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Carbo loading before a race?



 
 
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  #41  
Old May 13th 04, 01:11 PM
DRS
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Default Carbo loading before a race?

"Roger Zoul" wrote in message

DRS wrote:


[...]

Er, no. Weight loss only occurs when energy out energy in. The
reason Atkins and similar diets work is primarily because high
protein diets suppress appetite more than other kinds, so even
though people are theoretically allowed to eat as much as they want
(within reason) they simply end up reducing their calorific intake
below their maintenance levels naturally.


Atkins is not a high protein diet...it is a high fat diet. The lack
of carbs is what suppresses appetite, not protein.


Er, no. It's been clinically demonstrated that it's the high protein that
suppresses the appetite. High fats actually increase the appetite.

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  #42  
Old May 13th 04, 01:41 PM
Roger Zoul
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Default Carbo loading before a race?

DRS wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote in message
::
::: DRS wrote:
::
:: [...]
::
::::: Er, no. Weight loss only occurs when energy out energy in. The
::::: reason Atkins and similar diets work is primarily because high
::::: protein diets suppress appetite more than other kinds, so even
::::: though people are theoretically allowed to eat as much as they
::::: want (within reason) they simply end up reducing their calorific
::::: intake below their maintenance levels naturally.
:::
::: Atkins is not a high protein diet...it is a high fat diet. The lack
::: of carbs is what suppresses appetite, not protein.
::
:: Er, no. It's been clinically demonstrated that it's the high
:: protein that suppresses the appetite. High fats actually increase
:: the appetite.
::

No, it's been proven that protein can suppress appetite. That doesn't mean
that removing carbs doesn't suppress appetite. And Atkins is a high-fat
diet, so by your logic those people ought to be having lots of appetite.
They don't because by restricting carbs they eliminate BG swings and reduce
hunger. As a result, they lose weight because the eat fewer calories.

The benefits of protein come when its time to cease weight loss. Then you
increase carbs, lower fat, and increase protein a bit. Fat is about twice
as dense energy wise as carbs and protein. So, if you remove one gram of fat
from your diet, you can add 1 gram of carbs and protein. The extra protein
helps with appetite suppression.


  #43  
Old May 13th 04, 02:03 PM
Alexander Gilchrist
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Default Carbo loading before a race?

Anyone who makes statements like "It is a know fact..." and "It is a
know proven fact..." has already given up any reason to be taken
seriously. Even if his use of words was correct, a gratuitous assertion
can only be opinion rather than established fact. This is regardless of
what my grandfather did (he was actually owning grain elevators in Iowa)
and when he needed it, he bought the produce that the hunter/gatherers
in Eastern Iowa ca. 1890/1900s brought in. This posting is so ludicrous
as to warrent ignoring.

A solid breakfast of ham and eggs would get me about 30 miles before the
glycogens ran out and the caffeine would cause an adrenaline surge that
would bring on arrhythmia that would put me down in the middle of the
road (I am on a caffeine-free diet due to this.)

Alexander Gilchrist

  #44  
Old May 13th 04, 02:05 PM
DRS
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Default Carbo loading before a race?

"Roger Zoul" wrote in message

DRS wrote:
"Roger Zoul" wrote in message

DRS wrote:

[...]

Er, no. Weight loss only occurs when energy out energy in.
The reason Atkins and similar diets work is primarily because
high protein diets suppress appetite more than other kinds, so
even though people are theoretically allowed to eat as much as
they want (within reason) they simply end up reducing their
calorific intake below their maintenance levels naturally.

Atkins is not a high protein diet...it is a high fat diet. The
lack of carbs is what suppresses appetite, not protein.

Er, no. It's been clinically demonstrated that it's the high
protein that suppresses the appetite. High fats actually increase
the appetite.


No, it's been proven that protein can suppress appetite. That
doesn't mean that removing carbs doesn't suppress appetite. And
Atkins is a high-fat diet, so by your logic those people ought to be
having lots of appetite. They don't because by restricting carbs they
eliminate BG swings and reduce hunger. As a result, they lose weight
because the eat fewer calories.


It's restricting *simple* carbs that reduces the blood sugar swings hence
insulin levels swings hence hunger and cutting simple sugars down or even
out of your diet entirely will certainly help. But that's not what you said
(I left in what you said above). Atkins is primarily a high protein diet
and that's why it works.

The benefits of protein come when its time to cease weight loss. Then
you increase carbs, lower fat, and increase protein a bit. Fat is
about twice as dense energy wise as carbs and protein. So, if you
remove one gram of fat from your diet, you can add 1 gram of carbs
and protein. The extra protein helps with appetite suppression.


If you've done your macronutrient calculations properly you only change your
protein intake in proportion to changing LBM. Ditto for fats. That means
it's your complex carbs targets which change most between cutting and
bulking.

