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Jobst
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 6:28:35 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
First, nobody has denied that some Canadians come to the U.S. for some procedures I don't believe that we need go any further since you wanted your citations, you got your citation and then deny them. |
#43
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Jobst
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 6:41:42 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
That may have been true many years ago but is no longer true today. (and all you had to do is look) See: http://www.whatclinic.com/dentists/t...dental-x-rayst or http://www.bangkokdentalcenter.com/t...logy-xray.html or https://www.samitivejhospitals.com/e...dental-clinic/ or https://www.gracedentalclinic.com/technology-eng.html Note: the first site quotes a price for panoramic x-rays, in English aimed at foreigners, as US$1,000. The Thai price is traditionally about 50% I might add that Thailand seems to be quite well known for cosmetic surgery. It is said that one can fly from America, stay in a posh hotel, have the operation(s) and fly home cheaper then the surgery costs alone in the U.S. I have also read that Thailand is far and away the most experienced in penis re-attachments. See: http://www.glorysurgery.com/surgery-...nis-video-240/ http://tinyurl.com/yc6tgqk2 Or even http://tinyurl.com/yc6tgqk2 John - remember that I developed medical instruments for years. Your invention of advanced medical treatment because one of the instruments I mentioned is available at one clinic is reaching so far that you aren't even on the same Earth. |
#44
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Jobst
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:03:45 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote: What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine? You quite obviously don't know what you are talking about as (1) a doctor in government service in Thailand make a very comfortable living and (2) those that work in private hospitals make a fortune and (3) a great many doctors that work in government hospitals have private clinics which they open in the evenings. No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing. In the past many doctors in Thailand were trained in England or the U.S. and if a specialist were usually "board certified" in the country that they trained in. Now: There are 22 medical schools located in the country, and the majority of them are public and state-funded. The first medical school in Thailand was founded in the late 1880s at the Siriraj Hospital, a teaching hospital that remains one of the most highly reputable medical schools in the region. Once again you demonstrate that you're not even in the same universe. And American neurologist makes around $6,000 for a 15 minute consultation. In a few hours he can buy a new car. After taxes. Tell us about this great wage Thai doctors make under socialized medicine. |
#45
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Jobst
On 9/2/2017 9:09 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/1/2017 8:45 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: Some people can't seem to grasp the fundamental idea of insurance. Everyone accepts a small penalty (the premiums they pay) in order to prevent having to endure a large penalty - i.e. catastrophic personal expenses, in this case, medical expenses. The insurance company is betting you're going to remain pretty healthy. You're betting you're going to get terribly sick. You bet against the insurance company, and you hope the insurance company wins. People like Tom who don't like the system have an alternative: Just don't buy any insurance. If necessary, move to some country with nothing like Medicare. Just pile up your own money in savings, and bet on your own health. Bet that you'll never need a $100,000 medical treatment to save your life. I'm sure it can work, because the insurance companies have bet on your health, and they've been winning big! They've collected enough money to build really impressive skyscrapers for their headquarters. And hey, for most of my life I never bought comprehensive insurance even on brand new cars. I won that bet, too! You're describing a classic insurance model which no longer exists. In principle, the ancient fire companies collected from building owners who then displayed the fire badge on the edifice. No badge, no water. Good system! Good system unless you had the badge in Chicago in 1871, and the six houses surrounding yours had no badge. Population immunity is very useful in preventing epidemics or conflagrations. In reality it's now more like Federal flood insurance... Since I'm totally free of any flooding possibility, I don't have much interest in flood insurance. However, I know that almost any administrative system suffers complication, inefficiency and incompetence when it gets large enough. Which brings us back to a regulated health insurance cabal. I don't have a simple answer because the various interests are convoluted, entrenched and too often crooked. As they are with many other large administrative systems. However: I don't think we should ignore the fact that all westernized nations face similar problems and decisions regarding health care. And we should not ignore the fact that (almost?) all of them have done a better job than the U.S. when making those decisions and solving those problems. The data is very clear. Yet we have fundamentalists like Tom ignoring tons of data on overall results, and instead cherry-picking anecdotes and special cases. It's kind of like the last fans of the "ordinaries" or high-wheel bicycles. "But real men don't need to stop quickly! And chains cause friction! Nothing can be more efficient than direct drive!" -- - Frank Krygowski |
