lighting requirements around the world

On 9/6/2020 6:54 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 11:43:38 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/5/2020 5:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 9:43:03 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/5/2020 11:19 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 8:23:23 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/5/2020 1:34 AM, sms wrote:
On 9/4/2020 6:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

And if the ordinance was unclear, why did the City Council pass it?

It had been on the books for decades, but not enforced. Just like the
ordinance requiring bicycle licenses. We should probably go through all
the ordinances and get rid of the ones that no longer make sense, but
that would be a huge expensive effort.

...
Having to deal with this kind of petty stuff is maddening but I think
that in most cities there are a just a few people that cause the most
work for City Staff, and cost the most money, with their antics. Just
looking into the sign ordinance probably cost us $3000 of attorney time
since we contract out those services.

I don't see how rescinding bad or outmoded ordinances has to involve
thousands of dollars of attorney time.

I read our village ordinances and found that there were around a dozen
terrible bicycle ordinances, such as requiring cyclists to ride on
sidewalks, forcing cyclists to walk across certain intersections,
prohibitions against children cycling, etc.

I wrote a white paper briefly explaining how these were detrimental and
how they violated state law. (Ohio law prohibits ordinances that
fundamentally disagree with Ohio traffic laws.) After meeting with the
president of Council I mailed that paper to the mayor, the council
members and the village solicitor, who was a genuine lawyer.

The solicitor reacted most strongly, saying "We need to repeal these as
an emergency measure!" The ordinances were repealed immediately. Cost to
the village was zero.

Solicitor? I have a sign on my door saying no solicitors.

As you know, an emergency measure is just out of cycle legislation or legislation with an earlier effective date. Emergencies get declared all the time to move up the effective date of legislation.

You're lucky when you can just clear out the junk -- like a whole chapter on placement and operation of telegraph offices. Most of the time, you have to replace the chapter with something new. Coming up with something new means: (1) stealing from another state/jurisdiction/model act, etc., or (2) drafting something new. New stuff is a lot of work and has unintended consequences 50% of the time. It can be time consuming. I'm sure the City of Cupertino would want only the finest, custom built ordinances.

-- Jay Beattie.







Municipalities employ (or retain) Solicitors or Corporation
Counsel (or what have you, depending on local parlance).
Heck the US of A has a Solicitor General. It's not an
unusual term.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I know -- in the US, "solicitor" is one of the many dopey equity/law hang-over terms. I'm a proctor in Admiralty, not to be confused with a proctologist.

Around here, some lawyers write "Esq." after their names. Its comes
across as a pompous affectation.

Sort of like "PE"?

Nope. As previously explained, PE is a specially earned qualification
far beyond what's required to complete an engineering degree. Many
degreed engineers can't attain it even if they try.

An engineer falsely claiming to be a licensed PE is in line for some
fairly serious legal problems.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 20:34:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/6/2020 7:05 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 12:08:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/6/2020 11:58 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2020 10:43 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/5/2020 5:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 9:43:03 AM UTC-7, AMuzi
wrote:
On 9/5/2020 11:19 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 8:23:23 AM UTC-7,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/5/2020 1:34 AM, sms wrote:
On 9/4/2020 6:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

And if the ordinance was unclear, why did the City
Council pass it?

It had been on the books for decades, but not
enforced. Just like the
ordinance requiring bicycle licenses. We should
probably go through all
the ordinances and get rid of the ones that no longer
make sense, but
that would be a huge expensive effort.

...
Having to deal with this kind of petty stuff is
maddening but I think
that in most cities there are a just a few people that
cause the most
work for City Staff, and cost the most money, with
their antics. Just
looking into the sign ordinance probably cost us $3000
of attorney time
since we contract out those services.

I don't see how rescinding bad or outmoded ordinances
has to involve
thousands of dollars of attorney time.

I read our village ordinances and found that there were
around a dozen
terrible bicycle ordinances, such as requiring cyclists
to ride on
sidewalks, forcing cyclists to walk across certain
intersections,
prohibitions against children cycling, etc.

