Serotta Legend TI w/ pivoting seat stays?

"Bret Wade" wrote in message
om...
Chalo wrote:



My professional opinion as a machine designer is that you don't put
rolling element bearings in a place where there is no rotation.
Repeated loads applied to a bearing without rotation to replenish the
lubricant inevitably result in severe wear known as "false
brinelling".

The bearings will fail because they do not turn; play will develop in
the affected joint. That design in principle may as well be a bolted
joint with the bolt left slightly loose.

I don't believe there are rolling element bearings in the ST rear of the
Serottas

"Dave Thompson" wrote:

I don't believe there are rolling element bearings in the ST rear of the
Serottas

From http://serotta.com/pages/details.html :

"3D XL Micro Pivot dropouts are found on DKS and ST models. The sealed
bearing pivots allow for just enough movement to result in road
hugging active suspension."

It's hogwash, but I assumed that they weren't lying about the sealed
bearing part.

Chalo Colina

"Chalo" wrote in message
om...
"Dave Thompson" wrote:

I don't believe there are rolling element bearings in the ST rear of the
Serottas

From http://serotta.com/pages/details.html :

"3D XL Micro Pivot dropouts are found on DKS and ST models. The sealed
bearing pivots allow for just enough movement to result in road
hugging active suspension."

It's hogwash, but I assumed that they weren't lying about the sealed
bearing part.

Chalo Colina

There ain't no rolling element bearings in my Hors Categorie (DKS rear end)

On 17 Jul 2003 18:35:29 -0700, (Chalo) may
have said:

"Dave Thompson" wrote:

I don't believe there are rolling element bearings in the ST rear of the
Serottas

From http://serotta.com/pages/details.html :

"3D XL Micro Pivot dropouts are found on DKS and ST models. The sealed
bearing pivots allow for just enough movement to result in road
hugging active suspension."

It's hogwash, but I assumed that they weren't lying about the sealed
bearing part.

I think it might be more accurate to state that they are exaggerating
the value of their feature. Whether the part about the movement is
all the way off into the realm of intentional falsehood depends upon
whether they believe their own representations.

--
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pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

The VW rabbit is an incredibly fun car to drive, and its the only car I
really miss driving. What a weird thing for you to write. So many people
love, restore, and collect them. They still make them in south africa, thats
a 30 year lifespan.

true, stay away from version 1.0 of any product, but the rabbit is a gem.

man..

"Werehatrack" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:18:35 -0700, "Dave Thompson"
may have said:
Who else is better to comment on the
validity of something, other than the people who have researched and
purchased a product? I could state, with equal ease, that you're the
sucker
for NOT buying it if the product works like it's supposed to.

Historically, this proposition is not well supported.

By way of stunning example, in the mid-1970s, the VW Rabbit
consistently got high marks from owners on *subjective* evaluations,
but when people took a dispassionate look at the real numbers relating
to repairs and other issues, an entirely different picture emerged.
Frankly, the cars were crap. Eventually, they became involved in
numerous recalls; fuse panels, rotting floorboards and brake lines,
monstrous oil consumption due to faulty valve stem seals, and
eventually it was found that the body's inherent flex was producing
fractures in major structural components that could not be prevented
by mere fixes.

For its day, the VW Rabbit was on the bleeding edge of mass production
tech...but meanwhile, across a very long continent and a little water,
a much more patient and methodical bunch of carmakers were rapidly
going through many designs looking for the ones that worked. As a
result, where VW had dominated the '60s and early '70s by virtue of
its popular, old-tech (highly repairable) vehicle, when the reality of
its front-engine vehicles became apparent, savvy car buyers began
staying away in droves despite the fact that the cars *continued* to
get rave reviews from various places.

So, no, the purchasers of *new* products are not the most reliable
source of real-world information. For that, I'd talk to the people
who traffic in *used* items, because they have to deal with what is
left when the patina of newness is rubbed off and all that is left is
the genuine merit to judge the item by.

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

"Chalo" wrote in message
om...
"Dave Thompson" wrote:

I don't believe there are rolling element bearings in the ST rear of the
Serottas

From http://serotta.com/pages/details.html :

"3D XL Micro Pivot dropouts are found on DKS and ST models. The sealed
bearing pivots allow for just enough movement to result in road
hugging active suspension."

It's hogwash, but I assumed that they weren't lying about the sealed
bearing part.

Chalo Colina

FYI, according to Dave Kirk, who invented the DKS/ST rear suspension system
while he worked at Serotta, the bearing in the pivot is an "oil-lite bronze
plain bearing", with sealing washers used as seals. Hence the "sealed
bearing". NOT a rolling element bearing as you asserted.

