Inside a Chainglider after 3500km with zero chain maintenance

On 14/04/15 06:13, Duane wrote:
On 13/04/2015 3:59 PM, James wrote:
On 14/04/15 04:43, Lou Holtman wrote:


You got it. No more no less. But if I was commuting in your horrible
weather I would ride a bike like this:

http://www.santosbikes.com/fietsen/lite-serie/race-lite

with dynohub of course.



That looks nice. What does one of those bikes cost?



http://www.vakantiefietser.nl/the-holiday-biker/santos/

Thanks. Not going down that path. ;-)

--
JS

On 14/04/15 03:59, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:57:08 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
SNIP

What drag and what weight? A Rohloff system complete weighs about the same as a derailleur system complete, and is between 1 and 4% less efficient than common top of the line derailleur systems, in return for which you don't have to clean it or tune it or spend constantly on replacement parts, and you can change multiple gears at once, even at standstill, a very considerable boon for utility riding. Check out the first post in this thread about maintenance saving. (Admittedly, you can get similar maintenance savings with the cheaper Shimano hub gearboxes, but they didn't last well in my hands. Note however, Dutch and continental experience, where service is available, unlike here, is different for the Shimano gearboxes.)

There is a weight penalty for a road bike -- between one and two pounds, and it's all in the back. But aside from that (which isn't meaningful for some people), I was wondering about the long-term cost savings. According to Lou, chain life for his Rohloff (no chaincase) is about the same as the chain life for his derailleur bike. Lou, correct me if I am wrong. So, you would have savings on cassettes but not necessarily chains. The next question is what is the cost/life span of a Rohloff cog.

According to that Oracle eBay, Rohloff cogs range between $32 and $54. A Rohloff cog is $40 at JensonUSA. http://www.jensonusa.com/!GU7rsFY-j1...eplacement-Cog

The Tiagra level cassette on my commuter bike cost $30. http://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...06&category=41
I don't know the lifespan of a Rohloff cog, but it is probably longer than my cassette -- plus you can flip them. Cassette life varies depending on how diligent you are changing chains. I'd be curious to see how the cassette and cog compare.

I agree that if you don't mind the weight and the absence of STI shifters, some oddities in terms of shifting (backing off to get a gear), 14 gears instead of 18/20/22, wider steps, adding oil and cost, increased friction (not making that up; it's been measured), then it's a great system. You can shift when stopped. I assume it doesn't miss gears and sticking cables don't have the same effect (e.g. ghost shifting, etc.) It lasts forever and hoses off easier.
It probably makes a superior MTB mud bike/heavy tourer.


I think it would be good for a commuter as well, especially in hilly
terrain. Hiding the complexity of gears inside the hub makes a nice
neat solution, and likely more robust. It's not difficult to bend a
derailleur hanger even if a bike just falls over - like in a bike rack
at work. The rear derailleur isn't going to get damaged if you want to
remove the wheels and stuff the bike in the back of a car. You'll never
have the chain overshoot the biggest sprocket and jam in between the
sprocket and spokes, and you'll never get the rear derailleur caught on
a spoke (after the hanger got bent or whatever) and rip it off and take
a few spokes with it.

Yes, there are real advantages, but the price puts me off mostly, and
the extra weight a little as well - though I'd put up with that if the
price came down.

--
JS

On 4/13/2015 5:21 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, April 13, 2015 at 2:43:45 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-04-13 17:59:45 +0000, jbeattie said:

On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:57:08 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
SNIP

What drag and what weight? A Rohloff system complete weighs about the
same as a derailleur system complete, and is between 1 and 4% less
efficient than common top of the line derailleur systems, in return for
which you don't have to clean it or tune it or spend constantly on
replacement parts, and you can change multiple gears at once, even at
standstill, a very considerable boon for utility riding. Check out the
first post in this thread about maintenance saving. (Admittedly, you
can get similar maintenance savings with the cheaper Shimano hub
gearboxes, but they didn't last well in my hands. Note however, Dutch
and continental experience, where service is available, unlike here, is
different for the Shimano gearboxes.)

There is a weight penalty for a road bike -- between one and two
pounds, and it's all in the back. But aside from that (which isn't
meaningful for some people), I was wondering about the long-term cost
savings. According to Lou, chain life for his Rohloff (no chaincase)
is about the same as the chain life for his derailleur bike. Lou,
correct me if I am wrong.