I wrote a white paper briefly explaining how these were
detrimental and
how they violated state law. (Ohio law prohibits
ordinances that
fundamentally disagree with Ohio traffic laws.) After
meeting with the
president of Council I mailed that paper to the mayor,
the council
members and the village solicitor, who was a genuine
lawyer.

The solicitor reacted most strongly, saying "We need to
repeal these as
an emergency measure!" The ordinances were repealed
immediately. Cost to
the village was zero.

Solicitor? I have a sign on my door saying no solicitors.

As you know, an emergency measure is just out of cycle
legislation or legislation with an earlier effective
date. Emergencies get declared all the time to move up
the effective date of legislation.

You're lucky when you can just clear out the junk --
like a whole chapter on placement and operation of
telegraph offices.* Most of the time, you have to
replace the chapter with something new. Coming up with
something new means: (1) stealing from another
state/jurisdiction/model act, etc., or (2) drafting
something new. New stuff is a lot of work and has
unintended consequences 50% of the time. It can be time
consuming. I'm sure the City of Cupertino would want
only the finest, custom built ordinances.

-- Jay Beattie.







Municipalities employ (or retain) Solicitors or Corporation
Counsel (or what have you, depending on local parlance).
Heck the US of A has a Solicitor General. It's not an
unusual term.

--
Andrew Muzi
** www.yellowjersey.org/
** Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I know -- in the US, "solicitor" is one of the many dopey
equity/law hang-over terms. I'm a proctor in Admiralty,
not to be confused with a proctologist.

Around here, some lawyers write "Esq." after their names.
Its comes across as a pompous affectation.



Some engineers have cards with "PE" prominently following their name.
Some don't. meh.

PE = (licensed) Professional Engineer. It's not a self-granted designation.

Most engineers don't bother attaining the PE license, and most could not
qualify. The requirements are pretty strict, the candidate has to pass
two day-long qualifying exams which are notoriously tough.

And most engineers' work is done only for their employing company, so
the PE license isn't required. The PE is needed for projects involving
public safety (which mostly involve Civil Engineers) and for
credential-happy academia.

When I took the final day-long exam, there were gainfully employed
engineers saying this would be their fifth time attempting it.

AFAIK, a lawyer's "Esq." title means exactly the same thing as
"Attorney." It confers no proof of competence.

Well, except that to practice as an Attorney one needs to have a law
degree and have passed the state "bar examination" and be licensed to
practice in the state you are practicing in.

OK, I should have said "no _extra_ proof of competence.

How much more do you want?

A lawyer has to have a Bachelor's Degree, then he has to graduated
from Law School, roughly speaking equal to a Master's Degree. Then he
has to pass the State Bar Examination, usually a 2 day affair, then he
has to qualify for his state license which may encompass consideration
of more then his legal studies. California licensing requirements, for
example, include "All applicants must go through a background check
and receive a positive moral character determination. " and other
states have similar requirements.


--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 06 Sep 2020 11:50:01 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 9/5/2020 6:30 PM, sms wrote:
On 9/5/2020 9:19 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

You're lucky when you can just clear out the junk -- like a whole
chapter on placement and operation of telegraph offices.Â* Most of the
time, you have to replace the chapter with something new. Coming up
with something new means: (1) stealing from another
state/jurisdiction/model act, etc., or (2) drafting something new. New
stuff is a lot of work and has unintended consequences 50% of the
time. It can be time consuming. I'm sure the City of Cupertino would
want only the finest, custom built ordinances.

Most of the time it's a lot more complicated than Frank makes it out to
be. You have to think of every possible unintended consequence, every
source of potential liability, etc..

Oh, please! You were talking about removing the unenforced ordinance
requiring bicycle licenses, and some unspecified sign ordinance. Exactly
how are those complicated? Spending $3000 to research such a thing is a
waste of public money.

Frank, as you should appreciate, 'the law', especial council ordinances
can be full of "sump pumps*", which when they stop operating/no longer
exist, can lead to unforseen (aka no one remembers why it is there)
consequences.

