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  #1  
Old June 21st 04, 03:44 PM
Doki
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Does anyone make a FWD / rear steer recumbent? Seems to me you'd save a lot
of chain length. Perhaps they'd struggle for grip up hills?


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  #2  
Old June 21st 04, 03:56 PM
Peter Clinch
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Doki wrote:
Does anyone make a FWD / rear steer recumbent?


FWD, certainly. Zox and Flevo are the obvious examples, plus the Very
Serious Speed machinery used at the likes of Battle Mountain is
sometimes FWD (well, it's not like they have to go round hairpin bends...).

Rear steer is a different matter. I think it was in C+ that someone
asked this and Mike Burrows answered it. IIRC he basically said that
what's fine in theory doesn't work quite so well in practice and rear
steer bikes tend to be patronised by people called Koko with large red
noses...

The Flevo is an interesting exception to the usual rules: it doesn't
steer at either wheel but has a hinge in the middle of the bike, and can
be ridden completely no hands as far as steering goes (though bars are
provided to mount brake and gear levers)

Seems to me you'd save a lot
of chain length. Perhaps they'd struggle for grip up hills?


I believe that is an issue with some, though not bad enough to render
the concept useless. I think it's combining the steering with the drive
that causes more headaches.

OTOH, long chains aren't as bad as you might think: less wear when used
on derailleurs, for example, as the angles aren't so bad as you move
across the cassette.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  #3  
Old June 21st 04, 04:03 PM
David Martin
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On 21/6/04 3:56 pm, in article , "Peter Clinch"
wrote:

Rear steer is a different matter. I think it was in C+ that someone
asked this and Mike Burrows answered it. IIRC he basically said that
what's fine in theory doesn't work quite so well in practice and rear
steer bikes tend to be patronised by people called Koko with large red
noses...


I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear steer
trolley is like. There is only one word I can think of to desribe the
thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and that is SCARY
(followed by lots of road rash and a stay in hospital).

There is a reason the back wheels follow the front and that is stability.
Rear steering involves the back going it's own way. Interesting...

...d

  #4  
Old June 21st 04, 04:34 PM
Just zis Guy, you know?
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David Martin wrote:

I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear
steer trolley is like. There is only one word I can think of to
desribe the thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and
that is SCARY (followed by lots of road rash and a stay in hospital).


ISTR that Thrust SSC was rear-steer.

--
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk


  #6  
Old June 21st 04, 05:43 PM
Doki
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David Martin wrote:
On 21/6/04 3:56 pm, in article , "Peter
Clinch" wrote:

Rear steer is a different matter. I think it was in C+ that someone
asked this and Mike Burrows answered it. IIRC he basically said that
what's fine in theory doesn't work quite so well in practice and rear
steer bikes tend to be patronised by people called Koko with large
red noses...


I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear
steer trolley is like.


Just a case of practice, IME of pushing trolleys with the steering wheels at
the back.

There is only one word I can think of to
desribe the thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and
that is SCARY (followed by lots of road rash and a stay in hospital).

There is a reason the back wheels follow the front and that is
stability. Rear steering involves the back going it's own way.
Interesting...


It wouldn't be difficult to castor the rear wheels so that they return to
straight ahead of their own accord. The opposite occurs in a car when you
reverse, so it gives you the impression that rear steer is much more
unstable than it has to be.


  #7  
Old June 21st 04, 05:43 PM
Paul - xxx
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Just zis Guy, you know? typed:
David Martin wrote:

I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear
steer trolley is like. There is only one word I can think of to
desribe the thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and
that is SCARY (followed by lots of road rash and a stay in hospital).


ISTR that Thrust SSC was rear-steer.


But Thrust doesn't have 'steering' as such, it's really just an aid to
staying in a straight line at st00pid speeds ...

--
Paul ...

(8(|) ... Homer Rocks


  #8  
Old June 21st 04, 05:59 PM
Mark South
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"Doki" wrote in message
...