#46
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Jobst
On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 6:09:05 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/1/2017 8:45 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 9/1/2017 8:14 PM, jbeattie wrote: You have a Medicare Advantage plan which, by the way, is much like the insurance scheme for everyone in Germany and (sort of) Japan. The bulk of premium is paid by the government with a "spread" paid by the policy holder. The typical Advantage plan in Oregon has better benefits than most employer-provided group plans. It also sweeps in Coverage D and provides a good pharmacy benefit. But its socialized insurance. The employed and self-employed (me) are paying the lion's share of your "premium." See http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brief...ow-it-financed The way Medicare Advantage works is that CMS pays a capitated fee to the HMO/PPO based on a "benchmark" for your county, and your HMO/PPO charges you the spread to cover the cost of estimated plan benefits (so called "bid"). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_Advantage The benchmark number varies, but yours is probably in the $800-900 range -- meaning your "true" premium is subsidized to the tune of $800-900 per month. That's socialized insurance. YOU ARE A COMMUNIST, COMRADE! Time to turn in your teabag. Why should I pay for YOUR insurance? I'm going to quit paying my self-employment tax so I don't have to pay for YOUR insurance! Some people can't seem to grasp the fundamental idea of insurance. Everyone accepts a small penalty (the premiums they pay) in order to prevent having to endure a large penalty - i.e. catastrophic personal expenses, in this case, medical expenses. The insurance company is betting you're going to remain pretty healthy. You're betting you're going to get terribly sick. You bet against the insurance company, and you hope the insurance company wins. People like Tom who don't like the system have an alternative: Just don't buy any insurance. If necessary, move to some country with nothing like Medicare. Just pile up your own money in savings, and bet on your own health. Bet that you'll never need a $100,000 medical treatment to save your life. I'm sure it can work, because the insurance companies have bet on your health, and they've been winning big! They've collected enough money to build really impressive skyscrapers for their headquarters. And hey, for most of my life I never bought comprehensive insurance even on brand new cars. I won that bet, too! You're describing a classic insurance model which no longer exists. In principle, the ancient fire companies collected from building owners who then displayed the fire badge on the edifice. No badge, no water. Good system! In reality it's now more like Federal flood insurance which has premiums people bitch about, limits which keep most businesses and many homes well below actual losses, no private insurance available, ridiculous administrative costs and of course it loses a few billion dollars every year. Seeing the utterly indefensible screwups in that program, Florida under a previous idiot governor duplicated it for the state. Having made fish soup from an aquarium, no one knows how to get out of this but the premiums are too low, the costs are too high, the reserves are inadequate for a normal hurricane season (which we haven't had in 8~9 years)and of course normal weather events with normal losses will return. The State of Florida and its citizens are directly and fully liable. Ouch. Which brings us back to a regulated health insurance cabal. I don't have a simple answer because the various interests are convoluted, entrenched and too often crooked. This is of course utterly unrelated to health or medical services in the same way that education budgets are unrelated to education[1]. The system feeds itself; you are the product! [1] The Last Honest Man, Art Shanker of AFT often ended press conferences with his famous quip, "When students pay union dues I will care about students." -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Unfortunately you cannot convince a socialist that they ought to pay their own way and then know what they are getting. Instead we end up with Frank telling us that a few Canadians come to American hospitals simply because they want faster service and John telling us that Thailand doctors make a great living. |
#47
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Jobst