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  #45  
Old May 13th 04, 02:32 PM
Roger Zoul
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Default Carbo loading before a race?

DRS wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" wrote in message
::
::: DRS wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" wrote in message
:::::
:::::: DRS wrote:
:::::
::::: [...]
:::::
:::::::: Er, no. Weight loss only occurs when energy out energy in.
:::::::: The reason Atkins and similar diets work is primarily because
:::::::: high protein diets suppress appetite more than other kinds, so
:::::::: even though people are theoretically allowed to eat as much as
:::::::: they want (within reason) they simply end up reducing their
:::::::: calorific intake below their maintenance levels naturally.
::::::
:::::: Atkins is not a high protein diet...it is a high fat diet. The
:::::: lack of carbs is what suppresses appetite, not protein.
:::::
::::: Er, no. It's been clinically demonstrated that it's the high
::::: protein that suppresses the appetite. High fats actually increase
::::: the appetite.
:::
::: No, it's been proven that protein can suppress appetite. That
::: doesn't mean that removing carbs doesn't suppress appetite. And
::: Atkins is a high-fat diet, so by your logic those people ought to be
::: having lots of appetite. They don't because by restricting carbs
::: they eliminate BG swings and reduce hunger. As a result, they lose
::: weight because the eat fewer calories.
::
:: It's restricting *simple* carbs that reduces the blood sugar swings
:: hence insulin levels swings hence hunger and cutting simple sugars
:: down or even out of your diet entirely will certainly help. But
:: that's not what you said (I left in what you said above). Atkins is
:: primarily a high protein diet and that's why it works.

Atkins is not a high protein diet. That is just plain wrong. Clearly you
have no experience with it and are just talking.

And what exactly are simple carbs? If you consume enough grams of any
digestable carb, you'll get BG swings.

::
::: The benefits of protein come when its time to cease weight loss.
::: Then
::: you increase carbs, lower fat, and increase protein a bit. Fat is
::: about twice as dense energy wise as carbs and protein. So, if you
::: remove one gram of fat from your diet, you can add 1 gram of carbs
::: and protein. The extra protein helps with appetite suppression.
::
:: If you've done your macronutrient calculations properly you only
:: change your protein intake in proportion to changing LBM. Ditto for
:: fats. That means it's your complex carbs targets which change most
:: between cutting and bulking.

Who's talking about cutting and bulking right now? I was talkng about weight
loss and how one eases off that phase on Atkins..We can go over to MWF to
talk about cutting and bulking


  #46  
Old May 13th 04, 02:53 PM
Badger_South
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Default Carbo loading before a race?

On Thu, 13 May 2004 09:32:37 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
wrote:

Atkins is not a high protein diet. That is just plain wrong. Clearly you
have no experience with it and are just talking.

And what exactly are simple carbs? If you consume enough grams of any
digestable carb, you'll get BG swings.


Clearly you have experience with Atkins, or your interpretation of it. But
I don't understand what you mean when you say it's not a high protein diet?
I think the dogma is it's a low carb, higher protein, plus moderate good
fat and oils.

OTOH, there are lots of interpretations of it, and some ppl use it as an
excuse to eat lots of fatty food.

It's my impression that most ppl who make it through the induction phase
tend to stay in 'induction', i.e. eating less than 20 gm of carbs (simple,
or complex), partly b/c it reduces one's desire to eat carbs.

Those who discover they'd been 'carb addicts' are glad to discover the loss
of desire to eat carbs, b/c for them, it causes them to overeat; they can't
just eat one cookie, they have to eat 10 or the whole bag, etc. To be freed
of this compulsion is wonderful, IMO.

I try and limit the overt fat by trimming meat and keeping the bacon eating
low. Most of the fat I get is from salmon and other types of fish, or from
hamburger, which I try to get very lean.

Anyway, I think you have to take into account that even though a person
says they are on Atkins, I bet few ppl follow it rigorously, and just end
up cutting the obvious carbs and eating cheese, meat, eggs and soforth.

I'm of the opinion that I/most ppl eat about twice as much food as they
really need. When I'm really in the zone, I have salmon twice a day, and
cooked whole turkey which I slice up and portion out. In addition I'll eat
eggs, cheese, snack on nuts, and have a portion of green beans with supper.
But some days, when the appetite is down, I'll survive easily on a
hamburger patty or two. I supplement with vits and oils, of course. I still
drink 2% milk, but often drop dairy for a while if I'm making a push to
lose the next 10lbs.

The other interesting thing WRT to weight loss is I tend to lose in 10lb
surges. I'll hang out at about 230-240 for a couple weeks, then have a
whoosh and get down into the 220s, and then hang out at 220-230 for a few
weeks, and continue like that. If I look at my graph, occasionally I'll
have about a 5 lb gain just preceeding a dramatic loss of about 10 lbs.

Anyway, just wondering about your take on it.