Ridden in the same conditions I experience no difference.

So, you would have savings on cassettes but not necessarily chains.
The next question is what is the cost/life span of a Rohloff cog.

According to that Oracle eBay, Rohloff cogs range between $32 and $54.
A Rohloff cog is $40 at JensonUSA.
http://www.jensonusa.com/!GU7rsFY-j1...eplacement-Cog


The Tiagra level cassette on my commuter bike cost $30.
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...06&category=41

I don't know the lifespan of a Rohloff cog, but it is probably longer
than my cassette -- plus you can flip them. Cassette life varies
depending on how diligent you are changing chains. I'd be curious to
see how the cassette and cog compare.
I agree that if you don't mind the weight and the absence of STI
shifters, some oddities in terms of shifting (backing off to get a
gear), 14 gears instead of 18/20/22, wider steps, adding oil and cost,
increased friction (not making that up; it's been measured), then it's
a great system. You can shift when stopped. I assume it doesn't miss
gears and sticking cables don't have the same effect (e.g. ghost
shifting, etc.) It lasts forever and hoses off easier.It probably makes
a superior MTB mud bike/heavy tourer.-- Jay Beattie.

You got it. No more no less. But if I was commuting in your horrible
weather I would ride a bike like this:

http://www.santosbikes.com/fietsen/lite-serie/race-lite

with dynohub of course.


--

Lou

Something that I've noticed with a lot of bikes like this one and the Surly Long-Haul Trekker is that the panniers are often mounted way back of the rear axle. At one time it was taught to have as much of the weight of the bag and contents centred over the rear axle for directional stability of the bike. Has something changed that lets you mount your pannier far over the back of the rear axle without affecting bicycle directional stability/handling?

Cheers


I would look to lower BB drop as a significant factor rather
than longitudinal placement of cargo for stability on a
touring machine, all else being equal.

Flexy carriers and insufficiently stiff frame material can
also be contributing factors for touring bike squirreliness.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/13/2015 8:50 PM, Peter Howard wrote:
On 14/04/2015 8:21 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


http://www.santosbikes.com/fietsen/lite-serie/race-lite

with dynohub of course.


--

Lou

Something that I've noticed with a lot of bikes like this
one and the Surly Long-Haul Trekker is that the panniers
are often mounted way back of the rear axle. At one time
it was taught to have as much of the weight of the bag and
contents centred over the rear axle for directional
stability of the bike. Has something changed that lets you
mount your pannier far over the back of the rear axle
without affecting bicycle directional stability/handling?

Cheers

The pic from Lou's URL that came up for me showed a dark
Race Lite with pannier bag mounted way back on a low-rider
bag rail that's integrated with the fender mount loop.
There's plenty of room, I think, to hook the bag on further
forward but I suspect they mounted it back for the photo
session so as not to obscure the nice red anodised Rohloff.
Other Santos Travel Lite pics show a more substantial
looking platform rack but it looks to be a miserably
designed item with 90% of the platform behind the rear axle.
It looks like the bags can be mounted further forward on the
low-rider rail which does however have a 20kg weight limit
according to the text.
The rules haven't changed. Getting baggage weight too far
behind the rear axle still produces squirrelly handling. The
Long Haul Truckers have unusually long rear chainstays at
46cm so that you CAN get the bag weight over the axle and
still have heel-room when pedaling. Compare that with Surly
Cross Check, grandpas cyclocross frame with chainstays of
42.5cm. My antique Peugeot PGN10 measures 41cm. Surlys own
Nice Rack rear rack in Cr.Moly steel works well on many
Surly frames and many other brands with a design that places
the nose of the platform well forward of the rear axle.
Even with largish tyre and fender the Trucker still has a
cavernous space between fender and seat-tube but it's made
that way in the interests of weight distribution when loaded.
My Trucker frame started its life with me over seven years
ago with a Rohloff but I didn't like the Rohloff spring arm
chain tensioner made necessary by the Truckers downward
facing rear dropouts. The Rohloff has since migrated to a
Surly Troll frame with rearward facing "track style" fork
ends with much room for moving the axle for chain
tensioning. I still don't love that whirring Germanic coffee
grinder. It's grime proof and has a wide range for dirt road
touring. But I find the even 13% steps throughout the range
to be a pain when trying to pick things up a bit on good
smooth surfaces. If there's a head wind or a steady incline
the gear I'm in is always either too high or too low for the
conditions. The Trucker frame now with Shimano XT 9 speed is
more satisfactory with closer ratios in the top half of the
gear range.
PH

