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  #31  
Old January 11th 18, 10:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 8,722
Default handlebar

On Thursday, January 11, 2018 at 8:34:47 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/11/2018 12:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/11/2018 12:31 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/11/2018 9:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/11/2018 5:57 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 4:46:01 PM UTC, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

But unlike aluminum ones, stainless steel bars are
very rare, if not nonexistent.

Just because your weight-weenie, replace after one season
or die, racer LBS
doesn't carry them? Chances are it doesn't offer full
Joergian-strength
cromo bars either.

Here in America, aluminum seems to be the default material
for handlebars on any adult bike above department store
quality. Steel handlebars are typically found on budget
bikes. There are some steel handlebars available for higher
quality bikes, but I don't recall ever seeing or hearing of
a set made of stainless steel.

The aluminum upright bars I bought came from a bike shop in
a major city selling a wide variety of good bikes, including
(for example) a very sweet Bianchi city bike that I
test-rode. The bars cost me $7 on sale. They have been on
the city bike I built for perhaps five years now. I've not
replaced them this season or any other season, and I doubt I
ever will; and I very much doubt that they'll kill me.

A few shapes I remember Utopia offers, or at least used to
offer, in
stainless steel aren't in ergotec's 2018 issue. They
might slowly get
replaced by "MAS-Nb" steel. But it still shows some.

Jute claimed aluminum ones were "specialty items." Which are
more common in the catalog - stainless steel or aluminum?



British made Raleigh Sports had the original chromed steel
North Road handlebar and the Raleigh Sprite came with the
All Rounder shape also in chromed steel. These were both
high volume popular models and much copied for many years
after their demise.


But only very rarely in _stainless_ steel, AFAIK.

And it raises the question: Why would someone choose to
manufacture or to buy a _stainless_ steel handlebar? What
would be the practical advantage over chromed steel?



At least in USA for the past 50 years, stainless is
vanishingly rare for bicycle handlebars. Given chinese
character and business practices generally, I would fully
expect a 'stainless' handlebar to be mild steel with UCP plate.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Your prejudice is showing, Miss Muzi, and your slip too, I expect. Anyhow, if a Chinese manufacturer or wholesaler tells you it is stainless steel and sends you mild steel instead, Alibaba and Aliexpress give your money back. Alibaba & Aliexpress hold your money until you explicitly signal acceptance of the goods, and the supplier only gets the money when you are satisfied.. Where can you get better terms than that?

Andre Jute
I have joined the 21st century. Have you?
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  #32  
Old January 11th 18, 10:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,722
Default handlebar

On Thursday, January 11, 2018 at 6:10:19 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And it raises the question: Why would someone choose to manufacture or
to buy a _stainless_ steel handlebar? What would be the practical
advantage over chromed steel?

- Frank Krygowski


Dumb question, especially from an American. I used to be a hotrodder (I turned old Bentley saloons into sports cars) and I remember the British hotrodders of humbler cars recoiling in horror from examples of American chrome plating.

The answer to your question, dear Franki-boy, is that stainless steel is rustproof and chrome-plating, unless expensively layered on sequential copper and nickel deposits, generally is not rustproof. A single pinhole in the chrome and you've wasted your money. That in turn makes for very expensive preparation of the steel before plating, if it is to be done right. Stainless can actually be cheaper. BTW, once copper and nickel have been deposited, there is no need for chrome, because nickel is rustproof and polishes up beautiful. Bentleys and Rolls, back in the days when they were sold to people of taste, had no chrome bling, just polished nickel.

Also, and I am very surprised that someone who claims to be a superannuated "professor" of engineering doesn't know this, chrome plating often raises stresses in materials. I, for one, would never in a million years drive a car with chrome plated suspension parts, or have a chrome-plated handlebar on my bike.

Andre Jute
Why are there so many know-it-all idiots in cycling?
  #33  
Old January 11th 18, 11:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,722
Default handlebar

There's a short version for this piece of crap from Frank Krygowski, which I have already given. Franki-boy sez:

"It didn't happen on my street corner so it can't be true."

What a provincial idiot, and a xenophobe besides.

Andre Jute
Weren't the Wright brothers Ohio bicycle builders? God, the shame of their heritage in Frank Krygowski's hands.

On Thursday, January 11, 2018 at 3:13:08 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/11/2018 5:57 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 4:46:01 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But unlike aluminum ones, stainless steel bars are
very rare, if not nonexistent.


Just because your weight-weenie, replace after one season or die, racer LBS
doesn't carry them? Chances are it doesn't offer full Joergian-strength
cromo bars either.