On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 6:16:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/1/2017 9:30 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:39:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: Are you telling me that a Thai can go to a clinic and have a $500,000 panoramic x-ray taken of his jaw? How many of these clinics are there? How many doctors trained in doing a sinus lift that requires donated bone material to achieve? That requires three different medications before and afterwards top stave off infections? Yup. Anything that the doctor orders. Specifically a panoramic x-ray I do not know but if the government hospitals have the device then yes. free. You don't seem to be following me John. The numbers and costs of spectacular medical instruments in the USA is staggering. And these will often be in a private doctor's office. These are not available in Thailand any more than they are in European villages or even in Great Britain outside of the major cities. The weakness of socialized medicine is that it cannot afford the advancements. Hmmm. Seems like Thailand has a thriving MRI medical tourism business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-nt4-tavqXU MRI units are more common in Japan than the US. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ts-by-country/ Note that Japan has "socialized insurance" and the cost of medical care is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health...ystem_in_Japan Panoramic x-ray machines are mundane. You can buy on on the internet.. Get a cheap one for home: https://www.dentalplanet.com/x-ray-e...CABEgLdvPD_BwE Amazingly, people in other countries -- almost all of which have socialized medicine and/or socialized insurance with highly regulated medicine -- live long and useful lives. https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr.../#7a03c90e576f http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ.../mirror-mirror We're dead last compared to a dozen commie-socialist countries. Jay - does looking at the seating capacity of the waiting area for that MRI clinic not ring a very loud bell? And exactly what do you think that MRI's do? They were developed to display interior muscle composition and they really aren't very effective without contrast material injected into the proper area. There are two and a half times as many doctors per 100,000 people in the US as in Japan. Three times what Great Britain has. Twenty times the doctors per 100,000 in Thailand. What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine? No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing. Life expectancy in the world's nations seems to be the highest in Japan with a (combined male/female) life expectancy of 83.7 years. Switzerland is next with 83.4 years, then Singapore with 83.1. The U.K. is #20 with 81.2 years and the U.S. is #31 with 79.3, which is between Costa Rica with 70.6 and Cuba with 79.1. Life expectancy at birth (2015) looks even bleaker: Hong Kong #1 with 83.74 years, than Japan with 83.31, and Italy with 82.84 while the U.S. is #43 with 78.88. Tell us more about the competent doctors. We USAians drive more (miles/hours per year), drive faster, do more drugs with or without alcohol and engage in other oft-fatal behaviors more than many populations. We lose roughly 20,000 more people to ODs than to car wrecks the last few years. Oh, you want to bring in health care? We also kill more people in hospital-acquired infection than car wrecks, too. Not 'infection' but _hospital acquired_ infection. They're pros! And we wouldn't have it any other way! Absolutely every hospital everywhere is a den of infection. To pretend that there isn't a strong chance of getting a hospital acquired infection quite easily is dreaming. This is why they are pumping everyone full of antibiotics all the time. |
#48
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Jobst
On 9/2/2017 9:47 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 6:16:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 9/1/2017 9:30 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:39:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: Are you telling me that a Thai can go to a clinic and have a $500,000 panoramic x-ray taken of his jaw? How many of these clinics are there? How many doctors trained in doing a sinus lift that requires donated bone material to achieve? That requires three different medications before and afterwards top stave off infections? Yup. Anything that the doctor orders. Specifically a panoramic x-ray I do not know but if the government hospitals have the device then yes. free. You don't seem to be following me John. The numbers and costs of spectacular medical instruments in the USA is staggering. And these will often be in a private doctor's office. These are not available in Thailand any more than they are in European villages or even in Great Britain outside of the major cities. The weakness of socialized medicine is that it cannot afford the advancements. Hmmm. Seems like Thailand has a thriving MRI medical tourism business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-nt4-tavqXU MRI units are more common in Japan than the US. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ts-by-country/ Note that Japan has "socialized insurance" and the cost of medical care is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health...ystem_in_Japan Panoramic x-ray machines are mundane. You can buy on on the internet. Get a cheap one for home: https://www.dentalplanet.com/x-ray-e...CABEgLdvPD_BwE Amazingly, people in other countries -- almost all of which have socialized medicine and/or socialized insurance with highly regulated medicine -- live long and useful lives. https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr.../#7a03c90e576f http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ.../mirror-mirror We're dead last compared to a dozen commie-socialist countries. Jay - does looking at the seating capacity of the waiting area for that MRI clinic not ring a very loud bell? And exactly what do you