Rear pannier placement is largely determined from avoiding
heel strikes.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 8:04:31 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 14/04/15 06:13, Duane wrote:
On 13/04/2015 3:59 PM, James wrote:
On 14/04/15 04:43, Lou Holtman wrote:


You got it. No more no less. But if I was commuting in your horrible
weather I would ride a bike like this:

http://www.santosbikes.com/fietsen/lite-serie/race-lite

with dynohub of course.



That looks nice. What does one of those bikes cost?



http://www.vakantiefietser.nl/the-holiday-biker/santos/

Thanks. Not going down that path. ;-)

--
JS

Heh-heh. Santos build a good bike but it is a premium brand, with a premium part of the price for the name. You can build up a lightweight Rolloff-hubbed bike for around half the four grand (Euro) that a lightly optioned Santos racing commuter will set you back. Mmm, that isn't a bad idea. I might look into it.

Andre Jute

On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 8:14:44 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 14/04/15 03:59, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:57:08 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
SNIP

What drag and what weight? A Rohloff system complete weighs about the same as a derailleur system complete, and is between 1 and 4% less efficient than common top of the line derailleur systems, in return for which you don't have to clean it or tune it or spend constantly on replacement parts, and you can change multiple gears at once, even at standstill, a very considerable boon for utility riding. Check out the first post in this thread about maintenance saving. (Admittedly, you can get similar maintenance savings with the cheaper Shimano hub gearboxes, but they didn't last well in my hands. Note however, Dutch and continental experience, where service is available, unlike here, is different for the Shimano gearboxes.)

There is a weight penalty for a road bike -- between one and two pounds, and it's all in the back. But aside from that (which isn't meaningful for some people), I was wondering about the long-term cost savings. According to Lou, chain life for his Rohloff (no chaincase) is about the same as the chain life for his derailleur bike. Lou, correct me if I am wrong. So, you would have savings on cassettes but not necessarily chains. The next question is what is the cost/life span of a Rohloff cog.

According to that Oracle eBay, Rohloff cogs range between $32 and $54. A Rohloff cog is $40 at JensonUSA. http://www.jensonusa.com/!GU7rsFY-j1...eplacement-Cog

The Tiagra level cassette on my commuter bike cost $30. http://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...06&category=41
I don't know the lifespan of a Rohloff cog, but it is probably longer than my cassette -- plus you can flip them. Cassette life varies depending on how diligent you are changing chains. I'd be curious to see how the cassette and cog compare.

I agree that if you don't mind the weight and the absence of STI shifters, some oddities in terms of shifting (backing off to get a gear), 14 gears instead of 18/20/22, wider steps, adding oil and cost, increased friction (not making that up; it's been measured), then it's a great system. You can shift when stopped. I assume it doesn't miss gears and sticking cables don't have the same effect (e.g. ghost shifting, etc.) It lasts forever and hoses off easier.
It probably makes a superior MTB mud bike/heavy tourer.


I think it would be good for a commuter as well, especially in hilly
terrain. Hiding the complexity of gears inside the hub makes a nice
neat solution, and likely more robust. It's not difficult to bend a
derailleur hanger even if a bike just falls over - like in a bike rack
at work. The rear derailleur isn't going to get damaged if you want to
remove the wheels and stuff the bike in the back of a car. You'll never
have the chain overshoot the biggest sprocket and jam in between the
sprocket and spokes, and you'll never get the rear derailleur caught on
a spoke (after the hanger got bent or whatever) and rip it off and take
a few spokes with it.

Yes, there are real advantages, but the price puts me off mostly, and
the extra weight a little as well - though I'd put up with that if the
price came down.

--
JS

Now that between my bike and the gym I put in I'm relatively fit again, I use my Rohloff (which was absolutely essential to get me up the hill to the house when I bought it) for recreational rides in very hilly country. But, the truth is, if you're young and fit, what Joe Riel implied is right: the 8 gears and 300 percent (and small change) of range of the Shimano 8 speed is enough. But, in my experience, you'll buy two Shimano hub gearboxes before your Rohloff is run in. A Rohloff makes the sense Jay was looking for if you're a high-miler. Otherwise it is probably an engineering indulgence. But, what the hell, you only live once, you can't take it with you, and an hour of my time is anyway worth more than the most expensive Rohloff setup.

