A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Racing
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Lance – The real scandal



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 13th 13, 04:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
steve
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Lance – The real scandal

It seems to me that the real scandal is not that Lance doped but that
none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
was beating up on a bunch of innocents like Pantani, Ulrich, Basso…
Why is Riis still listed as a winner? He has admitted to doping too.
Let’s be honest he what was the best evidence that Lance was
doping? He was winning!

Further it seems to me that the leaders of the bike racing
associations and drug control are actively involved in enforcing the
“code of Silence” After Riis admitted to doping it was suggested that
there be amnesty for those that admitted to doping. I think this would
have been a great way to find out how people were getting away with
it. But no we couldn’t have that. So we get another ~10 years of
rampant doping and gosh another scandal. Do we have amnesty this time.
No we punish those that come forward. Levi is fired several Garmin
riders who admit to doping get an admitted slap on the wrist but it
certainly isn’t going to encourage anyone else to come forward. With
this head you know where approach I don’t see the problem going away.

Perhaps Lance was better at doping than most but he wasn’t beating up
on a bunch of dope free innocents. Can you name any podium finisher
from Riis through Lance and beyond that is above suspicion? I can’t.
If you consider the way the rules of the game were set up the result
is inevitable. You have to dope to win and you have a decent chance
of not getting caught. Under these rules you have to be pretty naive
to believe that nobody will dope. This is a classic Prisoners
Dilemma. Sure everyone would be better if nobody doped but that is not
what will happen. If Lance didn’t win those 7 tours because he cheated
(and I agree he did) some other doper would have.


Ads
  #2  
Old May 13th 13, 08:05 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Anton Berlin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,381
Default Lance – The real scandal

They've all been doping for a long long time. Indurain, Roche, Lemond
with the blood boosting etc - keep going back and you may find a clean
TdF rider that won. Not sure when but there might be one.
  #3  
Old May 14th 13, 02:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
raamman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 634
Default Lance – The real scandal

On May 13, 11:04*am, steve wrote:
It seems to me that the real scandal is not that Lance doped but that
none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
was beating up on a bunch of innocents like Pantani, Ulrich, Basso…
Why is Riis still listed as a winner? He has admitted to doping too.


resign in disgrace ie comfortably retire

cannot assume guilt and complicity in order to proceede with
appropiate penalty, but the extremely slow pace of investigation
mirrors that of death camp nazi guards

what is the importance of prosecuting complicity in sporting fraud
compared to other criminal activities ?

put it context, bike racing is an entertainment~ are you upset the
great wizard of oz was just a funny little man operating some levers
behind the curtain ? theres more important things in this world that
deserves attention
  #4  
Old May 18th 13, 02:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
steve
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Lance – The real scandal

On May 13, 6:28*pm, raamman wrote:
On May 13, 11:04*am, steve wrote:

It seems to me that the real scandal is not that Lance doped but that
none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
was beating up on a bunch of innocents like Pantani, Ulrich, Basso…
Why is Riis still listed as a winner? He has admitted to doping too.


resign in disgrace ie comfortably retire

cannot assume guilt and complicity in order to proceede with
appropiate penalty, but the extremely slow pace of investigation
mirrors that of death camp nazi guards

what is the importance of prosecuting complicity in sporting fraud
compared to other criminal activities ?

put it context, bike racing is an entertainment~ are you upset the
great wizard of oz was just a funny little man operating some levers
behind the curtain ? theres more important things in this world that
deserves attention


An interesting story in Velo news about Vaughetrs and Armstrong. Just
one "" from Vaughters.

“I think it’s inappropriate for anyone who was involved to take swings
at Lance. The information inside the sport was available and ready for
anyone to listen to, so it’s a little bit ridiculous to shield
yourself and your own image and lay it on Lance. The leadership of the
sport needs to take responsibility and say, ‘Yes, behind closed doors,
we knew what was up, and we failed to prevent it.’ There needs to be
clear and drastic changes to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
Instead you get rhetoric that just blames one person. It’s unfair, the
perception that Lance is the one that started the [doping] arms race.
He may have perfected it, and he went way too far in defending his
position, and he hurt a lot of people in process, but the culture was
in place before he ever raced in Europe.”


To me the real scandal is that the likes of Jean-Marie Leblanc or Pat
McQuaid haven't been forced out in disgrace is the real scandal. They
had to know what was going on in the sport.