think that MRI's do? They were developed to display interior muscle composition and they really aren't very effective without contrast material injected into the proper area. There are two and a half times as many doctors per 100,000 people in the US as in Japan. Three times what Great Britain has. Twenty times the doctors per 100,000 in Thailand. What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine? No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing. Life expectancy in the world's nations seems to be the highest in Japan with a (combined male/female) life expectancy of 83.7 years. Switzerland is next with 83.4 years, then Singapore with 83.1. The U.K. is #20 with 81.2 years and the U.S. is #31 with 79.3, which is between Costa Rica with 70.6 and Cuba with 79.1. Life expectancy at birth (2015) looks even bleaker: Hong Kong #1 with 83.74 years, than Japan with 83.31, and Italy with 82.84 while the U.S. is #43 with 78.88. Tell us more about the competent doctors. We USAians drive more (miles/hours per year), drive faster, do more drugs with or without alcohol and engage in other oft-fatal behaviors more than many populations. We lose roughly 20,000 more people to ODs than to car wrecks the last few years. Oh, you want to bring in health care? We also kill more people in hospital-acquired infection than car wrecks, too. Not 'infection' but _hospital acquired_ infection. They're pros! And we wouldn't have it any other way! Absolutely every hospital everywhere is a den of infection. To pretend that there isn't a strong chance of getting a hospital acquired infection quite easily is dreaming. This is why they are pumping everyone full of antibiotics all the time. Oh, hospital-acquired infection is roughly 2 million people per year in USA. It's the 90,00 actual deaths which raise one's eyebrow. At any rate, lower overall age at death does not necessarily indicate an insurance problem because the populations and their behaviors are not controlled for huge variables. One might actually posit that the screwy insurance system ("I paid something, so we're going to the ER for every sniffle and scrape" even though services dwarf premiums) increases the problem. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#49
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Jobst
On 9/2/2017 10:47 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 6:16:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 9/1/2017 9:30 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:39:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: Are you telling me that a Thai can go to a clinic and have a $500,000 panoramic x-ray taken of his jaw? How many of these clinics are there? How many doctors trained in doing a sinus lift that requires donated bone material to achieve? That requires three different medications before and afterwards top stave off infections? Yup. Anything that the doctor orders. Specifically a panoramic x-ray I do not know but if the government hospitals have the device then yes. free. You don't seem to be following me John. The numbers and costs of spectacular medical instruments in the USA is staggering. And these will often be in a private doctor's office. These are not available in Thailand any more than they are in European villages or even in Great Britain outside of the major cities. The weakness of socialized medicine is that it cannot afford the advancements. Hmmm. Seems like Thailand has a thriving MRI medical tourism business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-nt4-tavqXU MRI units are more common in Japan than the US. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ts-by-country/ Note that Japan has "socialized insurance" and the cost of medical care is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health...ystem_in_Japan Panoramic x-ray machines are mundane. You can buy on on the internet. Get a cheap one for home: https://www.dentalplanet.com/x-ray-e...CABEgLdvPD_BwE Amazingly, people in other countries -- almost all of which have socialized medicine and/or socialized insurance with highly regulated medicine -- live long and useful lives. https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr.../#7a03c90e576f http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ.../mirror-mirror We're dead last compared to a dozen commie-socialist countries. Jay - does looking at the seating capacity of the waiting area for that MRI clinic not ring a very loud bell? And exactly what do you think that MRI's do? They were developed to display interior muscle composition and they really aren't very effective without contrast material injected into the proper area. There are two and a half times as many doctors per 100,000 people in the US as in Japan. Three times what Great Britain has. Twenty times the doctors per 100,000 in Thailand. What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine? No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing. Life expectancy in the world's nations seems to be the highest in Japan with a (combined male/female) life expectancy of 83.7 years. Switzerland is next with 83.4 years, then Singapore with 83.1. The U.K. is #20 with 81.2 years and the U.S. is #31 with 79.3, which is between Costa Rica with 70.6 and Cuba with 79.1. Life expectancy at birth (2015) looks even bleaker: Hong Kong #1 with 83.74 years, than Japan with 83.31, and Italy with 82.84 while the U.S. is #43 with 78.88. Tell us more about the competent doctors. We USAians drive more (miles/hours per year), drive faster, do more drugs with or without alcohol and engage in other oft-fatal behaviors more than many populations. We lose roughly 20,000 more people to ODs than to car wrecks the last few years. Oh, you want to bring in health care? We also kill more people in hospital-acquired infection than car wrecks, too. Not 'infection' but _hospital acquired_ infection. They're pros! And we wouldn't have it any other way! Absolutely every hospital everywhere is a den of infection. To pretend that there isn't a strong chance of getting a hospital acquired infection quite easily is dreaming. This is why they are pumping everyone full of antibiotics all the time. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carol-...b_5266944.html -- - Frank Krygowski |