I would politely suggest that you offer your opinions as just that,
opinions, not as a statement of fact.

"Dave Thompson" wrote:

FYI, according to Dave Kirk, who invented the DKS/ST rear suspension system
while he worked at Serotta, the bearing in the pivot is an "oil-lite bronze
plain bearing", with sealing washers used as seals. Hence the "sealed
bearing". NOT a rolling element bearing as you asserted.

In conventional bike tech parlance that is known not as a "sealed
bearing" (which implies 'double sealed deep groove radial contact
cartridge ball bearing' unless otherwise indicated), but as a bushing.

It's probably more reliable in this application than a sealed bearing.
It wouldn't hurt to call it what it is, less marketable though it may
be.

It appears that adding an Oilite bushing was Serotta's/Kirk's way of
putting some sassy red lipstick on a bolted dropout joint. Whoopee.

Chalo Colina

A true gem. I owned an 84 GTI through 1994. In that time I:
-lost the headlights while driving down a backroad after midnight.
The headlight dimmer switch overheated in High Beam mode, as I quickly
discovered that I could still use the low beams, thankfully.
-had my clutch/brake assembly fall out from under the dashboard.
The spot welds they used had failed
-had my headlight on/off switch burn up in a puff of smoke.
-replaced the exhaust system every 16 months
-........
Most of these fails were in the first 4 years of it's life. I once
wrote down for a friend all the failures this car suffered. It almost
filled a regular sheet of 8.5x11 paper on both sides. Compare that to
my Honda's where that same list would be zero or one line.

It was a fun car to drive - and actually made a pretty good second car -
but what a POS!

MOO,
Matt

ari wrote:

The VW rabbit is an incredibly fun car to drive, and its the only car I
really miss driving. What a weird thing for you to write. So many people
love, restore, and collect them. They still make them in south africa, thats
a 30 year lifespan.

true, stay away from version 1.0 of any product, but the rabbit is a gem.

man..

"Werehatrack" wrote in message
.. .


On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:18:35 -0700, "Dave Thompson"
may have said:


Who else is better to comment on the
validity of something, other than the people who have researched and
purchased a product? I could state, with equal ease, that you're the


sucker


for NOT buying it if the product works like it's supposed to.


Historically, this proposition is not well supported.

By way of stunning example, in the mid-1970s, the VW Rabbit
consistently got high marks from owners on *subjective* evaluations,
but when people took a dispassionate look at the real numbers relating
to repairs and other issues, an entirely different picture emerged.
Frankly, the cars were crap. Eventually, they became involved in
numerous recalls; fuse panels, rotting floorboards and brake lines,
monstrous oil consumption due to faulty valve stem seals, and
eventually it was found that the body's inherent flex was producing
fractures in major structural components that could not be prevented
by mere fixes.

For its day, the VW Rabbit was on the bleeding edge of mass production
tech...but meanwhile, across a very long continent and a little water,
a much more patient and methodical bunch of carmakers were rapidly
going through many designs looking for the ones that worked. As a
result, where VW had dominated the '60s and early '70s by virtue of
its popular, old-tech (highly repairable) vehicle, when the reality of
its front-engine vehicles became apparent, savvy car buyers began
staying away in droves despite the fact that the cars *continued* to
get rave reviews from various places.

So, no, the purchasers of *new* products are not the most reliable
source of real-world information. For that, I'd talk to the people
who traffic in *used* items, because they have to deal with what is
left when the patina of newness is rubbed off and all that is left is
the genuine merit to judge the item by.

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

Bret- Yes, we're working with Wheatridge on this. BRBR

Good choice, Ron is a good guy..

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Chalo" wrote in message
om...
"Dave Thompson" wrote:

FYI, according to Dave Kirk, who invented the DKS/ST rear suspension
system
while he worked at Serotta, the bearing in the pivot is an "oil-lite
bronze
plain bearing", with sealing washers used as seals. Hence the "sealed
bearing". NOT a rolling element bearing as you asserted.

In conventional bike tech parlance that is known not as a "sealed
bearing" (which implies 'double sealed deep groove radial contact
cartridge ball bearing' unless otherwise indicated), but as a bushing.

It's probably more reliable in this application than a sealed bearing.
It wouldn't hurt to call it what it is, less marketable though it may
be.

It appears that adding an Oilite bushing was Serotta's/Kirk's way of
putting some sassy red lipstick on a bolted dropout joint. Whoopee.

Chalo Colina

How little you really know.............people far better than you, or I,
really like their Serottas with the rear suspension feature.