  #5  
Old May 19th 13, 10:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Fred Flintstein
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,038
Default Lance – The real scandal

On 5/18/2013 8:04 AM, steve wrote:
On May 13, 6:28 pm, raamman wrote:
On May 13, 11:04 am, steve wrote:

It seems to me that the real scandal is not that Lance doped but that
none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
was beating up on a bunch of innocents like Pantani, Ulrich, Basso…
Why is Riis still listed as a winner? He has admitted to doping too.


resign in disgrace ie comfortably retire

cannot assume guilt and complicity in order to proceede with
appropiate penalty, but the extremely slow pace of investigation
mirrors that of death camp nazi guards

what is the importance of prosecuting complicity in sporting fraud
compared to other criminal activities ?

put it context, bike racing is an entertainment~ are you upset the
great wizard of oz was just a funny little man operating some levers
behind the curtain ? theres more important things in this world that
deserves attention


An interesting story in Velo news about Vaughetrs and Armstrong. Just
one "" from Vaughters.

“I think it’s inappropriate for anyone who was involved to take swings
at Lance. The information inside the sport was available and ready for
anyone to listen to, so it’s a little bit ridiculous to shield
yourself and your own image and lay it on Lance. The leadership of the
sport needs to take responsibility and say, ‘Yes, behind closed doors,
we knew what was up, and we failed to prevent it.’ There needs to be
clear and drastic changes to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
Instead you get rhetoric that just blames one person. It’s unfair, the
perception that Lance is the one that started the [doping] arms race.
He may have perfected it, and he went way too far in defending his
position, and he hurt a lot of people in process, but the culture was
in place before he ever raced in Europe.”


To me the real scandal is that the likes of Jean-Marie Leblanc or Pat
McQuaid haven't been forced out in disgrace is the real scandal. They
had to know what was going on in the sport.


Everyone that was paying attention knew what was going on. The fans
demand two things:

- Riders that are lit up like Christmas trees so they can do jaw
dropping stuff in races.
- Plausible deniability so they don't have to think too hard about
how the first part happens.

Tennis has this. Football (Gridiron and soccer) have this. The NBA
has it. Cycling doesn't have it because cycling is run by morons.

Cycling needs someone like Pete Rozelle, who was not a moron and
who saw revenues from his sport skyrocket when he was in charge.

F
  #6  
Old May 20th 13, 03:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
steve
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Lance – The real scandal

On May 19, 2:55*pm, Fred Flintstein
wrote:
On 5/18/2013 8:04 AM, steve wrote:









On May 13, 6:28 pm, raamman wrote:
On May 13, 11:04 am, steve wrote:


It seems to me that the real scandal is not that Lance doped but that
none of the leaders of WADA, UCI or any other organization involved in
racing and dope control has resigned in disgrace. These people had to
know. If fact some took some pretty suspicious payments. Yet all we
hear from them are self serving statements about what a terrible thing
Lance did. And the press is no better they make it sound like Lance
was beating up on a bunch of innocents like Pantani, Ulrich, Basso
Why is Riis still listed as a winner? He has admitted to doping too.


resign in disgrace ie comfortably retire


cannot assume guilt and complicity in order to proceede with
appropiate penalty, but the extremely slow pace of investigation
mirrors that of death camp nazi guards


what is the importance of prosecuting complicity in sporting fraud
compared to other criminal activities ?


put it context, bike racing is an entertainment~ are you upset the
great wizard of oz was just a funny little man operating some levers
behind the curtain ? theres more important things in this world that
deserves attention


An interesting story in Velo news about Vaughetrs and Armstrong. Just
one "" from Vaughters.


I think it s inappropriate for anyone who was involved to take swings
at Lance. The information inside the sport was available and ready for
anyone to listen to, so it s a little bit ridiculous to shield
yourself and your own image and lay it on Lance. The leadership of the
sport needs to take responsibility and say, Yes, behind closed doors,
we knew what was up, and we failed to prevent it. There needs to be
clear and drastic changes to make sure it doesn t happen again.
Instead you get rhetoric that just blames one person. It s unfair, the
perception that Lance is the one that started the [doping] arms race.
He may have perfected it, and he went way too far in defending his
position, and he hurt a lot of people in process, but the culture was
in place before he ever raced in Europe.