But I can easily see that an upmarket roadie who lives in wet or otherwise adverse conditions, whose practice time is very valuable, could find it worthwhile to have a Rohloff-equipped winter practice bike. That's beyond a luxury; I could easily make a case for it as a necessity to what the insensitive Scharfie calls the "spousal unit" (you don't have to be an engineer to be insensitive, but it surely helps!).

Andre Jute

On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 8:37:15 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/13/2015 5:21 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, April 13, 2015 at 2:43:45 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 2015-04-13 17:59:45 +0000, jbeattie said:

On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:57:08 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
SNIP

What drag and what weight? A Rohloff system complete weighs about the
same as a derailleur system complete, and is between 1 and 4% less
efficient than common top of the line derailleur systems, in return for
which you don't have to clean it or tune it or spend constantly on
replacement parts, and you can change multiple gears at once, even at
standstill, a very considerable boon for utility riding. Check out the
first post in this thread about maintenance saving. (Admittedly, you
can get similar maintenance savings with the cheaper Shimano hub
gearboxes, but they didn't last well in my hands. Note however, Dutch
and continental experience, where service is available, unlike here, is
different for the Shimano gearboxes.)

There is a weight penalty for a road bike -- between one and two
pounds, and it's all in the back. But aside from that (which isn't
meaningful for some people), I was wondering about the long-term cost
savings. According to Lou, chain life for his Rohloff (no chaincase)
is about the same as the chain life for his derailleur bike. Lou,
correct me if I am wrong.

Ridden in the same conditions I experience no difference.

So, you would have savings on cassettes but not necessarily chains.
The next question is what is the cost/life span of a Rohloff cog.

According to that Oracle eBay, Rohloff cogs range between $32 and $54..
A Rohloff cog is $40 at JensonUSA.
http://www.jensonusa.com/!GU7rsFY-j1...eplacement-Cog


The Tiagra level cassette on my commuter bike cost $30.
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...06&category=41

I don't know the lifespan of a Rohloff cog, but it is probably longer
than my cassette -- plus you can flip them. Cassette life varies
depending on how diligent you are changing chains. I'd be curious to
see how the cassette and cog compare.
I agree that if you don't mind the weight and the absence of STI
shifters, some oddities in terms of shifting (backing off to get a
gear), 14 gears instead of 18/20/22, wider steps, adding oil and cost,
increased friction (not making that up; it's been measured), then it's
a great system. You can shift when stopped. I assume it doesn't miss
gears and sticking cables don't have the same effect (e.g. ghost
shifting, etc.) It lasts forever and hoses off easier.It probably makes
a superior MTB mud bike/heavy tourer.-- Jay Beattie.

You got it. No more no less. But if I was commuting in your horrible
weather I would ride a bike like this:

http://www.santosbikes.com/fietsen/lite-serie/race-lite

with dynohub of course.


--

Lou

Something that I've noticed with a lot of bikes like this one and the Surly Long-Haul Trekker is that the panniers are often mounted way back of the rear axle. At one time it was taught to have as much of the weight of the bag and contents centred over the rear axle for directional stability of the bike. Has something changed that lets you mount your pannier far over the back of the rear axle without affecting bicycle directional stability/handling?

Cheers


I would look to lower BB drop as a significant factor rather
than longitudinal placement of cargo for stability on a
touring machine, all else being equal.

Flexy carriers and insufficiently stiff frame material can
also be contributing factors for touring bike squirreliness.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

LENGTHEN chain stays at dropout....larger front tire....careful and analytical tire pressure adjustments and a try at top tube weighting with a rope hung water jug to see what for and aft weighting does to your composure.

quality round carcass touring tires.

suggestions that commuters benfit from 1000 Rollo hubs is truly witless...