SMS's real problem is just another demonstration why people dispise and
loath "politcal actors".

I've been at least somewhat involved in the writing or revising of
probably 20 laws and ordinances. Yes, vocabulary and phrasing is
important. Yes, you have to be careful.

But the language is English. It can generally be understood by people
who don't charge thousands of dollars.

Aahh, the old "simple and Wrong" result as demonstrated by many
'conspiracy" nutters these days.

* The 747 aircraft maintenance facility at Mascot Airport in Sydney,
Australia, is built on reclaimed marsh land that requires 24x7 pumps to
keep some very expensive machinery safe from seepage.

On 05/09/2020 18:43, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/5/2020 11:19 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 8:23:23 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski
wrote:
On 9/5/2020 1:34 AM, sms wrote:
On 9/4/2020 6:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

And if the ordinance was unclear, why did the City Council pass it?

It had been on the books for decades, but not enforced. Just like the
ordinance requiring bicycle licenses. We should probably go through all
the ordinances and get rid of the ones that no longer make sense, but
that would be a huge expensive effort.

...
Having to deal with this kind of petty stuff is maddening but I think
that in most cities there are a just a few people that cause the most
work for City Staff, and cost the most money, with their antics. Just
looking into the sign ordinance probably cost us $3000 of attorney time
since we contract out those services.

I don't see how rescinding bad or outmoded ordinances has to involve
thousands of dollars of attorney time.

I read our village ordinances and found that there were around a dozen
terrible bicycle ordinances, such as requiring cyclists to ride on
sidewalks, forcing cyclists to walk across certain intersections,
prohibitions against children cycling, etc.

I wrote a white paper briefly explaining how these were detrimental and
how they violated state law. (Ohio law prohibits ordinances that
fundamentally disagree with Ohio traffic laws.) After meeting with the
president of Council I mailed that paper to the mayor, the council
members and the village solicitor, who was a genuine lawyer.

The solicitor reacted most strongly, saying "We need to repeal these as
an emergency measure!" The ordinances were repealed immediately. Cost to
the village was zero.

Solicitor? I have a sign on my door saying no solicitors.

As you know, an emergency measure is just out of cycle legislation or
legislation with an earlier effective date. Emergencies get declared
all the time to move up the effective date of legislation.

You're lucky when you can just clear out the junk -- like a whole
chapter on placement and operation of telegraph offices.Â* Most of the
time, you have to replace the chapter with something new. Coming up
with something new means: (1) stealing from another
state/jurisdiction/model act, etc., or (2) drafting something new. New
stuff is a lot of work and has unintended consequences 50% of the
time. It can be time consuming. I'm sure the City of Cupertino would
want only the finest, custom built ordinances.

-- Jay Beattie.







Municipalities employ (or retain) Solicitors or Corporation Counsel (or
what have you, depending on local parlance). Heck the US of A has a
Solicitor General. It's not an unusual term.

Is that better than a Major Solicitor?

On 9/6/2020 6:47 PM, news18 wrote:

snip

Aahh, the old "simple and Wrong" result as demonstrated by many
'conspiracy" nutters these days.

Exactly. And on local City Councils, which are largely volunteer
positions, you don't generally have a bunch of lawyers like you do in
state legislatures, the council members are more representative of the
local population.

We have one very good lawyer and four engineers on our City Council.
There's definitely a learning curve for the engineers in terms of the law.

But engineers have long understood the "simple and wrong" narrative that
is promoted by people like Frank and Tom that lack the understanding of
how government actually works.

There's a learning curve for the lawyer as well, who doesn't have the
background in many of the more technical issues that we have to deal
with, but despite all the lawyer jokes, lawyers from good law schools
like Harvard (or Northwestern!) are quick studies.

We're pretty fortunate in my City that we have a very educated
population and most of the residents are willing to understand that
things are not as simple as we all wish they were. But we still have
people that insist "it's a simple problem to solve" when it's anything
but simple. If I get re-elected, I'll have the lawyer on Council for two
more years and then we are on our own unless another experienced lawyer
decides to run.