To me the real scandal is that the likes of Jean-Marie Leblanc or Pat
McQuaid haven't been forced out in disgrace is the real scandal. They
had to know what was going on in the sport.


Everyone that was paying attention knew what was going on. The fans
demand two things:



Exactly but they all keep making holier than than thou statements like
Lance was the only one doping and gosh I just didn't know.

- Riders that are lit up like Christmas trees so they can do jaw
dropping stuff in races.


I don't agree. What I think people want is competition.You can't
really that a racer is going a few KPH faster but you can see pain and
effort and feel the excitement as athletes give it their all to gain a
few seconds.

- Plausible deniability so they don't have to think too hard about
how the first part happens.


As far as I'm concerned the plausibility of the denial isn't really
there.
  #7  
Old May 20th 13, 05:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Fred Flintstein
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,038
Default Lance – The real scandal

On 5/19/2013 9:38 PM, steve wrote:
On May 19, 2:55 pm, Fred Flintstein
wrote:

Everyone that was paying attention knew what was going on. The fans
demand two things:



Exactly but they all keep making holier than than thou statements like
Lance was the only one doping and gosh I just didn't know.

- Riders that are lit up like Christmas trees so they can do jaw
dropping stuff in races.


I don't agree. What I think people want is competition.You can't
really that a racer is going a few KPH faster but you can see pain and
effort and feel the excitement as athletes give it their all to gain a
few seconds.


I suppose next you will argue that the sun doesn't rise in the east.

Bike racing fans want what tennis fans want. Which is what baseball
fans want. Which is what football, soccer, and basketball fans want.
They only get upset if you tell them the details. All these sports
reach the same conclusion about what the fans are asking of their
athletes.

We are much better off appreciating sport for what it is rather than
what we might wish it was. Less disappointment that way.

F

PS The testing sucks. So really, there is no way to get from where we
are to where you would like everything to be.
  #8  
Old May 20th 13, 06:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
steve
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 70
Default Lance – The real scandal

On May 20, 9:38*am, Fred Flintstein
wrote:
On 5/19/2013 9:38 PM, steve wrote:









On May 19, 2:55 pm, Fred Flintstein
wrote:


Everyone that was paying attention knew what was going on. The fans
demand two things:


Exactly but they all keep making holier than than thou statements like
Lance was the only one doping and gosh I just didn't know.


- Riders that are lit up like Christmas trees so they can do jaw
dropping stuff in races.


I don't agree. What I think people want is competition.You can't
really that a racer is going a few KPH faster but you can see pain and
effort and feel the excitement as athletes give it their all to gain a
few seconds.


I suppose next you will argue that the sun doesn't rise in the east.

Bike racing fans want what tennis fans want. Which is what baseball
fans want. Which is what football, soccer, and basketball fans want.
They only get upset if you tell them the details. All these sports
reach the same conclusion about what the fans are asking of their
athletes.

We are much better off appreciating sport for what it is rather than
what we might wish it was. Less disappointment that way.

F

PS The testing sucks. So really, there is no way to get from where we
are to where you would like everything to be.


I think you misunderstand me.

I think in bike racing and running too what I want to see and I think
other do too is to see is athletes laying it all on the line for a
win. I can't tell watching a race if there are going slightly faster
until I see the time. Maybe baseball is different in that people want
more home runs.

I know the testing sucks and because of that I would prefer to see the
limits set by what can be detected. What we have now is the dishonest
situation where everyone if forced to use PEDs to compete and then to
lie about using them. Then teams and others involved make statements
about have a clean team and a no tolerance policy knowing full well
that the riders are using PEDs. The big losers in this situation are
the riders who are forced to use PEDs to compete, to lie about using
them and then risk getting caught and fired by the team that knew
exactly what was going on.

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why Lance Is The Way He Is - The Real Story Zenon Racing 0 January 8th 11 12:29 AM
Tour de Fiasco! Latest Dope Scandal Lends More Credence To LANCE ARMSTRONG Cheating Charges! Lil Obwon Racing 12 August 1st 07 05:43 AM
The real scandal benjo maso Racing 44 August 7th 06 12:14 PM
Lance's Doping Scandal DJ Australia 45 June 3rd 06 01:35 PM
Lance's Doping Scandal rooman Australia 0 June 1st 06 05:03 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.