On 14/04/2015 12:12 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 8:14:44 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 14/04/15 03:59, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:57:08 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
SNIP

What drag and what weight? A Rohloff system complete weighs about the same as a derailleur system complete, and is between 1 and 4% less efficient than common top of the line derailleur systems, in return for which you don't have to clean it or tune it or spend constantly on replacement parts, and you can change multiple gears at once, even at standstill, a very considerable boon for utility riding. Check out the first post in this thread about maintenance saving. (Admittedly, you can get similar maintenance savings with the cheaper Shimano hub gearboxes, but they didn't last well in my hands. Note however, Dutch and continental experience, where service is available, unlike here, is different for the Shimano gearboxes.)

There is a weight penalty for a road bike -- between one and two pounds, and it's all in the back. But aside from that (which isn't meaningful for some people), I was wondering about the long-term cost savings. According to Lou, chain life for his Rohloff (no chaincase) is about the same as the chain life for his derailleur bike. Lou, correct me if I am wrong. So, you would have savings on cassettes but not necessarily chains. The next question is what is the cost/life span of a Rohloff cog.

According to that Oracle eBay, Rohloff cogs range between $32 and $54. A Rohloff cog is $40 at JensonUSA. http://www.jensonusa.com/!GU7rsFY-j1...eplacement-Cog

The Tiagra level cassette on my commuter bike cost $30. http://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...06&category=41
I don't know the lifespan of a Rohloff cog, but it is probably longer than my cassette -- plus you can flip them. Cassette life varies depending on how diligent you are changing chains. I'd be curious to see how the cassette and cog compare.

I agree that if you don't mind the weight and the absence of STI shifters, some oddities in terms of shifting (backing off to get a gear), 14 gears instead of 18/20/22, wider steps, adding oil and cost, increased friction (not making that up; it's been measured), then it's a great system. You can shift when stopped. I assume it doesn't miss gears and sticking cables don't have the same effect (e.g. ghost shifting, etc.) It lasts forever and hoses off easier.
It probably makes a superior MTB mud bike/heavy tourer.


I think it would be good for a commuter as well, especially in hilly
terrain. Hiding the complexity of gears inside the hub makes a nice
neat solution, and likely more robust. It's not difficult to bend a
derailleur hanger even if a bike just falls over - like in a bike rack
at work. The rear derailleur isn't going to get damaged if you want to
remove the wheels and stuff the bike in the back of a car. You'll never
have the chain overshoot the biggest sprocket and jam in between the
sprocket and spokes, and you'll never get the rear derailleur caught on
a spoke (after the hanger got bent or whatever) and rip it off and take
a few spokes with it.

Yes, there are real advantages, but the price puts me off mostly, and
the extra weight a little as well - though I'd put up with that if the
price came down.

--
JS

Now that between my bike and the gym I put in I'm relatively fit again, I use my Rohloff (which was absolutely essential to get me up the hill to the house when I bought it) for recreational rides in very hilly country. But, the truth is, if you're young and fit, what Joe Riel implied is right: the 8 gears and 300 percent (and small change) of range of the Shimano 8 speed is enough. But, in my experience, you'll buy two Shimano hub gearboxes before your Rohloff is run in. A Rohloff makes the sense Jay was looking for if you're a high-miler. Otherwise it is probably an engineering indulgence. But, what the hell, you only live once, you can't take it with you, and an hour of my time is anyway worth more than the most expensive Rohloff setup.

But I can easily see that an upmarket roadie who lives in wet or otherwise adverse conditions, whose practice time is very valuable, could find it worthwhile to have a Rohloff-equipped winter practice bike. That's beyond a luxury; I could easily make a case for it as a necessity to what the insensitive Scharfie calls the "spousal unit" (you don't have to be an engineer to be insensitive, but it surely helps!).


You know what they say, Andre. A cyclist's nightmare is that when he
dies his wife sells his bikes for what he says he paid for them.

I can get away with one pretty decent road bike and escape divorce but
not two and this bike would be definitely an off season or commuter for
me. So while the engineering looks interesting I'm going to stick with
commuting on the road bike with a back pack. It's good training for the
rec rides anyway.

On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 9:12:10 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 8:14:44 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 14/04/15 03:59, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:57:08 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
SNIP

What drag and what weight? A Rohloff system complete weighs about the same as a derailleur system complete, and is between 1 and 4% less efficient than common top of the line derailleur systems, in return for which you don't have to clean it or tune it or spend constantly on replacement parts, and you can change multiple gears at once, even at standstill, a very considerable boon for utility riding. Check out the first post in this thread about maintenance saving. (Admittedly, you can get similar maintenance savings with the cheaper Shimano hub gearboxes, but they didn't last well in my hands. Note however, Dutch and continental experience, where service is available, unlike here, is different for the Shimano gearboxes.)

