. I've been thinking out getting a new road bike for a while. Mostly because I wanted more than 12 speeds and to ditch the down- tube shifters. But now I'm hoping a modern bike with a carbon fiber rear triangle, carbon fork, a good gel seat and maybe carbon handle bars, and a frame with relaxed angles would also make difference in the comfort department. We have REALLY rough pavement around here, so dampening vibration is the key to comfort for me. I think you're heading in the wrong direction. Any modern "racing" style bike is going to give you the same problems, no matter how much carbon you hang on it. At your weight, you need a bike with bigger tires. Look at touring bikes. The Trek 520 is the old reliable standby, but you might need to switch out the tires it comes with (700x28) for a 700x32 or so. The bigger the tire, the lower air pressure you can run, which gives you more shock absorbing. Cannondale makes nice touring bikes, and there are Cannondale dealers all over the place. I would point you toward steel, but the choice is yours. If you're not racing, why ride a racing bike? The more comfortable you are, the more you will ride. :-) Lower air pressure for a given cross section is one of the reasons I like tubulars. I guess your right about most modern bikes with steep angles, short stays, etc. A full custom would probably be able to address those issues, but that is more of a commitment than I can give right now. Nashbar has some old Vitus bonded aluminum frames in stock in big sizes that I might give a try. Rigidity isn't an issue for me, just absorption of road vibrations from rough pavement, so maybe one of these with a modern STI setup would do the trick. When I say rough I don't mean bumpy. The roads here have lots of gravel and stones mixed into the asphalt so it won't wear away so quickly from all the studded tires in the winter. The studs end up wearing away the soft asphalt leaving exposed rough stones and gravel. Visible cables on bikes end up looking like plucked guitar strings from the resulting vibrations. Will a modern 8 or 9 speed cassette setup fit into the dropout spacing of an old 6 speed style frame? joseph |
#6
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"Joseph Santaniello" wrote:
Nashbar has some old Vitus bonded aluminum frames in stock in big sizes that I might give a try. Rigidity isn't an issue for me, just absorption of road vibrations from rough pavement, so maybe one of these with a modern STI setup would do the trick. I've seen those in recent Nashbar catalogs and remember them from the '80s. The problem is they have 126mm dropouts, and 8/9/10 speed cassettes need 130mm. You can easily spread a steel frame, but I'd be very leary of doing that to bonded aluminum. Will a modern 8 or 9 speed cassette setup fit into the dropout spacing of an old 6 speed style frame? As above, you need to spread them from 126mm to 130mm. A good shop can "cold set" a steel frame and check the alignment for $20-25. Or you can do it yourself: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html Or you can just stick a 130mm hub in there. That won't hurt anything, but it will make installing the wheel a little more difficult everytime you get a flat. Art Harris |
#7
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"Joseph Santaniello" wrote in message ... In Gooserider In the old days when I was racing I avoided weight training to keep my weight down, but now that I don't really care about getting dropped on hills, I've started hitting the weights pretty hard. My overall weight has gone down, but I traded a lot of fat for muscle too. Good man. I lift because I want to be completely fit, but mainly because I'm short and if I only bicycled I would weigh 140 pounds, and who wants that? The bars are almost 4 inches lower (both bikes) but I'm 6'3" (193cm) with long arms (how do you spell gorilla?) so it's actually pretty moderate. Do you have room on your stem to raise it a bit? Getting weight off your hands will definitely help the numbness. I'd point you toward a longer Nitto stem, but I'd hate to add something not period correct to your rolling Italian masterpiece. :-) Lower air pressure for a given cross section is one of the reasons I like tubulars. I guess your right about most modern bikes with steep angles, short stays, etc. A full custom would probably be able to address those issues, but that is more of a commitment than I can give right now. You're going to find that the new bikes you look at will be able to fit a 700x25 tire, at best. You're still going to have to run those at pretty high pressures at your weight to protect the rim. That's one of my big complaints with bike makers today. What would it hurt to design the bikes with more clearance for bigger tires and fenders? Surely most people wouldn't be affected by the miniscule weight cost of the eyelets, and allowing for bigger tires wouldn't add weight at all. |
#8
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On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 19:25:03 GMT, Joseph Santaniello wrote:
So what do people think? How much of my discomfort (due to being spoiled by a modern full-suspension mountain bike) on my old-school bike could be avoided with an equally modern road bike? Any suggestions on rough pavement solutions? Carbon will help somewhat, but road bikes really aren't designed to give a smooth ride to very heavy people on rough surfaces. The best you could do is to fit the widest tyres you can - at least 25mm - and run them at a fairly low pressure, say 90psi, although you increase the risk of punctures (pinch flats) by doing so. It's also partly a matter of technique and good fit - your legs should be bearing most of your weight, rather than your arse, and you shouldn't be falling forwards to place much weight on your arms. Keep your elbows slightly bent and hold the bars as lightly as possible while maintaining control. When you hit really rough stuff, lift your arse right off the saddle - with a bit of practice, you can keep pedalling strongly while doing this (it's called standing). As for reaching down for your gears, not having to do this on a more modern bike certainly helps you stay in control. I'd suggest getting your fit on your current bike checked out by a friendly shop, and losing some more weight before investing in anything else, though. -- bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo |
#9
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On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 12:02:28 GMT, Gooserider wrote:
Surely most people wouldn't be affected by the miniscule weight cost of the eyelets, and allowing for bigger tires wouldn't add weight at all. Wouldn't larger, heavier brakes with wider jaws be needed? And a longer wheelbase, in some cases? ISTM that if you want a tyre fatter than 25mm, a road bike isn't suitable for you anyway. -- bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo |
#10
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On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 19:25:03 +0000, Joseph Santaniello wrote:
I have an "old-school" bike I've had since I bought it new in '87. It's a Columbus SPX steel Tommasini with mostly Campy C-Record, friction down- tube shifters, tubulars, the whole 80's thing. This bike is in fine condition and works well, and I've always enjoyed riding it. In October once it got too dangerous (ice) to ride on the road, I bought a nice new mountain bike. Full air suspension, the whole nine-yards. I rode it all winter long on the trails and dirt roads around here, and with studded tires used it on ice too when the XC skiing was crappy. I love it. Super performance and great comfort. Today was my first time out with a local club on a training ride with my old-school road bike. I took it for a little spin (20 km, 12 miles) yesterday to make sure it was ready to go. Today I rode it for about 65 km (40 miles) with the club. Condition wise I felt pretty good, but otherwise I was miserable. You won't get a noticeable difference in comfort from a new frame that you can't get from this one. If you like the bike, stick with it, and you will get over your addiction to the double-boingy. If you still want to improve your comfort, get wider tires. Used to be, you could get nice wide tubulars, but that is a faint hope these days. Consider converting to clinchers, or get a clincher set to ease you off the suspension habit. Your old-school frame should have enough clearance for wider tires. Getting an aluminum frame will definitely not feel more comfortable. The comfort of carbon is IMO overrated. What you got is basically as good as it gets. Do not get the gel saddle. Terrible idea. -- David L. Johnson __o | Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig... You _`\(,_ | soon find out the pig likes it! (_)/ (_) | |
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