#50
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Jobst
On 9/2/2017 10:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/2/2017 10:47 AM, wrote: On Saturday, September 2, 2017 at 6:16:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote: On 9/1/2017 9:30 PM, John B. wrote: On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:10:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 9:13:45 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 7:15:19 AM UTC-7, wrote: On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 7:39:26 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote: Are you telling me that a Thai can go to a clinic and have a $500,000 panoramic x-ray taken of his jaw? How many of these clinics are there? How many doctors trained in doing a sinus lift that requires donated bone material to achieve? That requires three different medications before and afterwards top stave off infections? Yup. Anything that the doctor orders. Specifically a panoramic x-ray I do not know but if the government hospitals have the device then yes. free. You don't seem to be following me John. The numbers and costs of spectacular medical instruments in the USA is staggering. And these will often be in a private doctor's office. These are not available in Thailand any more than they are in European villages or even in Great Britain outside of the major cities. The weakness of socialized medicine is that it cannot afford the advancements. Hmmm. Seems like Thailand has a thriving MRI medical tourism business. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-nt4-tavqXU MRI units are more common in Japan than the US. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ts-by-country/ Note that Japan has "socialized insurance" and the cost of medical care is regulated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health...ystem_in_Japan Panoramic x-ray machines are mundane. You can buy on on the internet. Get a cheap one for home: https://www.dentalplanet.com/x-ray-e...CABEgLdvPD_BwE Amazingly, people in other countries -- almost all of which have socialized medicine and/or socialized insurance with highly regulated medicine -- live long and useful lives. https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr.../#7a03c90e576f http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ.../mirror-mirror We're dead last compared to a dozen commie-socialist countries. Jay - does looking at the seating capacity of the waiting area for that MRI clinic not ring a very loud bell? And exactly what do you think that MRI's do? They were developed to display interior muscle composition and they really aren't very effective without contrast material injected into the proper area. There are two and a half times as many doctors per 100,000 people in the US as in Japan. Three times what Great Britain has. Twenty times the doctors per 100,000 in Thailand. What in God's name makes you think that people go through years and years of training to make almost nothing under socialized medicine? No matter HOW cheap it is, if you cannot find a competent doctor to treat you you have nothing. Life expectancy in the world's nations seems to be the highest in Japan with a (combined male/female) life expectancy of 83.7 years. Switzerland is next with 83.4 years, then Singapore with 83.1. The U.K. is #20 with 81.2 years and the U.S. is #31 with 79.3, which is between Costa Rica with 70.6 and Cuba with 79.1. Life expectancy at birth (2015) looks even bleaker: Hong Kong #1 with 83.74 years, than Japan with 83.31, and Italy with 82.84 while the U.S. is #43 with 78.88. Tell us more about the competent doctors. We USAians drive more (miles/hours per year), drive faster, do more drugs with or without alcohol and engage in other oft-fatal behaviors more than many populations. We lose roughly 20,000 more people to ODs than to car wrecks the last few years. Oh, you want to bring in health care? We also kill more people in hospital-acquired infection than car wrecks, too. Not 'infection' but _hospital acquired_ infection. They're pros! And we wouldn't have it any other way! Absolutely every hospital everywhere is a den of infection. To pretend that there isn't a strong chance of getting a hospital acquired infection quite easily is dreaming. This is why they are pumping everyone full of antibiotics all the time. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carol-...b_5266944.html OK, there's that. But roughly 90,000 people went into a hospital last year and were killed there by hospital acquired infection. Unlike Black Helicopters, that cannot be mitigated by a tinfoil hat. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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