retro/modern wheel recomendations?

I've decided to simply continue with my GP4s. I've found a good
source of tires. But, as mentioned in the first post the rear wheel
is hopelessly out of round. And no, I'm not interested in hearing an
arguement about various esoteric ways to fix it. I built it, rode it
for years, bent it, and gave up tweeking it 20 freeking years ago.

What I WOULD like to know is where can I get a new old stock 32 hole
GP4? I know about craigslist, Ebay, Yellow Jersey... Anyone got one
laying around?

And, at the risk of igniting a war of the bike nerds, would it
significantly improve the performance of my wheelset to switch to
eliptical or bladed spokes?

Thanks in advance.
Matt
Ames Iowa

wrote:
I've decided to simply continue with my GP4s. I've found a good
source of tires. But, as mentioned in the first post the rear wheel
is hopelessly out of round. And no, I'm not interested in hearing an
arguement about various esoteric ways to fix it. I built it, rode it
for years, bent it, and gave up tweeking it 20 freeking years ago.

What I WOULD like to know is where can I get a new old stock 32 hole
GP4? I know about craigslist, Ebay, Yellow Jersey... Anyone got one
laying around?

And, at the risk of igniting a war of the bike nerds, would it
significantly improve the performance of my wheelset to switch to
eliptical or bladed spokes?

Modern rims are good, available and cheap. Velocity Escape $60 for example.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

wrote in message
...
I've decided to simply continue with my GP4s. I've found a good
source of tires. But, as mentioned in the first post the rear wheel
is hopelessly out of round. And no, I'm not interested in hearing an
arguement about various esoteric ways to fix it. I built it, rode it
for years, bent it, and gave up tweeking it 20 freeking years ago.

What I WOULD like to know is where can I get a new old stock 32 hole
GP4? I know about craigslist, Ebay, Yellow Jersey... Anyone got one
laying around?

And, at the risk of igniting a war of the bike nerds, would it
significantly improve the performance of my wheelset to switch to
eliptical or bladed spokes?

Thanks in advance.
Matt
Ames Iowa


Is Michael's Cyclery still in Ames?

wrote:
I've decided to simply continue with my GP4s. I've found a good
source of tires. But, as mentioned in the first post the rear wheel
is hopelessly out of round. And no, I'm not interested in hearing an
arguement about various esoteric ways to fix it. I built it, rode it
for years, bent it, and gave up tweeking it 20 freeking years ago.

if the rim /is/ bent, that's fine. but it might be ok. remove the rim
from the wheel and hold it against the straight front wheel. any gaps?
if so, it's bent. if not, you could try a rebuild and see if you can
get it straight again.



What I WOULD like to know is where can I get a new old stock 32 hole
GP4? I know about craigslist, Ebay, Yellow Jersey... Anyone got one
laying around?

And, at the risk of igniting a war of the bike nerds, would it
significantly improve the performance of my wheelset to switch to
eliptical or bladed spokes?

depends how fast you go. benefit doesn't show up much on a graph until
you're over 20mph.

On Oct 12, 12:07*pm, _
wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:03:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Oct 11, 8:07*pm, jim beam wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 11, 8:17 am, jim beam wrote:
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
snip

'Modern' rims
will probably weigh about the same(or more) but have non necessary
things like welded seams and machined sidewalls, things that are
marketing driven, but don't help the rim performance..but do make them
more expensive.
not true.

1. machined rims allow 100% brake pad contact from day one - they are
therefore safer.

Man, before machined rims people risked their lives with the very
unsafe non-machined rims. The literature is full of stories of deaths
and serius injuries due to non-machined rims

tell you what, you put your money where your mouth is. *you come ride a
new unmachined rim, with new brake blocks [with the resultant only 50%
contact area], in the rain, down mason st between sacramento and clay in
san francisco. *i'll stand at the bottom by the stop sign to witness
your efforts. *if you're right, i won't need to stop any traffic for
you. *will i. *[i'll carry a roll of t.p. for you though, just in case.]

2. welded seams ensure no misalignment and better continuity for
braking. also, no discontinuity means they're more resistant to dents
in that region. they offer better bending strength too if you're
looking at a rear wheel that can regularly experience non-drive side
spokes slacking.

dismissing these benefits as "marketing driven" "don't help rim
performance" and "more expensive" [as if that's some kind of technical
problem] is failure to understand. if you don't want to learn, fine,
but keep it to yourself. repeating jobstian bull**** as if there's some
kind of advantage to having your head up someone else's rear end makes
no sense.