Most residents don’t want to have to become experts in state legislative
policy, real estate speculation, affordable housing, tax policy, or
transportation systems, that’s the job of their elected leaders. That’s
why it’s so important to elect Council members that are policy wonks,
that understand these complex issues, and that advocate for the best
interests of residents.

* The 747 aircraft maintenance facility at Mascot Airport in Sydney,
Australia, is built on reclaimed marsh land that requires 24x7 pumps to
keep some very expensive machinery safe from seepage.

I guess it can go back to marshland soon now that 747s are being
retired. It was a great airplane but four engine planes are too
expensive to operate. Airbus has cancelled the A380 as well.

On 9/6/2020 9:17 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 20:34:21 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/6/2020 7:05 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 6 Sep 2020 12:08:57 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 9/6/2020 11:58 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/6/2020 10:43 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/5/2020 5:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 9:43:03 AM UTC-7, AMuzi
wrote:
On 9/5/2020 11:19 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 5, 2020 at 8:23:23 AM UTC-7,
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/5/2020 1:34 AM, sms wrote:
On 9/4/2020 6:26 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

And if the ordinance was unclear, why did the City
Council pass it?

It had been on the books for decades, but not
enforced. Just like the
ordinance requiring bicycle licenses. We should
probably go through all
the ordinances and get rid of the ones that no longer
make sense, but
that would be a huge expensive effort.

...
Having to deal with this kind of petty stuff is
maddening but I think
that in most cities there are a just a few people that
cause the most
work for City Staff, and cost the most money, with
their antics. Just
looking into the sign ordinance probably cost us $3000
of attorney time
since we contract out those services.

I don't see how rescinding bad or outmoded ordinances
has to involve
thousands of dollars of attorney time.

I read our village ordinances and found that there were
around a dozen
terrible bicycle ordinances, such as requiring cyclists
to ride on
sidewalks, forcing cyclists to walk across certain
intersections,
prohibitions against children cycling, etc.

I wrote a white paper briefly explaining how these were
detrimental and
how they violated state law. (Ohio law prohibits
ordinances that
fundamentally disagree with Ohio traffic laws.) After
meeting with the
president of Council I mailed that paper to the mayor,
the council
members and the village solicitor, who was a genuine
lawyer.

The solicitor reacted most strongly, saying "We need to
repeal these as
an emergency measure!" The ordinances were repealed
immediately. Cost to
the village was zero.

Solicitor? I have a sign on my door saying no solicitors.

As you know, an emergency measure is just out of cycle
legislation or legislation with an earlier effective
date. Emergencies get declared all the time to move up
the effective date of legislation.

You're lucky when you can just clear out the junk --
like a whole chapter on placement and operation of
telegraph offices.Â* Most of the time, you have to
replace the chapter with something new. Coming up with
something new means: (1) stealing from another
state/jurisdiction/model act, etc., or (2) drafting
something new. New stuff is a lot of work and has
unintended consequences 50% of the time. It can be time
consuming. I'm sure the City of Cupertino would want
only the finest, custom built ordinances.

-- Jay Beattie.







Municipalities employ (or retain) Solicitors or Corporation
Counsel (or what have you, depending on local parlance).
Heck the US of A has a Solicitor General. It's not an
unusual term.

--
Andrew Muzi
Â*Â* www.yellowjersey.org/
Â*Â* Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I know -- in the US, "solicitor" is one of the many dopey
equity/law hang-over terms. I'm a proctor in Admiralty,
not to be confused with a proctologist.

Around here, some lawyers write "Esq." after their names.
Its comes across as a pompous affectation.



Some engineers have cards with "PE" prominently following their name.
Some don't. meh.

PE = (licensed) Professional Engineer. It's not a self-granted designation.

Most engineers don't bother attaining the PE license, and most could not
qualify. The requirements are pretty strict, the candidate has to pass
two day-long qualifying exams which are notoriously tough.

