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Do bicycles and cars mix?



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 14th 03, 03:36 PM
Pbwalther
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Default Do bicycles and cars mix?

Well, it seems the combination of undertrained, careless drivers and
bicycles don't mix.


The odd thing is that according to estimates I have read, motorists rates of
fatal injury per hour is twice as high as cyclist.

Interestingly enough, the data distorts the danger of cycling. I read through
the data. Almost half of the cyclists killed in the USA were killed cycling at
night and I will bet you that nearly all of them did not have active lighting
systems. So if you don't ride at night (or use a lighting system if you do)
your risk of fatality is one quarter of a motorist! And if you cull out the
cyclists who get killed by wrong way cycling and so on the risk falls to about
1/8th of motorists.

So why do cyclists have such low fatality rates? Well most motorists are
killed by one of the following: driving while intoxicated, going to sleep at
the wheel, or driving way too fast for conditions. Cyclist do not usually do
these things. It is flat hard to ride a bike whilst intoxicated. Few people
ride bikes when they are almost asleep. And it is mighty hard to get a bike
going fast enough to make excessive speed a meaningful hazard.

Sure I feel safer in an automobile then I do on my bike but the data says I am
not.
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  #22  
Old July 15th 03, 08:21 PM
Robert J. Matter
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Default Do bicycles and cars mix?

Brandon Sommerville wrote:

You're right. Motorists don't remember the courteous cyclists they
pass, they don't remember the ones that stop properly and obey traffic
laws. They remember the ones that blast through intersections without
looking or veer around erratically through slow moving traffic.

Once they've associated cyclists with dangerous behaviour, they
determine that they should all be off the road.


I got news for you. You can be a law abiding cyclist and when you take a lane and delay cagers nothing raises their ire and desire to get you off the road more.

-Bob Matter
-----------
"It is said that the only time a person feels more
important than the whole of his community is when
he is insane -- or when he is driving. This is the
basis of car culture, the idea that the world and
all of the world's people are merely in its way."
--Travis Hugh Culley, _The Immortal Class_
  #23  
Old July 16th 03, 01:55 AM
Pete
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Default Do bicycles and cars mix?


"(null)" wrote


Cars pay for new roads and get a subsidy of about .04 cents
per mile. Bicycles pay for nothing.\


This one was not even a good troll.
Again, factually incorrect.

Cars pay for nothing. Bicycles pay for nothing. People pay for everything.
Almost every adult cyclist is also a car owner, and an ever greater
percentage are income and sales tax payer.
As such, they contribute to the public road costs just like everyone else.

Pete


  #24  
Old July 16th 03, 03:26 AM
Bernie
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Default Do bicycles and cars mix?



"Eric S. Sande" wrote:

Lot of assumptions in this post. Maybe the guy didnt see him at all.


Wrong. He did see him, he swerved around the rider.

You could also get your ass run over while "dominating the center line."


You could die in bed.

Never assume.


I went with the facts.

This sounds like a road with a lot of space on the right.


He's in a one lane road 40% out behind a truck.

He has a truck in front of him whose intentions are unknown.

It is better to ride a consistent line to the right, where it
doesnt matter if you're seen or not, than to ride left and cut right.


If the truck crushes him to the right he's just as dead. If the
truck driver can't see him he's increased his risk factor significantly.

It is better to ride like you're not seen than to ride to be seen.


It is better to manage your position in traffic.

Most of the time, you can't do both.


I can manage my position in traffic to maximize visibility and
opportunity.

Look at it this way. He's in the truck's blind spot and he wants to
turn right, but he hasn't got the lane.

The first thing to do is to make sure the truck knows he's back there.

That's a simple left drift to pick up the truck's mirror.

A basic maneuver.

The car behind shouldn't have an incentive to pass then.

The car may drop under him to the right. He brakes, falls back,
and merges behind the car to get the right turn.