There is a weight penalty for a road bike -- between one and two pounds, and it's all in the back. But aside from that (which isn't meaningful for some people), I was wondering about the long-term cost savings. According to Lou, chain life for his Rohloff (no chaincase) is about the same as the chain life for his derailleur bike. Lou, correct me if I am wrong. So, you would have savings on cassettes but not necessarily chains. The next question is what is the cost/life span of a Rohloff cog.

According to that Oracle eBay, Rohloff cogs range between $32 and $54.. A Rohloff cog is $40 at JensonUSA. http://www.jensonusa.com/!GU7rsFY-j1...eplacement-Cog

The Tiagra level cassette on my commuter bike cost $30. http://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...06&category=41
I don't know the lifespan of a Rohloff cog, but it is probably longer than my cassette -- plus you can flip them. Cassette life varies depending on how diligent you are changing chains. I'd be curious to see how the cassette and cog compare.

I agree that if you don't mind the weight and the absence of STI shifters, some oddities in terms of shifting (backing off to get a gear), 14 gears instead of 18/20/22, wider steps, adding oil and cost, increased friction (not making that up; it's been measured), then it's a great system. You can shift when stopped. I assume it doesn't miss gears and sticking cables don't have the same effect (e.g. ghost shifting, etc.) It lasts forever and hoses off easier.
It probably makes a superior MTB mud bike/heavy tourer.


I think it would be good for a commuter as well, especially in hilly
terrain. Hiding the complexity of gears inside the hub makes a nice
neat solution, and likely more robust. It's not difficult to bend a
derailleur hanger even if a bike just falls over - like in a bike rack
at work. The rear derailleur isn't going to get damaged if you want to
remove the wheels and stuff the bike in the back of a car. You'll never
have the chain overshoot the biggest sprocket and jam in between the
sprocket and spokes, and you'll never get the rear derailleur caught on
a spoke (after the hanger got bent or whatever) and rip it off and take
a few spokes with it.

Yes, there are real advantages, but the price puts me off mostly, and
the extra weight a little as well - though I'd put up with that if the
price came down.

--
JS

Now that between my bike and the gym I put in I'm relatively fit again, I use my Rohloff (which was absolutely essential to get me up the hill to the house when I bought it) for recreational rides in very hilly country. But, the truth is, if you're young and fit, what Joe Riel implied is right: the 8 gears and 300 percent (and small change) of range of the Shimano 8 speed is enough. But, in my experience, you'll buy two Shimano hub gearboxes before your Rohloff is run in. A Rohloff makes the sense Jay was looking for if you're a high-miler. Otherwise it is probably an engineering indulgence. But, what the hell, you only live once, you can't take it with you, and an hour of my time is anyway worth more than the most expensive Rohloff setup..

But I can easily see that an upmarket roadie who lives in wet or otherwise adverse conditions, whose practice time is very valuable, could find it worthwhile to have a Rohloff-equipped winter practice bike. That's beyond a luxury; I could easily make a case for it as a necessity to what the insensitive Scharfie calls the "spousal unit" (you don't have to be an engineer to be insensitive, but it surely helps!).

Wearing out cassettes gives me a chance to go shopping. Why would I give that up? If you buy all this stuff that can't be modified and never wears out, where are you then? Bo-ring.

I would like to test ride a Co-motion or other high-end bike with a Rohloff hub just to see what I think of it -- and to give my more ammunition to deride people who own them. Or I might buy one and engage in self-loathing. Who knows.

Speaking of test riding, I was down in Santa Rosa last week and rented a bike to go on a ride out to the coast. Crap, man, $75 plus CA tax to rent a low-end Roubaix. That's twice what it cost me to rent a car for the day. It was actually a nice bike except for the stupid seat-post with the slipping seat carriage (even with lots of torque). Next time, I'm taking my own saddle/seat post. I'll have to convince TSA that its not a weapon. I was once detained because they were suspicious of the spoke wrench on my key chain.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 6:39:21 PM UTC+1, Duane wrote:
On 14/04/2015 12:12 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 8:14:44 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 14/04/15 03:59, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 3:57:08 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
SNIP

What drag and what weight? A Rohloff system complete weighs about the same as a derailleur system complete, and is between 1 and 4% less efficient than common top of the line derailleur systems, in return for which you don't have to clean it or tune it or spend constantly on replacement parts, and you can change multiple gears at once, even at standstill, a very considerable boon for utility riding. Check out the first post in this thread about maintenance saving. (Admittedly, you can get similar maintenance savings with the cheaper Shimano hub gearboxes, but they didn't last well in my hands. Note however, Dutch and continental experience, where service is available, unlike here, is different for the Shimano gearboxes.)

