Steel frames and le Tour

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:39:03 -0700 (PDT), Scott
wrote:


Really? No one is doubting that you've seen lots of bikes. I feel
pretty strongly, though, that you have NOT seen every bike ridden by
each rider in this year's TdF.

While I don't think it's necessarily happening this year, given the
long and storied history of riders having their favored frames re-
badged to look like the team's bike, it's certainly not outside the
realm of possiblity that someone is riding a steel frame.

If you are claiming that we can only "know" something by seeing it
with our own eyes or with extremely specific witnesses, then sure, I
don't know it I don't know my car is where I parked it last night, I
don't know that the door to my apartment wasn't spraypainted by some
random vistior and I don't know if the NY Times announced bankruptcy
in the last 30 minutes.

There are still no steel frames in the Tour of France.

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:39:03 -0700 (PDT), Scott
wrote:

Yeah, it's possible someone's on a steel bike. I doubt it, but I
wouldn't be surprised.

Regardless of surprise, you're still wrong.

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:39:03 -0700 (PDT), Scott
wrote:



On a slightly related note, I can tell you that there are plenty of
riders using carbon fiber bikes that were NOT made by their sponsor.
e.g. Gerolsteiner's TT bikes aren't not Specialized bikes, but the
decals sure read "Specialized".

Yeah, it's possible someone's on a steel bike. I doubt it, but I
wouldn't be surprised.

Also, just to cement my arrogance, if you *should* be surprised if
that was true. Extremely surprised. There is zero reason any rider in
the Tour of France should be a on a steel frame and many reasons (both
economic, performance and logistical they should not).

You should be shocked.

On Jul 10, 9:54*am, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:39:03 -0700 (PDT), Scott

wrote:

On a slightly related note, I can tell you that there are plenty of
riders using carbon fiber bikes that were NOT made by their sponsor.
e.g. *Gerolsteiner's TT bikes aren't not Specialized bikes, but the
decals sure read "Specialized".

Yeah, it's possible someone's on a steel bike. *I doubt it, but I
wouldn't be surprised.

Also, just to cement my arrogance, if you *should* be surprised if
that was true. Extremely surprised. *There is zero reason any rider in
the Tour of France should be a on a steel frame and many reasons (both
economic, performance and logistical they should not).

You should be shocked.

Really, you don't think that even a single rider in the field may
actually prefer a steel frame to a carbon fiber frame? And that rider
(should one exist) may be able to get that steel frame for free from
the builder?

It's been done before many, many times by lots of riders. No reason
to definitively conclude that it is not going on now.

Scott schreef:
Really, you don't think that even a single rider in the field may
actually prefer a steel frame to a carbon fiber frame?

I don't.

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

There is zero reason any rider in
the Tour of France should be a on a steel frame and many reasons (both
economic, performance and logistical they should not).

Agreed. They're all way too young to be retro-grouches.

Bret

On Jul 10, 10:01*am, Ted van de Weteringe
wrote:
Scott schreef:

Really, you don't think that even a single rider in the field may
actually prefer a steel frame to a carbon fiber frame?

I don't.

Cool. We know your opinion now. Thanks.

I don't share your opinion. I've ridden numerous carbon fiber
framesets, and with the exception of ONE, I've preferred a good steel
frameset to each of them. For most of them, I've ridden them only
because I'd already had a bunch of money sunk into them and they
weren't so bad as to be unbearable.

All in all, given the choice of the typical off-the-shelf carbon fiber
frame vs a custom steel frame, both provided for free (which is how it
would work with a TdF rider), I'd go with the custom steel. I can not
bring myself to definitively declare without asking each and every one
of them that there are no TdF riders who wouldn't prefer steel.

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:59:53 -0700 (PDT), Scott
wrote:

On Jul 10, 9:54*am, John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:39:03 -0700 (PDT), Scott

wrote:

On a slightly related note, I can tell you that there are plenty of
riders using carbon fiber bikes that were NOT made by their sponsor.
e.g. *Gerolsteiner's TT bikes aren't not Specialized bikes, but the
decals sure read "Specialized".

Yeah, it's possible someone's on a steel bike. *I doubt it, but I
wouldn't be surprised.

Also, just to cement my arrogance, if you *should* be surprised if
that was true. Extremely surprised. *There is zero reason any rider in
the Tour of France should be a on a steel frame and many reasons (both
economic, performance and logistical they should not).

You should be shocked.

Really, you don't think that even a single rider in the field may
actually prefer a steel frame to a carbon fiber frame? And that rider
(should one exist) may be able to get that steel frame for free from
the builder?

It's been done before many, many times by lots of riders.


What's been done?

No reason
to definitively conclude that it is not going on now.

Let's talk epistomology. I can't prove a negative here and I won't
ask you to prove a positive, since you merely said you "wouldnt' be
suprised." I'll assume wouldnt' be surprised means there's a 1 in 10
or many a 1 in 100 or even a 1 in 1000 chance of it happenning.

I'm saying the chance is far, far less than ever the most generous
odds above. Far less than 1 in 1000. Orders of magnitude less.

Now, if something that has a 1 in, say, 10,000 or 1 in a million
chance of happening happens, among 200 riders, you wouldn't be
surprised?

Wow.

And here's a surrogate. Find a single example of a pro tour or
continental level pro team using a steel frame in any UCI-level race
in Europe. Try it. Can you find even one?

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Scott
wrote:

I can not
bring myself to definitively declare without asking each and every one
of them that there are no TdF riders who wouldn't prefer steel.

Do you use that standard of certainty in other aspects of life?

If you lack that standard of certainty, does whatever happens "not
surprise you."

Wow, you're not easily surprised.

On Jul 10, 9:05*am, Bret Wade wrote:
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
There is zero reason any rider in
the Tour of France should be a on a steel frame and many reasons (both
economic, performance and logistical they should not).

Agreed. They're all way too young to be retro-grouches.


Remember when Mercury/Viatel hired all those
Europros and made a big push (just before imploding)?
Their bike sponsor was Lemond and they had
steel bikes, I think this was before Lemond Bikes
got into the aluminum and Dr. Moreau-half-and-half
frames. Anyway, as Mercury began to implode,
I remember an interview in which one of the Eurodogs
was bitching about the backwardness of having to
ride steel frames, as if it was a short step from that
to having to sling your own tubulars over your
shoulder.

Ben
I like steel fine, but I'm not a Europro