And most engineers' work is done only for their employing company, so
the PE license isn't required. The PE is needed for projects involving
public safety (which mostly involve Civil Engineers) and for
credential-happy academia.

When I took the final day-long exam, there were gainfully employed
engineers saying this would be their fifth time attempting it.

AFAIK, a lawyer's "Esq." title means exactly the same thing as
"Attorney." It confers no proof of competence.

Well, except that to practice as an Attorney one needs to have a law
degree and have passed the state "bar examination" and be licensed to
practice in the state you are practicing in.

OK, I should have said "no _extra_ proof of competence.

How much more do you want?

A lawyer has to have a Bachelor's Degree, then he has to graduated
from Law School, roughly speaking equal to a Master's Degree. Then he
has to pass the State Bar Examination, usually a 2 day affair, then he
has to qualify for his state license which may encompass consideration
of more then his legal studies. California licensing requirements, for
example, include "All applicants must go through a background check
and receive a positive moral character determination. " and other
states have similar requirements.

You're confused.

What you wrote above applies to all lawyers in a state. If one of those
lawyers appends "Esq." to his name, it does not indicate that he has any
training, experience, skill or certification beyond that of a lawyer who
appends "Atty." or something similar.

If an engineer can legally append "PE" to his name, it means he has not
only earned the requisite degree, but he has met certain extra
requirements for work experience, has submitted appropriate references
attesting to his character and competence, and has passed two different
8 hour tests that most engineers cannot pass.

The PE license is evidence that an engineer is likely to have knowledge
and skills greater than an engineer without the PE license. And indeed,
there are engineering positions and projects that are forbidden to
non-PE engineers.

Most engineers do not attempt to qualify for the PE. I know there are
excellent engineers who don't carry that license. But personally, almost
all the most brilliant engineers I knew had earned their PE licenses.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/7/2020 11:45 AM, sms wrote:
On 9/6/2020 6:47 PM, news18 wrote:

snip

Aahh, the old "simple and Wrong" result as demonstrated by many
'conspiracy" nutters these days.

Exactly. And on local City Councils, which are largely volunteer
positions, you don't generally have a bunch of lawyers like you do in
state legislatures, the council members are more representative of the
local population.

We have one very good lawyer and four engineers on our City Council.
There's definitely a learning curve for the engineers in terms of the law.

But engineers have long understood the "simple and wrong" narrative that
is promoted by people like Frank and Tom that lack the understanding of
how government actually works.

There's a learning curve for the lawyer as well, who doesn't have the
background in many of the more technical issues that we have to deal
with, but despite all the lawyer jokes, lawyers from good law schools
like Harvard (or Northwestern!) are quick studies.

We're pretty fortunate in my City that we have a very educated
population and most of the residents are willing to understand that
things are not as simple as we all wish they were. But we still have
people that insist "it's a simple problem to solve" when it's anything
but simple. If I get re-elected, I'll have the lawyer on Council for two
more years and then we are on our own unless another experienced lawyer
decides to run.

Most residents don’t want to have to become experts in state legislative
policy, real estate speculation, affordable housing, tax policy, or
transportation systems, that’s the job of their elected leaders. That’s
why it’s so important to elect Council members that are policy wonks,
that understand these complex issues, and that advocate for the best
interests of residents.

* The 747 aircraft maintenance facility at Mascot Airport in Sydney,
Australia, is built on reclaimed marsh land that requires 24x7 pumps to
keep some very expensive machinery safe from seepage.

I guess it can go back to marshland soon now that 747s are being
retired. It was a great airplane but four engine planes are too
expensive to operate. Airbus has cancelled the A380 as well.

That was a lot of politician verbiage. Why not get specific?

You, Mayor Scharf, mentioned that your city still has an ordinance
requiring bicycle licenses. And you say that ordinance is not enforced.
I think we agree enforcing it would be silly.

So why is that ordinance not yet repealed? What terrible complications
do you fear from a potential repeal? Why would you need to pay an
attorney to examine the consequences of its repeal?


--
- Frank Krygowski