I don't know where that is, but I guess that nobody ever rode down
that hill before machined rims. You know this because you researched
it.

Well, of course he did - it's published in the esteemed Journal Of Because
I Said So.

Which is just fine. He is entitled to his opinion. His problem is that
he thinks his opinions are universal truths that everyone must accept.
If you don't he'll make reference to his supposed metallurgical
knowledge and if he doesn't convince you he'll start insulting you.
The fact is that he hasn't provided any objective evidence that newer
rims are so much better. He hasn't cited anything. Yet, if we all
don't agree that new rims are safer, stronger, faster, stiffer or
whatever else we are all morons cause he says so.

On Oct 12, 12:20*pm, " wrote:
I've decided to simply continue with my GP4s. *I've found a good
source of tires. *But, as mentioned in the first post the rear wheel
is hopelessly out of round. *And no, I'm not interested in hearing an
arguement about various esoteric ways to fix it. *I built it, rode it
for years, bent it, and gave up tweeking it 20 freeking years ago.

What I WOULD like to know is where can I get a new old stock 32 hole
GP4? *I know about craigslist, Ebay, Yellow Jersey... *Anyone got one
laying around?

And, at the risk of igniting a war of the bike nerds, would it
significantly improve the performance of my wheelset to switch to
eliptical or bladed spokes?

Thanks in advance.
Matt
Ames Iowa

I don't know if you'll find a gp4, but if you look around on ebay and
other sources on the web, you'll probably find a box shaped tubular
rim for a reasonable price.

In article
,
" wrote:

On Oct 11, 8:06*pm, jim beam wrote:
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:



On Oct 11, 8:17 am, jim beam wrote:
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote: snip

'Modern' rims will probably weigh about the same(or more) but
have non necessary things like welded seams and machined
sidewalls, things that are marketing driven, but don't help the
rim performance..but do make them more expensive.

not true.

1. machined rims allow 100% brake pad contact from day one -
they are therefore safer.

Proper brake pad alignment is what allows "100% contact" between the
brake pad and the rim, not the finished texture of the rim sidewall.

2. welded seams ensure no misalignment and better continuity for
braking. also, no discontinuity means they're more resistant to
dents in that region. they offer better bending strength too if
you're looking at a rear wheel that can regularly experience
non-drive side spokes slacking.

Oh bull****. Misalignment of the ends of the rim hoop is a red herring.
Any decent wheelbuilder would spend the few seconds it would take to fix
this. Even if not, it's rare that someone is in such a critical braking
posture that a bump at the seam is going to cause problems. Jeez, I
have used mostly non-machined rims for 40+ years and a little bump at
the seam has never been anything more than a minor annoyance. And
"bending strength?" Another red herring. jim, you sell more whoppers
than Burger King.

Peter- who after his years in the business knows much more than jim beam
or I ever will about bicycles- is quite right in his assessment. These
processes do nothing more than raise costs for the end user.

dismissing these benefits as "marketing driven" "don't help rim
performance" and "more expensive" [as if that's some kind of
technical problem] is failure to understand.

Nah, jim, it's easy to understand. You're the one that has the
difficulty with comprehension.

thanks Jim..always a pleasure....

Dubious at best, which is why jim resides in my killfile.

what's not a pleasure is watching someone you otherwise respect
making an ass of themselves regurgitating underinformed b.s.

You say this with so much conviction that I am sure that you can cite
literature that shows that shows that today's rims are better than
those of the 70s 80s.

I, myself haven't read anything and can't tell the difference between
a wheel built with say: mavic ma 3 versus me 2, or a wheel build with
ritchey rims or matrix iso rim or a campy v shaped rim from the 80s.
The only difference that I can tell obviously is that nowadays rims
require that you use a spoke gauge to build a wheel or pull the
nipples through. That is a pain in the ass.

Yup.

Aside from rims being more delicate, they are about the same. They
still weigh between 400 and 500 grms and go around a hub in circles.
We have more variety and more advertisement but they don't do
anything magical that they didn't do before. I am still waiting for
the magic rim that will be lighter, stronger, cheaper and faster, but
so far nothing.

As the old saying goes, "stronger, lighter, cheaper: pick two."

A wheel built with gp 40 or gp 4 will ride perfectly fine for
thousands of mile. Compared to a new wheel, it won't make one bit of
difference. The only thing that you may notice is that the brake pads
will wear the dark stuff out and you'll end up with a silver and
black rim wall.