Here in America, aluminum seems to be the default material for
handlebars on any adult bike above department store quality. Steel
handlebars are typically found on budget bikes. There are some steel
handlebars available for higher quality bikes, but I don't recall ever
seeing or hearing of a set made of stainless steel.

The aluminum upright bars I bought came from a bike shop in a major city
selling a wide variety of good bikes, including (for example) a very
sweet Bianchi city bike that I test-rode. The bars cost me $7 on sale.
They have been on the city bike I built for perhaps five years now. I've
not replaced them this season or any other season, and I doubt I ever
will; and I very much doubt that they'll kill me.

A few shapes I remember Utopia offers, or at least used to offer, in
stainless steel aren't in ergotec's 2018 issue. They might slowly get
replaced by "MAS-Nb" steel. But it still shows some.


Jute claimed aluminum ones were "specialty items." Which are more common
in the catalog - stainless steel or aluminum?


--
- Frank Krygowski

  #34  
Old January 11th 18, 11:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,722
Default handlebar

On Thursday, January 11, 2018 at 10:57:36 AM UTC, Sepp Ruf wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 4:46:01 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But unlike aluminum ones, stainless steel bars are
very rare, if not nonexistent.


Just because your weight-weenie, replace after one season or die, racer LBS
doesn't carry them? Chances are it doesn't offer full Joergian-strength
cromo bars either.

I chuckled at your "non-existent" stainless steel bars. It's so dumb,
nobody will believe it. I have two stainless steel handlebars on bikes in
the loft, and probably more in boxes of components. One I chose from the
Humpert catalogue to be fitted to my Utopia Kranich as a temporary measure
just to see how I liked something different from my normal North Road Bars.
In Europe Humpert bars are the mainstream for upscale bikes, and they're
nutters for testing components. If they list stainless bars, you may be
absolutely certain there is nothing wrong with stainless bars.

You should check your facts, Franki-boy.
Andre Jute
Always happy to help

PS The Humpert catalogue also comes in English


http://ergotec.de/files/service/downloads/Humpert-Katalog_2018.pdf

A few shapes I remember Utopia offers, or at least used to offer, in
stainless steel aren't in ergotec's 2018 issue. They might slowly get
replaced by "MAS-Nb" steel. But it still shows some.


Back in 2008 the standard fitment to the Utopia Kranich was the Tour Nirosta (German for stainless), and the most popular options were the Sport, NSU and Cruiser, all stainless, all with Nirosta in the name, for a mickey mouse uncharge. Plain steel wasn't listed at all, though you could probably have had it fitted if you asked nicely; if you knew what you wanted, you could have anything as long as it was made by a reputable German company, which suits me fine. The funny thing is that you got the stainless Tour in the price, but the uncharge for an ali Tour was nearly three times as much as the stainless options. There were also four fancy ali bars at various uncharges. All these bars were from Humpert. I seem to remember that one of my stainless bars, all of them from Humpert, is called Manheim.

Currently it would seem from their catalogue that Humpert is largely going over to a steel alloy, MAS-Nb as you have it, that they have tested extensively and are making a big thing of, with a section to itself in their catalogue.

I love Humpert components, but I doubt that the weight weenie roadies will. Even a Swiss stem with locking weighs less than the Humpert Xstacy adjustable stem I had on the bike until I tuned in my position to the millimeter. Humpert gear is made to leave to your grandchildren. Also, Humpert engineers have respect for history, so there's nothing "boutique" about their gear; for instance, their best headset is an exact copy, made for them by Cane Creek, of the Cane Creek headset that started the Aheadset standard now almost universal. It came standard on my Kranich, and is absolutely superb, very good value too, I believe, though that is probably irrelevant as I cannot see myself ever needing to replace it.

It's not that I'm a particular fan of stainless steel bars -- I was just correcting that idiot Krygowski -- but that I'm a fan of Humpert. If they ever make a North Road Bar with the width and rise and sweep I require, I'll fit in in whatever steel alloy they are confident enough to make it.

Andre Jute
Respect of sound engineering
  #35  
Old January 12th 18, 01:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,015
Default handlebar

Duane wrote:

What are is your interest in the material?
Weight? Strength? Rust?


To understand why I hear all the time they
break while my intuition tells me this has
never been even close to happening to me.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #36  
Old January 12th 18, 01:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,722
Default handlebar

On Thursday, January 11, 2018 at 10:30:32 PM UTC, wrote:

Anybody with some knowledge can tell the difference between a stainless steel handlebar or a aluminum handlebar without a magnet. Trust me your bikes don't have a stainless steel handlebar. What is the purpose of your silly questions? Oh never mind...

