if you wanted maximum braking, where would you sit?

ZeeExSixAre wrote:
That's just because you've defined effective as "easily able to stop as
quickly as possible" rather than "easily able to brake so hard I can kill
myself." What on earth are you thinking?
I believe it's because he might not exhibit the kind of control that a
trials rider such as myself might have.

As we know, road cycling in traffic rarely demands that one stop with any
urgency... wait, no...

Anyone can stop more quickly on
V-brakes with flat bars than a road bike with drop bars, with 10 minutes of
practice and instruction on body positioning.

How can one stop faster than lifting the rear wheel?
--
David Damerell Distortion Field!

ZeeExSixAre wrote:
Dry tarmac coated with dust or gravel? Otherwise I find it hard to
believe. A panic snatch on my bikes will result in me going over the
bars.
Try it sometime on a MTB with good V-brakes or disc brakes.

I think the issue here is tyres with poor traction, not brake design at
all. With proper road tyres you will have greater braking available.
--
David Damerell Distortion Field!

(Pete Cresswell) wrote:
As has been continually pointed out, those of us on road bikes with drop
bars can easily brake hard enough to raise the rear wheel. You can't stop
more quickly than that -- at least not by braking harder.
Even with somebody's butt hanging back over the rear axle?

Partly I suspect this serves to compensate for the larger CoG/contact
point/ground angle caused by a shorter wheelbase and more upright
position.

If we are to believe some of the posters in this thread the limiting
factor on MTBs is actually tyre traction, so they may not get as much
braking as a naive examination of the geometry would suggest.
--
David Damerell Distortion Field!

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:30:28 -0800, Benjamin Lewis
wrote:
wrote:
trials rider such as myself might have. Anyone can stop more quickly on
V-brakes with flat bars than a road bike with drop bars, with 10 minutes
of practice and instruction on body positioning.

As has been continually pointed out, those of us on road bikes with drop
bars can easily brake hard enough to raise the rear wheel. You can't stop
more quickly than that -- at least not by braking harder.

Right, but a mtb has different geometry than a road bike, allowing
you to transfer your CG further back (and lower), so the amount of
braking force available before raising the rear wheel is more. Given
the same pavement and rider (and speed, etc), a MTB with slicks can
probably be stopped in a shorter distance.

That all said, I can stop as short as I've ever wanted to on my road
bike.
--
Rick Onanian

On 14 Jan 2004 15:14:08 +0000 (GMT), David Damerell
wrote:
Anyone can stop more quickly on
V-brakes with flat bars than a road bike with drop bars, with 10 minutes of
practice and instruction on body positioning.

How can one stop faster than lifting the rear wheel?

By lifting the rear wheel with different geometry and set-up
(handlebars, wheels, saddle height) which allows the rider to
achieve a lower, more rearward CG.

My MTB is longer than my road bike, I sit farther back, I can get
behind the saddle easier, and I can get my butt lower due to the
smaller wheels. The CG probably gets lower as a result of nose dive
in suspended MTBs, although FS models might have zero net effect if
the rear suspension lifts by as much as the front lowers.
--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:30:28 -0800, Benjamin Lewis
wrote:
wrote:
trials rider such as myself might have. Anyone can stop more quickly
on V-brakes with flat bars than a road bike with drop bars, with 10
minutes of practice and instruction on body positioning.

As has been continually pointed out, those of us on road bikes with drop
bars can easily brake hard enough to raise the rear wheel. You can't
stop more quickly than that -- at least not by braking harder.

Right, but a mtb has different geometry than a road bike, allowing
you to transfer your CG further back (and lower), so the amount of
braking force available before raising the rear wheel is more. Given
the same pavement and rider (and speed, etc), a MTB with slicks can
probably be stopped in a shorter distance.

Even if this is the case, it's not because the MTB has better brakes. You
can still do the same thing on a MTB equipped with cantilevers.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Accordion, n.:
A bagpipe with pleats.

wrote:

RE/
As has been continually pointed out, those of us on road bikes with drop
bars can easily brake hard enough to raise the rear wheel. You can't
stop more quickly than that -- at least not by braking harder.

Even with somebody's butt hanging back over the rear axle?

You may be able to stop faster with different bike/rider geometry, but even
taking that into account, road bike brakes are powerful enough to lift the
rear wheel. Things may be different with tandems or recumbents; I have no
experience with these.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Accordion, n.:
A bagpipe with pleats.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:01:37 -0800, Benjamin Lewis
wrote:
Rick Onanian wrote:
wrote:
trials rider such as myself might have. Anyone can stop more quickly
on V-brakes with flat bars than a road bike with drop bars, with 10
minutes of practice and instruction on body positioning.

Right, but a mtb has different geometry than a road bike, allowing

Even if this is the case, it's not because the MTB has better brakes. You
can still do the same thing on a MTB equipped with cantilevers.

Was Phil implying anything about power available from any given type
of brakes? I thought he was just referring to the issue with the CG
on which I elaborated.
--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:01:37 -0800, Benjamin Lewis
wrote:
Rick Onanian wrote:
wrote:
trials rider such as myself might have. Anyone can stop more quickly
on V-brakes with flat bars than a road bike with drop bars, with 10
minutes of practice and instruction on body positioning.

Right, but a mtb has different geometry than a road bike, allowing

Even if this is the case, it's not because the MTB has better brakes.
You can still do the same thing on a MTB equipped with cantilevers.

Was Phil implying anything about power available from any given type
of brakes? I thought he was just referring to the issue with the CG
on which I elaborated.

Maybe he wasn't, but then why mention V-brakes?

--
Benjamin Lewis

Accordion, n.:
A bagpipe with pleats.

Rick Onanian:

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:30:28 -0800, Benjamin Lewis
wrote:
wrote:
trials rider such as myself might have. Anyone can stop more quickly on
V-brakes with flat bars than a road bike with drop bars, with 10 minutes
of practice and instruction on body positioning.

As has been continually pointed out, those of us on road bikes with drop
bars can easily brake hard enough to raise the rear wheel. You can't stop
more quickly than that -- at least not by braking harder.

Right, but a mtb has different geometry than a road bike, allowing
you to transfer your CG further back (and lower), so the amount of
braking force available before raising the rear wheel is more. Given
the same pavement and rider (and speed, etc), a MTB with slicks can
probably be stopped in a shorter distance.

Once again we are privvy to Onanian's loopy version of reality.
Geometry of bike type plays a lot less importance than geometry of bike,
period. A cyclist can achieve the same shift in CG on a road bike as on
a mountain bike, because it depends on the measurements of the bike only
as related to the rider's body measurements. To make that as simple as
possible, the ability to shift one's behind further back depends on the
rider's reach to the handlebars.

That all said, I can stop as short as I've ever wanted to on my road
bike.

Thereby contradicting what he previously stated. Picture a dog chasing
its own tail...