There is a weight penalty for a road bike -- between one and two pounds, and it's all in the back. But aside from that (which isn't meaningful for some people), I was wondering about the long-term cost savings. According to Lou, chain life for his Rohloff (no chaincase) is about the same as the chain life for his derailleur bike. Lou, correct me if I am wrong. So, you would have savings on cassettes but not necessarily chains. The next question is what is the cost/life span of a Rohloff cog.

According to that Oracle eBay, Rohloff cogs range between $32 and $54.. A Rohloff cog is $40 at JensonUSA. http://www.jensonusa.com/!GU7rsFY-j1...eplacement-Cog

The Tiagra level cassette on my commuter bike cost $30. http://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...06&category=41
I don't know the lifespan of a Rohloff cog, but it is probably longer than my cassette -- plus you can flip them. Cassette life varies depending on how diligent you are changing chains. I'd be curious to see how the cassette and cog compare.

I agree that if you don't mind the weight and the absence of STI shifters, some oddities in terms of shifting (backing off to get a gear), 14 gears instead of 18/20/22, wider steps, adding oil and cost, increased friction (not making that up; it's been measured), then it's a great system. You can shift when stopped. I assume it doesn't miss gears and sticking cables don't have the same effect (e.g. ghost shifting, etc.) It lasts forever and hoses off easier.
It probably makes a superior MTB mud bike/heavy tourer.


I think it would be good for a commuter as well, especially in hilly
terrain. Hiding the complexity of gears inside the hub makes a nice
neat solution, and likely more robust. It's not difficult to bend a
derailleur hanger even if a bike just falls over - like in a bike rack
at work. The rear derailleur isn't going to get damaged if you want to
remove the wheels and stuff the bike in the back of a car. You'll never
have the chain overshoot the biggest sprocket and jam in between the
sprocket and spokes, and you'll never get the rear derailleur caught on
a spoke (after the hanger got bent or whatever) and rip it off and take
a few spokes with it.

Yes, there are real advantages, but the price puts me off mostly, and
the extra weight a little as well - though I'd put up with that if the
price came down.

--
JS

Now that between my bike and the gym I put in I'm relatively fit again, I use my Rohloff (which was absolutely essential to get me up the hill to the house when I bought it) for recreational rides in very hilly country. But, the truth is, if you're young and fit, what Joe Riel implied is right: the 8 gears and 300 percent (and small change) of range of the Shimano 8 speed is enough. But, in my experience, you'll buy two Shimano hub gearboxes before your Rohloff is run in. A Rohloff makes the sense Jay was looking for if you're a high-miler. Otherwise it is probably an engineering indulgence. But, what the hell, you only live once, you can't take it with you, and an hour of my time is anyway worth more than the most expensive Rohloff setup.

But I can easily see that an upmarket roadie who lives in wet or otherwise adverse conditions, whose practice time is very valuable, could find it worthwhile to have a Rohloff-equipped winter practice bike. That's beyond a luxury; I could easily make a case for it as a necessity to what the insensitive Scharfie calls the "spousal unit" (you don't have to be an engineer to be insensitive, but it surely helps!).


You know what they say, Andre. A cyclist's nightmare is that when he
dies his wife sells his bikes for what he says he paid for them.

Laughter is good for the heart. Thanks! more than I paid for them (delivered at my door), and the third is worth about the same.

I can get away with one pretty decent road bike and escape divorce but
not two and this bike would be definitely an off season or commuter for
me. So while the engineering looks interesting I'm going to stick with
commuting on the road bike with a back pack. It's good training for the
rec rides anyway.

Anyhow, if you didn't have the excuse of cleaning the bike and tuning it, your wife might expect you to work in the garden...

Smart decision, Duane!

Andre Jute