If the car doesn't drop under him he can merge right and get the
turn behind the truck and ahead of the car.

Easy as pie.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
in.edu__________


No doubt he saw me. I was taking enough lane that on that narrow roadway -
and doing only maybe 20 mph - that I had no expectations of any one
attempting a pass. Especially as I said, with a semi slowing to a stop in
front of me.
Bernie

  #25  
Old July 16th 03, 03:35 AM
Bernie
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Default Do bicycles and cars mix?



R15757 wrote:

Eric S. Sande wrote:

I can manage my position in traffic to maximize visibility and
opportunity.

Look at it this way. He's in the truck's blind spot and he wants to
turn right, but he hasn't got the lane.

The first thing to do is to make sure the truck knows he's back there.

That's a simple left drift to pick up the truck's mirror.

A basic maneuver.

The car behind shouldn't have an incentive to pass then.

The car may drop under him to the right. He brakes, falls back,
and merges behind the car to get the right turn.

If the car doesn't drop under him he can merge right and get the
turn behind the truck and ahead of the car.

Easy as pie.


This is ridiculous Eric. Drifting to the left to let the truck driver know
you're there does the rider no good whatsoever. The truck driver and the car
driver both will then of course figure the cyclist is turning left. And then
the rider will disappear from truck guy's view, confusing the hell out of
him--where'd that guy go?? If you're going to be using so-called vehicular
cycling, at least ride in a predictable fashion.

The rider should stay behind the truck, yes in the blind spot, and observe.
Makes no difference if the truck driver sees him or not. Probably better if he
doesn't. Never attempt to squeeze past any vehicle on the right if that vehicle
may be turning right, especially a big truck.

Riding to be seen is a fool's game. It will work 99 out of 100 times, then that
100th time it won't work, you won't be seen, and you'll be in exactly the worst
place on the road. Take responsibility for your own safety instead of pawning
it off on other drivers.

Robert


Guys, as usual, I was riding to be seen by the driver behind me. Just found it
unusually thick headed of him to squeeze by when there was no room on the side or
in front of us to "squeeze".
Bernie

  #26  
Old July 16th 03, 03:56 AM
Bernie
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Default Do bicycles and cars mix?



Ryan Cousineau wrote:

In article ,
(Tom Keats) wrote:

In article ,
(R15757) writes:

I know this stretch, and have ridden it myself. Narrow lane, and
the only thing on the right is sidewalk, and then concrete barrier.
No shoulder, no verge. This is definitely entire-lane-taking
territory. Riding on there is truly "threading the needle". And
Bernie forgot to mention the killer diagonal RR tracks.

It is better to ride like you're not seen than to ride to be seen. Most of
the
time, you can't do both.


In this particular stretch, I opt for the latter. Actually,
there's not even an option. On Front St, ya bloody well *gotta*
make sure you're seen.


Front Street in New West? Why even bother? When that route was on my
commute, I happily took Columbia Street instead, which parallels Front
for its entirety.

Columbia is a far saner road, even on that harrowing climb towards the
traffic light at McBride (or whatever that little stub street that
connects Columbia to Royal and McBride is called).

I agree that if you're going to ride Front, ride down the bloody middle
of the street and just **** off the trucks, because that's the only way
you'll be safe (too narrow, no verge, bad sight lines due to the
concrete pillars), but I won't drive down Front in my car if I have a
choice. Why would you choose to ride a bike down Front?

--
Ryan Cousineau,
http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club


It gets me to Sapperton Landing where I can ride alongside the mighty muddy Fraser
in the morning. What's the point of cycling if
(1) you're not willing to ride the ride wherever you must go
and
(2) take the scenic route
??
Best regards, Bernie

  #27  
Old July 16th 03, 06:09 AM
R15757
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Default Do bicycles and cars mix?

Eric Sande wrote:

I didn't do it by assuming I had all the answers and that my reflexes
would get me through. Instead I read what material was out there and
accepted the advice, with a grain of salt, that other practicioners
could give me.