Best,

-B


  #47  
Old May 13th 04, 02:57 PM
Badger_South
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Default Carbo loading before a race?

On Thu, 13 May 2004 09:03:30 -0400, Alexander Gilchrist
wrote:

A solid breakfast of ham and eggs would get me about 30 miles before the
glycogens ran out and the caffeine would cause an adrenaline surge that
would bring on arrhythmia that would put me down in the middle of the
road (I am on a caffeine-free diet due to this.)

Alexander Gilchrist


I think that's atypical for those eating low carb, although it's good to
know your own predilections.

On LC, I have no sensation of 'glycogens running out' whatsoever. Of course
it might take a while to get used to being on a BDK type diet like Atkins -
some ppl get headaches. I might consume some dilute fruit juice or eat a
couple M&Ms prior to a long fast ride, but that's by design, not really by
need.

-B


  #48  
Old May 13th 04, 03:18 PM
Terry Morse
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Default Carbo loading before a race?

Roger Zoul wrote:

Terry Morse wrote:
Roger Zoul wrote:

Terry Morse wrote:

Any weight loss diet is essentially a gimmick to get you to eat
fewer calories.


Not a gimmick....also, the diets aren't no-carb...

Yes, a gimmick. All diets are ruses to get people to reduce their
calorie intake. It doesn't matter what the diet is called:

no-carb,
low-carb, low-fat, asparagus, Pritiken, Atkins, South Beach. Nor
does it matter what types of food you eat. If you reduce your
calorie intake, you lose weight. Plain and simple, even if the $40
billion diet industry wants you to think otherwise.


How is eating to normalize blood sugar swings a ruse or a gimmick?


How is erecting a strawman going to help you with your argument?

I stated how diets produce *weight loss*, not how they alter your
blood chemistry. I'll try again to state this as simply as possible:
You can follow a diet designed to regulate blood sugar, or one that
restricts you to whale blubber and olives. None of the details
matter when it comes to weight loss! They are all inventions that
trick you into eating fewer calories.

Do you know what these words mean?


Yes, thank you for asking. Can you follow a simple argument?

www.dictionary.com is your friend...


Two can play the smartass game, here are some definitions:

Ruse: A crafty stratagem; a subterfuge.
Gimmick: An innovative stratagem or scheme employed especially to
promote a project.
Invention: A mental fabrication

A program that states "don't eat so damn much, eat a balanced diet,
and exercise more" would not be a ruse/gimmick/invention. But it
wouldn't grab much market share of that juicy $40 billion, now would
it?
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/
In Excelsis Escendo
  #49  
Old May 13th 04, 03:33 PM
DRS
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Default Carbo loading before a race?

"Roger Zoul" wrote in message

DRS wrote:


[...]

It's restricting *simple* carbs that reduces the blood sugar swings
hence insulin levels swings hence hunger and cutting simple sugars
down or even out of your diet entirely will certainly help. But
that's not what you said (I left in what you said above). Atkins is
primarily a high protein diet and that's why it works.


Atkins is not a high protein diet. That is just plain wrong.
Clearly you have no experience with it and are just talking.


Unlike you I actually read the books.

And what exactly are simple carbs? If you consume enough grams of any
digestable carb, you'll get BG swings.


I do hope you realise you have just shot your credibility to bits. "What is
a simple carb?" indeed! It's a sugar with one (monosaccharide) or two
(disaccharide) polymerised glucose molecules. For the record, complex carbs
are either oligosaccharides (3-20 monosaccharide links) and polysaccharides
(10 to thousands of monosaccharide links). Complex carbs do not cause blood
sugar swings.

[...]

If you've done your macronutrient calculations properly you only
change your protein intake in proportion to changing LBM. Ditto for
fats. That means it's your complex carbs targets which change most
between cutting and bulking.


Who's talking about cutting and bulking right now? I was talkng about
weight loss and how one eases off that phase on Atkins..We can go
over to MWF to talk about cutting and bulking


Cutting is cutting whether you're a cyclist or a weight-lifter.

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  #50  
Old May 13th 04, 04:17 PM
Badger_South
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Default Carbo loading before a race?

On Fri, 14 May 2004 00:33:07 +1000, "DRS"
wrote:

I do hope you realise you have just shot your credibility to bits. "What is
a simple carb?" indeed! It's a sugar with one (monosaccharide) or two
(disaccharide) polymerised glucose molecules. For the record, complex carbs
are either oligosaccharides (3-20 monosaccharide links) and polysaccharides
(10 to thousands of monosaccharide links). Complex carbs do not cause blood
sugar swings.

[...]


I think we should be talking insulin here, and not blood sugar. Simple
carbs can cause a large output of insulin, complex carbs a more modulated
output. This can be a problem for people who have insulin resistance, and
may result in the nutrients being stored as fat, according to my reading.

-B


 




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