Lou


The purpose of the internet sometimes seems to be to keep the thread going ad infinitum.

Mind you, as in this thread, I'm delighted to have the opportunity to kick Krygowski in the goolies over and over again. He's a real slow learner.

Andre Jute
Mildly entertained
  #37  
Old January 12th 18, 01:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,015
Default handlebar

lou.holtman wrote:

Anybody with some knowledge can tell the
difference between a stainless steel
handlebar or a aluminum handlebar without
a magnet.


Here, we are not concerned with anyone's
shamanism based on "some knowledge", I'm
looking for a method that will *tell*.

And if there isn't one, fine.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #38  
Old January 12th 18, 01:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,015
Default DIY China (was: handlebar)

Andre Jute wrote:

As for value, the Chinese offer superb value
to those who know what they want and how to
evaluate it. Much of what you buy in America
under familiar brand names is made in China.


Here, virtually all tools sold are made in
China (i.e., the PRC). I have a torque wrench
that is also made in China, only in Taiwan.
I also have a (new) revolving punch that is
made in Germany. Other than that, all my
Swedish tools (e.g., Bacho), German
tools (Heyco), Japanese tools, socialist Poland
tools, etc., are old, from the
"pre-China" period.

Also clothes are often, but not always, made in
the PRC. HH, the famous Norwegian brand of
winter clothes, have there stuff made there, as
do many, many others.

Even tho they seem to make all the stuff for
the western contractors and DIYers alike, one
thing I wonder is how much of a DIY culture
they themselves have?

My father, who has a Chinese wife, told me
about their shopping palaces and how shopping
is the key pass-time for people there.
And apparently the biggest building in the
world isn't the Pentagon like in the 50s but
a Chinese mall! So I asked him if he could get
tools as well? And he said he never saw any!

And I have met many Chinese people during my
computer years at the university and by the
look of their bodies and they way they carry
them around, compared to westerners - N.B.
also university people - from the looks of it
the Chinese guys and girls never used a hand
tools or did any physical labor whatsoever,
and some of them, surprisingly, I don't think
ever did any sports or dancing or
whatever either.

Obviously their skill of manufacturing stuff is
beyond doubt, but I wonder if it is limited to
the people doing it, and not a reflection of
their entire society as it was during the
European/American industrial era?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #39  
Old January 12th 18, 02:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,015
Default handlebar

Andre Jute wrote:

The purpose of the internet sometimes seems
to be to keep the thread going ad infinitum.


Well, there is no purpose of doing, or not
doing, anything. How old is the universe?
~13.8*10^9y?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #40  
Old January 12th 18, 02:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,271
Default DIY China

On 1/11/2018 8:54 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

As for value, the Chinese offer superb value
to those who know what they want and how to
evaluate it. Much of what you buy in America
under familiar brand names is made in China.


Here, virtually all tools sold are made in
China (i.e., the PRC). I have a torque wrench
that is also made in China, only in Taiwan.
I also have a (new) revolving punch that is
made in Germany. Other than that, all my
Swedish tools (e.g., Bacho), German
tools (Heyco), Japanese tools, socialist Poland
tools, etc., are old, from the
"pre-China" period.

Also clothes are often, but not always, made in
the PRC. HH, the famous Norwegian brand of
winter clothes, have there stuff made there, as
do many, many others.

Even tho they seem to make all the stuff for
the western contractors and DIYers alike, one
thing I wonder is how much of a DIY culture
they themselves have?

My father, who has a Chinese wife, told me
about their shopping palaces and how shopping
is the key pass-time for people there.
And apparently the biggest building in the
world isn't the Pentagon like in the 50s but
a Chinese mall! So I asked him if he could get
tools as well? And he said he never saw any!

And I have met many Chinese people during my
computer years at the university and by the
look of their bodies and they way they carry
them around, compared to westerners - N.B.
also university people - from the looks of it
the Chinese guys and girls never used a hand
tools or did any physical labor whatsoever,
and some of them, surprisingly, I don't think
ever did any sports or dancing or
whatever either.

Obviously their skill of manufacturing stuff is
beyond doubt, but I wonder if it is limited to
the people doing it, and not a reflection of
their entire society as it was during the
European/American industrial era?


There are some interesting ideas about the evolution of a nation's
manufacturing capability at http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano333.html

Start reading at "Background: The International Bicycle Cycle"

The author seems to have the opinion that the skill in manufacturing is
not inborn, but is brought in by companies from other countries looking
for cheaper labor and cheaper manufacturing in general. I think that's a
reasonable explanation for China's manufacturing growth.


--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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