By the material that was out there, you must mean Effective Cycling. What other
material is there?

And I ride, a lot. I still don't have all the answers. But what I do
have is an appreciation for what real systematic effort will yeild in
terms of traffic safety and efficiency, even under the worst possible
conditions.

And none of it is hack riding. It all buids towards a technique that
I can take anywhere and that continues to serve me well.


I share your appreciation for systematic effort in traffic. But our systems are
totally different.

If you were to ride behind me for a while, you would probably assume I was
riding according to the ol' vehicular cycling principle. My style looks to the
untrained eye pretty much the same. But my attitude is fundamentally different.
V.C. riders ride in order to maximize visibility and to look predictable to
motorists. I ride to maximize space. I have given up on depending on motorists
for anything.

We might be riding the exact same line out in the lane, but you would ride it
to be seen, and I would ride it because I assume I'm *not* seen. Interesting,
eh? I love visibility as much as the next guy, but it's a pipe dream. The V.C.
rider's attitude of dependence on others and faith in traffic law principles is
what will put him in the hospital every now and again. To me, this is not an
acceptable risk.

VC is a good guideline for beginners who dont know their ass from a pothole.
For riders who are out in traffic all the time, it's not good enough.

Robert
  #28  
Old July 16th 03, 01:14 PM
jmk
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Default Do bicycles and cars mix?

In North Carolina -- and most likely other states -- roads are funded
through state and federal taxes. Some of those taxes are on gas and
other fuels, some are on tires, some comes from vehicle registration
feeds and some of it comes from the general fund (income taxes). Cars
and heavier vehicles do more damage to roads than pedestrians and
cyclists. This is acknowleged via the federal "heavy vehicles use tax."
FWIW, these fees also pay for mass transit, airports, aquatic stuff
(boating), and railroads.

Pete wrote:
"(null)" wrote


Cars pay for new roads and get a subsidy of about .04 cents
per mile. Bicycles pay for nothing.\



This one was not even a good troll.
Again, factually incorrect.

Cars pay for nothing. Bicycles pay for nothing. People pay for everything.
Almost every adult cyclist is also a car owner, and an ever greater
percentage are income and sales tax payer.
As such, they contribute to the public road costs just like everyone else.

Pete



  #29  
Old July 17th 03, 12:27 AM
R15757
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Default Do bicycles and cars mix?

DC quoted unknown material:

Safety Benefits of Bike Lanes

Bike lanes help define road space, decrease the stress level of
bicyclists riding in traffic, encourage bicyclists to ride in the
correct direction of travel, and signal motorists that cyclists have a
right to the road. Bike lanes help to better organize the flow of
traffic and reduce the chance that motorists will stray into cyclists'
path of travel.1, 2 Bicyclists have stated their preference for marked
on-street bicycle lanes in numerous surveys.3 In addition, several
real-time studies (where cyclists of varying abilities and backgrounds
ride and assess actual routes and street conditions) have found that
cyclists are more comfortable and assess a street as having a better
level of service for them where there are marked bike lanes present.4

In summary, bike lanes do the following:

support and encourage bicycling as a means of transportation
help define road space
promote a more orderly flow of traffic
encourage bicyclists to ride in the correct direction, with the flow
of traffic
give bicyclists a clear place to be so they are not tempted to ride on
the sidewalk
remind motorists to look for cyclists when turning or opening car
doors
signal motorists that cyclists have a right to the road
reduce the chance that motorists will stray into cyclists' path of
travel
make it less likely that passing motorists swerve toward opposing
traffic
decrease the stress level of bicyclists riding in traffic
Well-designed facilities encourage proper behavior and decrease the
likelihood of crashes. Numerous studies have shown that bicycle lanes
improve safety and promote proper riding behavior..5