David Martin wrote:
On 21/6/04 3:56 pm, in article , "Peter
Clinch" wrote:

Rear steer is a different matter. I think it was in C+ that someone
asked this and Mike Burrows answered it. IIRC he basically said that
what's fine in theory doesn't work quite so well in practice and rear
steer bikes tend to be patronised by people called Koko with large
red noses...


I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear
steer trolley is like.


Just a case of practice, IME of pushing trolleys with the steering wheels at
the back.


Do you actually know of any documented case of someone being able to ride a
rear-steered bicycle?

All the experiments I have read of have concluded that it's pretty much
impossible.

It could easily be built into tricycles if you wanted to though.

There is only one word I can think of to
desribe the thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and
that is SCARY (followed by lots of road rash and a stay in hospital).

There is a reason the back wheels follow the front and that is
stability. Rear steering involves the back going it's own way.
Interesting...


The problem is that to turn away from an obstacle you have to steer towards it.
This means that situations can arise where it is not possible to avoid the
obstacle with rear steering but it could have been avoided with front steering.

It wouldn't be difficult to castor the rear wheels so that they return to
straight ahead of their own accord. The opposite occurs in a car when you
reverse, so it gives you the impression that rear steer is much more
unstable than it has to be.


Very few HPVs have reverse gears[1], so the necessary corrections possible with
a car are not available.

[1] Yes, I know there are a few.
--
Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen


  #9  
Old June 21st 04, 06:23 PM
Doki
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Mark South wrote:
"Doki" wrote in message
...

David Martin wrote:
On 21/6/04 3:56 pm, in article , "Peter
Clinch" wrote:

Rear steer is a different matter. I think it was in C+ that
someone asked this and Mike Burrows answered it. IIRC he
basically said that what's fine in theory doesn't work quite so
well in practice and rear steer bikes tend to be patronised by
people called Koko with large red noses...

I was just thinking about this and considering what pushing a rear
steer trolley is like.


Just a case of practice, IME of pushing trolleys with the steering
wheels at the back.


Do you actually know of any documented case of someone being able to
ride a rear-steered bicycle?

All the experiments I have read of have concluded that it's pretty
much impossible.

It could easily be built into tricycles if you wanted to though.


I was thinking of a pair of rear wheels TBH. I've not tried it, or read up
on. I wouldn't even want to try riding a rear steer bicycle, too much weight
over the wheel that's lurching across the road quite rapidly...

There is only one word I can think of to
desribe the thought of rear wheel steering on a fast downhill and
that is SCARY (followed by lots of road rash and a stay in
hospital).

There is a reason the back wheels follow the front and that is
stability. Rear steering involves the back going it's own way.
Interesting...


The problem is that to turn away from an obstacle you have to steer
towards it. This means that situations can arise where it is not
possible to avoid the obstacle with rear steering but it could have
been avoided with front steering.


I'm afraid I don't really *get* countersteering. I must do it, but I've
never noticed myself do it. Probably all bunged away in the brain stem and
never consciously thought about.

It wouldn't be difficult to castor the rear wheels so that they
return to straight ahead of their own accord. The opposite occurs in
a car when you reverse, so it gives you the impression that rear
steer is much more unstable than it has to be.


Very few HPVs have reverse gears[1], so the necessary corrections
possible with a car are not available.

[1] Yes, I know there are a few.


I wasn't thinking of having a reverse gear on the bike, just that if you
ever try reversing at speed in a car, the slightest steering input results
in the car winding a lot of lock on by itself. The same effect gives the
steering self centring when you're going forwards.


  #10  
Old June 21st 04, 07:57 PM
Danny Colyer
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Mark South wrote:
Do you actually know of any documented case of someone being able to ride a
rear-steered bicycle?

All the experiments I have read of have concluded that it's pretty much
impossible.


I've ridden rear steer bikes. Once you get the hang of it it's pretty
easy, though I haven't ridden them at any great speed.

Actually, come to think of it, the bikes I'm thinking of have 2 wheel
steering. So it's not the same thing at all:
URL:http://www.unicycle.uk.com/shop/shopdisplayproduct.asp?catalogid=263

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
 




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