Always ugly, which is one reason that Mavic et all machine their rims.
Nobody wants their $500 wheels to look like crap after the first ride in
the rain. jim's rants to the contrary, it's all about boutique
aesthetics and marketspeak.

jim beam wrote:

eh??? you don't notice if your brakes are only half as good??? i
sure do!

You think braking is only half as good when only half of each brake pad
contacts the rim?

That's not right, is it?

~PB

wrote:
On Oct 12, 12:07�pm, _
wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:03:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Oct 11, 8:07�pm, jim beam wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 11, 8:17 am, jim beam wrote:
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
snip
'Modern' rims
will probably weigh about the same(or more) but have non necessary
things like welded seams and machined sidewalls, things that are
marketing driven, but don't help the rim performance..but do make them
more expensive.
not true.
1. machined rims allow 100% brake pad contact from day one - they are
therefore safer.
Man, before machined rims people risked their lives with the very
unsafe non-machined rims. The literature is full of stories of deaths
and serius injuries due to non-machined rims
tell you what, you put your money where your mouth is. �you come ride a
new unmachined rim, with new brake blocks [with the resultant only 50%
contact area], in the rain, down mason st between sacramento and clay in
san francisco. �i'll stand at the bottom by the stop sign to witness
your efforts. �if you're right, i won't need to stop any traffic for
you. �will i. �[i'll carry a roll of t.p. for you though, just in case.]
2. welded seams ensure no misalignment and better continuity for
braking. also, no discontinuity means they're more resistant to dents
in that region. they offer better bending strength too if you're
looking at a rear wheel that can regularly experience non-drive side
spokes slacking.
dismissing these benefits as "marketing driven" "don't help rim
performance" and "more expensive" [as if that's some kind of technical
problem] is failure to understand. if you don't want to learn, fine,
but keep it to yourself. repeating jobstian bull**** as if there's some
kind of advantage to having your head up someone else's rear end makes
no sense.
I don't know where that is, but I guess that nobody ever rode down
that hill before machined rims. You know this because you researched
it.
Well, of course he did - it's published in the esteemed Journal Of Because
I Said So.

Which is just fine. He is entitled to his opinion. His problem is that
he thinks his opinions are universal truths that everyone must accept.

no dude - look for yourself. the contact area on an unmachined rim and
new brake block is not 100%, it's about 50%, at least for my ma2 anyway.
get a magic marker, black out a section of rim, then ride around the
block and use the brakes. then measure the contact area evidenced by
wear on the marked section vs the width of the brake block. you /did/
check your facts didn't you?


If you don't he'll make reference to his supposed metallurgical
knowledge and if he doesn't convince you he'll start insulting you.
The fact is that he hasn't provided any objective evidence that newer
rims are so much better. He hasn't cited anything. Yet, if we all
don't agree that new rims are safer, stronger, faster, stiffer or
whatever else we are all morons cause he says so.

screaming for a cite rather than getting off ones own ass and bothering
to check something trivial is not a technical problem. nor is having
sufficient basic mechanical knowledge to recognize the effect box size
section has on a rim's stiffness but bleating about it anyway.

On 2008-10-12, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,
" wrote:

On Oct 11, 8:06*pm, jim beam wrote:
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:



On Oct 11, 8:17 am, jim beam wrote:
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote: snip

'Modern' rims will probably weigh about the same(or more) but
have non necessary things like welded seams and machined
sidewalls, things that are marketing driven, but don't help the
rim performance..but do make them more expensive.

not true.

1. machined rims allow 100% brake pad contact from day one -
they are therefore safer.

Proper brake pad alignment is what allows "100% contact" between the
brake pad and the rim, not the finished texture of the rim sidewall.

I think the idea is that the machined rim is flatter.

Not sure exactly what a "machined rim" is, but I'm guessing it means
they extrude it a bit thicker than they need it and then cut it down.
The cutting machine presumably works to a much finer tolerance than the
extrusion process.

If the rim isn't quite flat then you won't get such a good contact, even
if the pads are perfectly aligned.

[...]
Aside from rims being more delicate, they are about the same. They
still weigh between 400 and 500 grms and go around a hub in circles.
We have more variety and more advertisement but they don't do
anything magical that they didn't do before. I am still waiting for
the magic rim that will be lighter, stronger, cheaper and faster, but
so far nothing.

As the old saying goes, "stronger, lighter, cheaper: pick two."

Well Mavic rims certainly aren't getting any cheaper, so I guess they
must be stronger and lighter