In 1996, over 2000 League of American Bicyclist members were surveyed
about the crashes (accidents) they were involved in over the course of
the previous year. From the information, a relative danger index was
calculated which shows that streets with bike lanes were the safest
places to ride, having a significantly lower crash rate then either
major or minor streets without any bicycle facilities; moreover, they
are safer than trails and sidewalks as well.6
The addition of bicycle lanes in Davis, California reduced crashes by
31 percent.7
Bicycle lanes on a major avenue in Eugene, Oregon resulted in an
increase in bicycle use and a substantial reduction in the bicycle
crash rate. The crash rate per 100,000 bike miles fell by almost half
and the motor vehicle crash rate also fell significantly.8
When the city of Corvallis, OR installed 13 miles of bicycle lanes in
one year, the number of bicycle crashes fell from 40 in the year prior
to the installation to just 16 in the year afterwards, and of the 5
crashes that occurred on streets with bike lanes, all involved
bicyclists riding at night with no lights.9
In Chicago, Illinois, crash severity was reduced in one study of
marking bike lanes in a narrow cross section where 5 foot bike lanes
were marked next to 7 foot parking lanes.10
In Denmark, bicycle lanes reduced the number of bicycle crashes by 35
percent.11 Some of the bike lanes reached risk reductions of 70 to 80
percent.12
A comparison of crash rates of all types in major cities has shown
that cities with higher bicycle use have lower traffic crash rates of
all types than cities with lower bicycle use.13
In a national study comparing streets with bike lanes and those
without, several important observations were made:14
Wrong-way riding was significantly lower on the streets with bike
lanes.
In approaching intersections, 15% of cyclists on streets without bike
lanes rode on the sidewalks, vs. 3% on the streets with bike lanes.
On streets with bike lanes, 81% of cyclists obeyed stop signs, vs. 55%
on streets without.
In Cambridge, sidewalk bicycling was cut in half after the
installation of bicycle lanes on Mass. Ave. in Central Square.15
Corvallis and Eugene, Oregon, cities with good bikeway networks, have
the highest number of riders and rider behavior is the best:
wrong-way riding is minimal, fewer ride on the sidewalk than in other
Oregon cities.
In looking at comparable streets with and without bicycle lanes in
Davis and Santa Barbara, California, the number of cyclists riding on
the wrong side of the street was one third as much on streets with
bicycle lanes.


could you please post the citations that go with this piece? that would be most
helpful to me at this point in my life. Thank you.

Robert

  #30  
Old July 17th 03, 07:12 AM
Eric S. Sande
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Default Do bicycles and cars mix?

If you were to ride behind me for a while, you would probably assume I
was riding according to the ol' vehicular cycling principle. My style
looks to the untrained eye pretty much the same. But my attitude is
fundamentally different. V.C. riders ride in order to maximize
visibility and to look predictable to motorists. I ride to maximize
space. I have given up on depending on motorists for anything.


Interesting. I'm a fan of the "invisible bubble" theory myself.

That's the inverse of your "invisible cyclist" theory. See some of
my other posts on how to manage road space.

We might be riding the exact same line out in the lane, but you would
ride it to be seen, and I would ride it because I assume I'm *not* seen.
Interesting, eh?


It comes down to how you define visibility. You seem to assume that
I actually ride in a trusting manner. You would be wrong. As I stated,
my motive is to get to point B, intact. And obey the traffic laws and
stay alive.

However I am not under any illusions as to how best to approach the
problem.

I love visibility as much as the next guy, but it's a pipe dream. The
V.C. rider's attitude of dependence on others and faith in traffic law
principles is what will put him in the hospital every now and again.


I'm a street rider, not what you think of as a V.C. rider, I think.

I'm on record as saying EC is "a good start". Maybe we're closer on this
than you seem to think. I remain flexible.

To me, this is not an acceptable risk.


Mastery of the traffic environment on a bicycle is not a passive process.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
in.edu__________
 




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